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46champ
| | Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2011 - 11:46 am: | 
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Erik had a little advantage in that he was starting with an EPA compliant engine. I wish the folks at Motus good luck but they have a big hill to climb. I also don't understand the reasoning if you have a longitudinal crankshaft why aren't you using shaft drive instead of a friction causing efficiency killing right angle drive. |
Sifo
| | Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2011 - 12:10 pm: |
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I also don't understand the reasoning if you have a longitudinal crankshaft why aren't you using shaft drive instead of a friction causing efficiency killing right angle drive.
At some point you have to make that right angle change of direction. Chain vs. drive shaft both have their pluses and minuses. One big plus of the Chain is that you can easily change the final drive ratio very late in the development process. It's not as easy with a shaft drive. |
Court
| | Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2011 - 12:22 pm: |
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The choice of an EPA compliant engine was a solution to a problem ....... That big algebraic equation wherein time, money, possible and days until we must have income get balanced.
Adding EPA work can easily add two years, non-revenue years, to the equation.
It also, if you play your cards right and know/ understand the rules allows access to some other favorable regulations.
In the " idea to product" flow chart the actual motorcycle is but a node. |
Barker
| | Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2011 - 04:10 pm: |
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LS7-R "small block" vs. KMV4 "baby block" comparison
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Velocity
| | Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2011 - 05:09 pm: |
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The guy that spends a lot on watches can afford a high dollar bike. I have seen watches that can go for 75,000, and up, they are out there. In their garage is Lamborghini, Lee is right it’s proportional. I fit the bill to an extent; I plunked down 2000.00 for a ball watch, and then did not hesitate with 4 other Buells in my garage to buy a 08 1125R. Truth is I’m still struggling with 40,000 for one of the coolest bikes out. It will be interesting to see where they price it.
Scott |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2011 - 05:19 pm: |
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Jeremy,
I'm not talking about the general public.
To repeat...
I also wasn't speaking of the "general public". It's a pity they can't afford insurance and yet interesting that they took the risk of allowing Cathcart and Bayly to take a ride without it. Any other journalists ride the Motus yet? The following quote is from the author of the Motorcycle Daily article on their web site, the link posted on the first page of this thread:
quote:Riding on the two bikes were Motus President Lee Conn and MD contributor/TV Superstar/Action Hero Neale Bayly. Bayly somehow managed to convince Lee and Design Director Brian Case that letting him ride the bike from California to Colorado would be a good idea. I asked for a quick ride on the bike—impossible, said Conn and Case.
"Impossible"? Huh? You'd have been happy to sign a waiver as would most anyone else looking for a test ride, no?
It doesn't seem like the Motus folks are being completely honest. They let that Bayly fellow ride, yet tell a fellow journalist that to allow him to ride it is "impossible."
Seems pretty clear from Cathcart's article, the Motorcycle Daily report and Conn's interview, that the bikes are not yet ready for prime time, and they are looking to protect themselves from any bad press that might result from as yet to be resolved issues. I'd respect them a lot more if they would simply be completely honest and admit that.
I just don't like what I am perceiving as an intentional lack of honesty. It doesn't speak well of the people or the business they are looking to develop. Not does the idea that achieving high quality is "really really simple.}
Lee Conn started a company, MediRest, at age 23 that when he sold it, it was running between $10M and $20M in revenue.
http://www.medirestinc.com/
Likely a huge recipient of medicare and medicaid subsidies. |
Ft_bstrd
| | Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2011 - 06:20 pm: |
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I'm not talking about the general public.
If that were true, then they'd be letting folks have a test ride, no caveats needed.
Considering they ARE letting the press ride a PROTOTYPE bike, as was stated in articles and by me previously, who are these "folks" you speak of if NOT the general public?
Motus MST-R Prototype - First Ride
"Allowing a journalist to ride a raw and unfinished prototype motorcycle is practically unheard of. Very few companies would risk this early exposure, especially with someone who will publish his opinions. It’s akin to a sculptor showing an art critic a block of marble and saying, “What do you think of my masterpiece so far?” So, getting the opportunity to ride Motus Motorcycle’s MST-R sport-tourer was a unique opportunity and helped me gain considerable insight not only into the Birmingham, Alabama-based company but also the possibilities in this modern age of computer-aided design and small-batch manufacturing."
Alan Cathcart ALSO rode the bike and has a forthcoming article in Motorcycle News. In the words of Lee Conn "Cathcart rode the shit out of it. Look at the ends of the pegs!"
So considering that I have not only stated that the bike has been ridden by the press AND posted articles from these press rides, just who ISN'T getting to ride the Motus bike that you'd like to ride it that ISN'T the "general public"?
What lack of honesty are you seeing here?
Do you KNOW what the circumstances were for their denial of the ride? Maybe they didn't like the guy. Maybe it didn't fit into their schedule. Maybe it was impossible because they were out of gas.
You are attributing to them negative characteristics based upon an excerpt from an article from a jilted rider?
So if they deny ONE person a ride they are denying everyone? Maybe they didn't think they wanted the Motorcycle Daily folks would provide a fair and balanced review of the bike.
So you are going to knock him about quality being "really really simple" based upon an impromptu interview on a cell phone captured by the host of a Nashville local bulletin board after Conn had ridden 20 miles with only about 2-3 hours of sleep?
Kinda harsh don't you think?
Likely a huge recipient of medicare and medicaid subsidies.
And your point? |
Ft_bstrd
| | Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2011 - 06:31 pm: |
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Regarding the chain vs. belt vs. shaft question.
That was specifically asked and answered by Brian Case at the Nashville showing.
Regarding the belt, based upon the gearing of the transmission and the sprocket space they had available in the frame, they were going to have to place an 18" sprocket on the rear 17" wheel. It immediately ruled out a belt. They were also concerned about the torque requirements of the belt for that motor.
On the shaft drive, they didn't completely rule one out but they did say there were some serious factors preventing them from using it initially.
First, they would have to design one from scratch. You can't just pull one off the shelf. The designs are all patented, and they simply didn't want to have to spend engine and chassis time developing a shaft drive.
Second, the transmission would not have been as compact running it longitudinally vs. transverse. The transmission is VERY small. It is wider than it is long. Running it longitudinally wouldn't fit in the design space they have in the chassis.
A shaft drive would have added unsprung weight to the rear end. Based upon their chassis designs, they simply didn't want to have the extra weight to combat in the design.
Shaft drives are more complex and more expensive. Adding the shaft drive increased the overall cost of the bike.
Neither the belt nor the shaft allowed for the gearing ratios to be changed easily.
Sport bikes have chains.
I wouldn't want a bike with a shaft. Some people won't have a bike without one.
To each his own. |
Court
| | Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2011 - 07:09 pm: |
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Jeremy:
I do, very much , enjoy reading your report. I like hearing some of the thoughts and thought processes. It really is amazingly complex.
Thanks for sharing |
Sifo
| | Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2011 - 07:19 pm: |
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+1 on the final drive info. I would love to have a bike with a shaft drive for the same reason I like the belt drive. If you want to play with the gearing though, it's much easier to convert from belt to chain than shaft to chain. I hate having to touch the chain on the Triumph even though today's chains are a world better than they used to be.
Very cool stuff about the engineering choices that are made. |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, August 05, 2011 - 01:21 am: |
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Will respond in detail later via PC. Phone blindness is setting in.
The 200 bikes/yr goal pretty much kills it for me. That was a shocking thing to hear.
What matter medicare subsidized business?
Not true free market.
To put it in blunt Ayn Rand terms, looters and moochers suck. |
86129squids
| | Posted on Friday, August 05, 2011 - 01:47 am: |
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DingDingDing, next up in the ring...
Jeremy vs. Blake!
Let the BW Smackdown begin!!!
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Ft_bstrd
| | Posted on Friday, August 05, 2011 - 01:48 am: |
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Not true free market.
Not true at all. His company had to compete with every other company that has goods or services eligible for medicare reimbursement.
So a physician who accepts medicare doesn't compete or is a moocher?
What about dialysis clinics?
Looks like there are at least 10 competitive medical equipment companies in Birmingham:
or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=5d88b7ed6b0b06ee&biw=1280&bih=693 ,http://www.google.com/search?q=medical+equipment+ birmingham&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE -Address&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7ADFA_en#q=medical+equipmen t+birmingham&hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-Addr ess&rlz=1I7ADFA_en&prmd=ivnscm&source=univ&tbm=plc s&tbo=u&ei=VYM7To2zLsz2gAfBh43PBg&sa=X&oi=local_gr oup&ct=more-results&resnum=1&ved=0CH4QtwMwAA&bav=o n.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=5d88b7ed6b0b06ee&biw=1280&bih =693 |
Ft_bstrd
| | Posted on Friday, August 05, 2011 - 01:50 am: |
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No smackdown. Simply a debate.
Blake's lost. He's just to stubborn to admit it.
Yet.  |
86129squids
| | Posted on Friday, August 05, 2011 - 02:00 am: |
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Just my $.02...
A final drive is a final drive.
We all know the arguments about chain, shaft, belt... seems the Motus guys are focusing on more important stuff at this point in their...
journey.
Blake, just a humble request, but as a moderator, oops- actually THE moderator, could you be more moderate? As in, moderate?
Fun. Noun, adjective, and verb.
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86129squids
| | Posted on Friday, August 05, 2011 - 02:03 am: |
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Wow- synchronicity!
Jeremy- lookin' forward to riding with you again soon!
Blake- looking forward to riding with you someday!
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Blake
| | Posted on Monday, August 08, 2011 - 01:16 pm: |
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Jeremy,
When folks don't have to pay anything or very little out of pocket for a product or service, the market is not truly free. It is artificially propped up. Yes, this is exactly the problem with America's health care system today.
When folks have to spend their own money, they look for the best value that meets their needs and budget.
With gov subsidies eliminating all or most personal cost and setting the price point, the only competition is in convincing the customer that your product is better than the others or that you can deliver more quickly.
In a true free market, the price is also a HUGE part of the equation.
To answer your question, yes, doctors accepting gov money are indeed part of the moocher looter system, especially those who support the whole gov't-funded entitlement system. Are they not taking the money of some to provide services to others?
I'm surprised you disagree, floored really.
The lack of honesty I perceive is in allowing one journalist to ride, one TV personality to ride, but then telling another journalist it is impossible, then telling you that you can't test ride due to insurance reasons.
I don't buy it.
The reason they are only allowing a very select few (Bayly and Cathcart), ride the bike is because the bike is not yet ready. I don't know why they just don't admit that; most likely they are afraid of the effect on prospective investors.
Whatever the reason, they aren't being honest in my view.
I'm rooting for the success of another American motorcycle and especially an American motorcycle engine; but for me personally it's not my kind of bike and way out of my price range. |
Ft_bstrd
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2011 - 06:26 pm: |
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When folks don't have to pay anything or very little out of pocket for a product or service, the market is not truly free. It is artificially propped up. Yes, this is exactly the problem with America's health care system today.
When folks have to spend their own money, they look for the best value that meets their needs and budget.
With gov subsidies eliminating all or most personal cost and setting the price point, the only competition is in convincing the customer that your product is better than the others or that you can deliver more quickly.
In a true free market, the price is also a HUGE part of the equation.
To answer your question, yes, doctors accepting gov money are indeed part of the moocher looter system, especially those who support the whole gov't-funded entitlement system. Are they not taking the money of some to provide services to others?
I'm surprised you disagree, floored really.
There isn't a single portion of the medical system from pharmaceuticals to equipment, from physicians to hospitals that doesn't have some portion of their sales paid for by some form of state or Federal funding. I don't blame the participants for providing goods and services eligible to be purchased with those government funds any more than I blame the people who use these funds.
I blame the government for overstepping the enumerated powers granted to it in providing these benefits.
Why blame the lifestock for feading from the trough and not the person who filled it?
Were there not the market opportunity to provide these goods and services at a profit to the creator of the goods and services, the providers wouldn't exist.
I do not support the monstrosity that is Social Security or Medicare, but you can't expect individuals to not create businesses to take advantage of a market opportunity where one exists.
I do support an effort to keep Washington from filling the trough.
The lack of honesty I perceive is in allowing one journalist to ride, one TV personality to ride, but then telling another journalist it is impossible, then telling you that you can't test ride due to insurance reasons.
I don't buy it.
The reason they are only allowing a very select few (Bayly and Cathcart), ride the bike is because the bike is not yet ready. I don't know why they just don't admit that; most likely they are afraid of the effect on prospective investors.
Whatever the reason, they aren't being honest in my view.
I was told about the insurance by the Katech rep regarding the insurance not from either Conn or Case. If there is a "lie", it didn't come from Conn or Case.
Other than the article from this one press person who was denied a ride, do you have any other example of deception or dishonesty?
Do you know this press person personally? Is he credible and trustworthy?
Do you know Conn or Case personally? Can you verify without question their dishonesty?
Do you know with 100% certainty the circumstances of the denial of the ride?
Can you confirm with 100% certainty that the words stated by this press person are those actually spoken by Conn or Case or are you depending on the statements of this individual as hear say?
You and I have both witnessed character assassination on this very bulletin board over issues just like this. Isolated third parties making character judgments without any direct experience or understanding of the specific details of the incident or the participants.
I don't know this press person. I have never met him. I can't speak to his honesty or integrity. He may in fact be telling the truth.
From his perspective.
I have met both Lee Conn and Brian Case. I have spoken several times with Lee Conn and twice with Brian Case.
Grant total, I've spent approximately 10 hours in their company with another couple dozen emails.
I haven't perceived ANY dishonesty from either of these people. They seem very genuine and trustworthy. |
Brumbear
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2011 - 10:41 pm: |
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I like the bike a whole lot. I wonder how it will crash though hate to think like that but it sure looks like it will brake a lot of expensive stuff when it bounces. One of the great little side bars we get when we bought our Buells they crash good. I didn't buy it for that but now I look for it because I know I have it. Still in all I really like the machine.
Dave |
1324
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2011 - 07:20 am: |
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Why do all these threads derail into social program dissertations? Personally, I am eagerly watching Motus from the sidelines. Katech has done some amazing engine work and Pratt & Miller has very credible engineering prowess. Motus has surrounded themselves with others who have skills far surpassing their own, which is the first step of ensuring 'success'. I respect their vision and wish them well. Rome wasn't built in a day, nor was it built by one person. In my opinion, Motus intends to embody what Buell ownership is all about: unique solutions through innovation where challenges are taken head-on. Kudos to Motus for making their dreams a reality. |
Glitch
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2011 - 09:55 am: |
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The bike is so tiny, but it looks so big until someone sits on it, or stands next to it.
I'd rock one, after I stripped it down all StreetFighter.
The engine I'd love to build an Arial Atom around that!
And now for some fuel for the fire.
I read Erik Buell said he wants government intervention with regards to vehicle weight, to help get rid of bigger vehicles that crowd the public roads.
Free Market?
More regulation to adjust the market, that's what we need!
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Ft_bstrd
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2011 - 10:17 am: |
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Glitch, I really would prefer a naked version. After the overwhelming response over the MST-R as a naked bike (the one wrapped in white and marked "Prototype") at Bike Week in Florida and at the initial public showing at Barber, they began considering a naked version more seriously.
At the showing at Bumpus, Brian Case and I spoke specifically about how a naked version would be created. The front fairing has a ram air inlet that surrounds the front headlight (you can see the openings if you know what you are looking for). Those inlets run to ducts that feed through the frame directly into the intake box.
Brian said that they have already started designing a modified fairing that would incorporate miniature ram air inlets and radiator cover. From the prototype seen at Barber, the headlight, even as an afterthought, looked great without the fairing. With a little work, it could look great!
The tail section is also not integrated but is modular. For a naked, I would prefer a much shorter tail. One that looks more like the Speed Triple would look fantastic and wouldn't be hard to do.
It is a tiny bike, but when you sit on it, it feels very roomy and comfortable. I would want a different seat than either the high seat or the low seat they currently have on the demo models.
The thing I hated about the 07+ Uly seat was that it was narrow in the front and the cut of it tended to push you to that narrow point. My balls went to sleep.
I would want a thicker seat with a wider front section. I don't need the narrow cut out section for ground clearance:
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Brumbear
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2011 - 03:43 pm: |
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there is a naked looking one in the daytona vid I think |
Brumbear
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2011 - 03:45 pm: |
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http://www.youtube.com/motusmotorcycles#p/a/f/0/cw GDcSCpVuc |
Ft_bstrd
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2011 - 06:03 pm: |
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Yep, that's the MST-R that was naked at the Barber showing just a few days before they headed down to Daytona.
Like I said, it wasn't meant to be a naked, but it looked pretty darn good as one.
It really shows how tiny the bike really is. |
Hughlysses
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2011 - 07:32 pm: |
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I would want a thicker seat with a wider front section. I don't need the narrow cut out section for ground clearance:
Wow- the front of that thing is like a bicycle. The good thing is though, you can only make the seat as narrow as the frame; you can make it as wide as you want regardless of the frame width. |
Ft_bstrd
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2011 - 07:45 pm: |
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There was a lady at the showing at Bumpus. She was able to more than flat foot the bike because of the seat and frame configuration.
The gray housing you see at the bottom of the picture is the case that covers the transmission. As you can see, it's wide, but not very long. It's only as long as the diameter of the round clutch housing.
There are 18 bolts to gain direct access to the clutch. Behind that is the cassette transmission. |
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