| Author | Message | ||
     Mr_grumpy |
We have loads of the things here in Europe. As the law stands, the registered owner/keeper of the vehicle is legally responsible. However if somebody else was driving (such as his 80 year old auntie who has a licence but hasn't owned a car for over 50 years) they can take the points hit & the fine. You can actually pay people to do it for you but its highly illegal & if you're caught, you can go to jail. For company owned vehicles, the firm are legally obliged to disclose the drivers details. Rental companies will just pay any fine & stick it on your credit card, along with a service charge. (Read the small print) As for how to deal with them, as DD says drive legal & you've no problem. Alternatively there's the "collar" a tyre hung on the camera box, filled with petrol & set alight. There's the old standard, 12 bore. & amongst others my personal favourite, Poke a hole in the box with a cordless drill & fill with a large can of insulating expanding mousse. you know the stuff that sets hard after it's increased it's volume a hundredfold Radar detectors are outlawed in France & many other countries with serious penalties for contravention. I would have thought that in the US they'd have been shot to sh*t in short order. | ||
| Danger_dave |
'Saint' DD, thanks. | ||
| Ratbuell |
In Maryland, they take your photo from behind (that's how they got the tag on my Uly). It's a flat fine, no points...precisely because they can't prove/disprove who was operating the vehicle. Does that sound like revenue generation to me? Sure does. But fact is, I was speeding, so I took my medicine. No big deal. | ||
| Thumper74 |
I have some serious issues with being charged for a crime when 'they' can't prove I was the one breaking the law. This is the assumption that I'm guilty until proven innocent... I like the time I refused to let CPD search my saddlebags. They took me into custody and searched my stuff anyway for their 'safety'. (Message edited by Thumper74 on June 19, 2011) | ||
| Rkc00 |
but I am ok with that those may save my life someday Or get you killed. I stopped at one last week to avoid getting a ticket. The day before I was behind a car that got to the light about the same spot when the yellow changed and continued thru the light and sure enough the camera went off. So I decided to not go thru the yellow and stop. The car behind me was not going to stop and did not. Slammed on her braces but went thru the intersection any way. Lucky I stopped on the double yellow line or I would have been killed. She missed my right bag by an inch. Somebody on a motorcycle will get killed at one of these red light cameras one of these days. Once more people know where these are and start to stop on the short yellow lights to avoid the ticket the more rear end accidents there will be. Hope it is not one of us. | ||
| Just_ziptab |
It's so simple.....look ahead! I never trust a green light(local) that has been green for more than 20 seconds. Simply amazing how many people go balls to the wall to a red light ahead......when they can just cruise to it and hit it green when they get there. | ||
| Fahren |
Hinged LP holder (cable operated) ? Just thinking "out loud." | ||
| Ulyranger |
This is cheap revenue generation, plain and simple. Also unethical as heck in my book, regardless of the motives. Violations in NY need to be witnessed by the arresting officer, or corroborated by a sworn witness when the officer reasonably believes a crime has been committed. I do not habitually speed, run lights and generally adhere to the VTL, but I'd fight one of these "camera tickets" just on the principle of it. I'm not a big fan of the mobile plate readers on cruisers either. Makes for lazy police work, no more vigilant officers looking for actual violators. Using their senses and experience to develop probable cause. Just fire up a computer and let it tell you where the $$ can be collected. | ||
| Trojan |
My point was that even if you are driving legally, you can still get they ticket. If you are looking ahead properly surely you will see either a speed limit sign or a set of traffic lights. In both cases if you are riding properly you should be prepared to slow down or stop, so no excuses if you get hit with a fine for contravention. Riding legally and riding safely are not always the same thing  | ||
| Froggy |
Nope, you can say that all you want, but they do like to place them where the speedlimit drops with no warning from 45mph to 25mph to catch you off guard if you aren't familiar with the area. Then they take half a second off the yellow light time, so you could be in a situation where you can't stop in time for the red being that you are too close to the light, so you go for it, then get the ticket in the mail a few weeks later. | ||
| Trojan |
but they do like to place them where the speedlimit drops with no warning from 45mph to 25mph to catch you off guard if you aren't familiar with the area. If you are saying that there are no warning signs telling of the change in speed limit then you have a point. However if there are signs in place and you go through it too fast you haven't been looking ahead very well. Not being local to the area shouldn't make a difference. Likewise at traffic lights - you should approach them EXPECTING to change colour and to stop, rather than thinking you can get through before they change. I see so many people actually speed up when the approach traffic signals thinking they can beat the amber light, it is no wonder we have so many accidents at junctions. | ||
| Hootowl |
I have a different view. An intersection near my home saw at least 5 cars (in each lane) go through on a red during periods of heavy traffic. After they installed the ticket cameras, this stopped completely. I follow the rules. The camera makes other people follow the rules. | ||
| Fahren |
"She would of been a good woman," said The Misfit, "if it had been somebody there to shoot her every minute of her life." — Flannery O'Connor | ||
| Froggy |
Correct, you can be cruising for a few miles, all the speed limit signs look the same, then the next one happens to be a bit lower than the previous speed. The only times I've ever seen warning were for school zones, and on the highway when it drops from 65 to 55, or construction zones. Some highways even have dynamic speed limits that are posted on electronic signs, but I've never heard of any speed cameras on them yet.
If I was on the bike, I would probably end up being one of those 5 cars just to avoid being roadkill. | ||
| Hootowl |
Until you get T-boned by the rush of cars coming in from the side on their green light, pissed off that the other drivers are ignoring the red light. I'll follow the rules and take my chances I guess. | ||
| 01_turbowolf |
you should see some of the lights here. you pretty much have to know the lights not to get caught. the one leaving my house goes from red to green, yellow, and red halfway through the intersection, and yet the one a mile away takes 3 minutes to do a full change. all the lights around here are different from each other, and most have cameras. i could see someone unfamiliar with this area having a problem with it. | ||
| Hootowl |
I should note that the yellows at this intersection are longer than most. Plenty of warning. | ||
| Oldog |
would it make sense to add to the point Matt makes, be prepared to leave the road, some years ago, I stopped riding near a decade, I was narrowly missed by a cager I was stopped at a light and at the last second I moved out of the way, ... | ||
| Rpm4x4 |
I wish all lighted intersections were round abouts. I love round abouts sooo much. I never have to worry about being rearended or sideswiped and in the larger ones its fun to carry some nice lean angle. As far as the cameras are concerned I dont like them being unmanned. Its just too big brother like for me. | ||
| Dfbutler |
What happened to the Constitutional right to confront your accuser? | ||
| Greg_e |
Dfbutler hits the point I was trying to think of earlier but couldn't remember the exact words. That is why some state governments are trying to outlaw the photo tickets. | ||
| Azxb9r |
In Az. they have to have a positive ID of the driver, so if you wear something that covers your face(i.e. full face helmet,ski mask, burka} you won't get sent the ticket. Here the camera takes a picture of you coming and going so you get drivers face and license. The ones set up at intersections actually take a video clip. My wife got a ticket in the mail a few months ago for running a red light. She was making a right turn on a red, and did a rolling stop. Going to the courts web site and watching the video clip made it obvious that it would not be worth fighting...the law states that you must come to a complete stop before making your turn. This is the type of thing that a real live cop may have chosen to overlook, while the camera is zero tolerance but... As far as facing your accuser is concerned, the pictures and video are pretty damning. | ||
| Court |
>>>>What happened to the Constitutional right to confront your accuser? The erosion started about 40 years ago when states (my personal experience was in Kansas) started issuing speeding tickets based on what a pilot in an airplane told a trooper on the ground . . basically the text book definition of "hearsay". Jurisdictions have created a number of fancy dance steps to get around the legalities . . . all are weak at best. | ||
| Darth_villar |
Keep in mind not all of them run off radar. The ones in AZ at least are tripped by sensors in the pavement/road surface. They can be completely evaded by a motorcycle (including the highway ones that were taken out of commission). I personally think red light cameras can greatly increase safety, but speeding tickets are just for generating revenue. As I ride pretty much exclusively, and always wear a helmet with a tinted visor, I don't really have to worry about the cameras. EDIT: I still can't understand how a police officer can pull you over for nothing, say you were speeding, and you have absolutely nothing you can do about it. A couple years ago I got pulled over after entering a construction zone ( in Michigan...), I was clocked prior to entering, followed about a half mile, then pulled over. I would have taken it to court but apparently the Hudsonville judge always sides with the police. Phil (Message edited by darth_villar on June 20, 2011) | ||
| Trojan |
Correct, you can be cruising for a few miles, all the speed limit signs look the same, then the next one happens to be a bit lower than the previous speed. That is what I mean. The signs DO change so you have to ride accordingly. If the sign gives a lower speed limit than the previous ones it is up to YOU to see it, not up to them to warn you about it. In this country we don't have any advance warnings that speed limits will change, so you only know when you see the sign telling you that you are now in a 30,50,60 or 70 zone. However if you read the road and your surroundings correctly you can normally tell when the speed limit is about to change before you even see the signs. For example when approaching built up areas, schools, accident black spots etc you shoudl expect to see a change in the speed limit and ride accordingly. | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
on Courts point of legal wrangling. here in floriduh most citations are a CIVIL issue meaning not criminal which means that you have no rights to due process that you would if charged with a crime. we are seeing the cameras go up here and have been for years. more in some places than others. the local news stations are talking about them and the dangers they present such as reported above some folks stopping vs others not. they are a change which is i think what causes them to be dangerous. as they are there and folks are reminded to follow the rules the danger i think will decrease. I HATE THEM. they have no ability to account for the total situation. such as a light that will not pick up a bike..... or other situations i have found. they are a cash cow. they spend $5k(pure guess) putting one camera up at a cherry picked corner and wham i'd be willing to bet it's paid for itself in 2-3 months tops after that i'd wager that 85% of the revenue from that cam is gonna be profit. | ||
| Court |
They are pure revenue and . . . (this is strictly anecdotal, I have no facts) SEEMS to be resulting in folks slamming on their brakes on yellow lights. They have peppered the West Side Highway here in NYC and I see, on a daily basis, some amazing events. I noticed, as I went through photos last night, that I accidentally got one of a bike running a red light. Yesterday was the semi-official "Motorcycle Amateur Day" and it was like the Joey Chitwood show! The big camera controversy in NYC is now the bus lanes. They've put cameras in the red lanes here in Manhattan. You drive in a bus lane . . you get the ticket in the mail. This one is a game changer. Between the BUS lane, the BIKE lane and the FIRE lane . . . there soon won't be a free lane to drive a car in.  | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
another reason i am glad i live in NE FLoriduh. we have our issues but mostly live and let live. on the bus lanes there is a trial of a bus lane going down a major road near the house. complete waste of pavement. the schedule freq is to long and the ridership to low for it to matter. all it does is confuse people | ||
| Sifo |
Near where I live there were several intersections where you would commonly see 7 to 8 cars going through on the "yellow" (they are running the red). When traffic gets heavy they just keep on going through until the folks with the green push into traffic. The red light cameras have greatly changed that for the better. Before the red light cameras they would just have a long waiting period where everybody is staring at a red light to reduce accidents. People simply adjusted to that and know they can "safely" run the red for a few seconds. As to the question of them being nothing but a revenue generator, I can't disagree more strongly. No doubt that they do generate revenue, but they do so by penalizing violators. Any intelligent human being will adjust their behavior to avoid being penalized. As to the question of facing your accuser, you are free to do so with these cameras. The accuser is the owner/operator of the camera system. You will be fighting against photographic evidence of you violating the law. Our red light cameras also take video to show exactly what you were doing as you ran the red. The photos and video get reviewed by officers before tickets are issued to prevent ticketing things that an officer would normally ignore such as stopping a bit past the line. I keep hearing about shortening the yellows where they put these cameras in. I've never seen that in my area despite claims by people I know. I've asked for specific examples of this and they can't provide any. This make me wonder if this is little more than urban legend. Beyond that shortening the yellow to an unsafe duration would open the municipality to lawsuits for negligently endangering motorists. You know there are plenty of lawyers who would love to go after a negligent municipality. There's lots of money to be awarded there and you are unlikely to find a jury who will be sympathetic toward the government. I don't understand why some feel there should be warning signs that the speed limit is changing. The speed limit signs serve that exact purpose. Next you will be wanting warning signs that you are approaching warning signs. There's a simple solution. Pay attention to your driving. If I miss a posted speed limit change it's my fault. What if that had been a child standing in the road instead? Should there have been a warning sign? | ||
| Toona |
I've thought about installing one of these on my plates. Netbook-Privacy-Filter The plate would be visible to the police or other drivers when followed from behind, but obscure the plate when viewed at an angle... I don't know the legality of installing such a product, but in PA, the plate must be visible/readable at 25 feet. As was told to me by a police officer for having a lightly tinted license plate cover in broad daylight. |
