| Author | Message | ||
     Hootowl |
I'm not seeing how tracks in the desert are inherently bad. Who cares? What harm are they? | ||
| Hootowl |
Neil's footprints are still on the moon. Have we damaged the moon in any meaningful way by landing on it? You know, if you believe we landed on the moon. Animals make trails through the woods, they make trails through the desert. Cities and farms are visible from space. No one is going to convince me that a tire track in the Mohave desert is a thing that can not be endured. The envirowackos are just going to have to deal with it. | ||
| Sifo |
There are things that grow an an incredibly slow pace in deserts. A small patch of stuff that took centuries to grow can be trampled out of existence in seconds by a single unknowing person. I'm guessing the wagon tracks were mentioned, not because they are inherently bad, but to demonstrate how long lasting the effects of what we do can be. | ||
| Sayitaintso |
There are things that grow an an incredibly slow pace in deserts. A small patch of stuff that took centuries to grow can be trampled out of existence in seconds by a single unknowing person. I'm guessing the wagon tracks were mentioned, not because they are inherently bad, but to demonstrate how long lasting the effects of what we do can be. The crossroads where ecofriendly and capitalism meet. Its a prickly issue if ever there was one. ANWR anyone? FL Gulf coast drilling? Appalachian mining where they take the tops off mountains (cant remember the right nome for it)? Nuke waste disposal in a mountain? Commercial farming (pigs, cows, chickens)? The list goes on. It turns almost everyone into a nimby....me included. | ||
| Hootowl |
Oh, I get it, I just don't care if the fleas, spiders, and some plants that are barely clinging to life in a desert have to die or run away from the dozer when it comes in to clear a spot for whatever we want to build there. I don't buy the "fragile" argument. They're not any more fragile than any place else we alter to grow or build stuff. There's almost no native grasses left in the farm belt, but we can feed the entire world with the crops we raise there instead. It's a fair trade. | ||
| Sifo |
To the best of my knowledge ANWR is far more resilient than many of the desert areas. Wise choices do have to be made. We can't continue to grow society without making compromises. Hard line no compromise stances won't lead to anything good. We could just hit the reset button and let nature find her own way again though.  | ||
| Sifo |
Hootowl, There are areas that deserve protection due to uniqueness and fragility. Having said that there's also huge areas of desert that I wouldn't blink at building energy farms of any type IF they are proven to be worthwhile. So far I haven't seen anything that has proven itself. http://www.moabhappenings.com/Archives/hiking0911N eckSpringsLoop.htm
 Cryptos is pretty cool stuff up close. Most folks will walk right through it without having a clue. I feel sorry for those masses. | ||
| Sayitaintso |
Hard line no compromise stances won't lead to anything good. On either side of the issues. Rather than a nuke reset button, how about a 21st century spanish flu? Cut the population back by 1/3 and a whole bunch of stress goes away. But then thats the easy way out. There are plenty of folks much smarter than I am that can figure out answers to what ails us, and hopefully they can get rich in the process. | ||
| Sifo |
On either side of the issues. Of course most of the hard line stances to come from one side of the energy issue. Environmentalists have stopped development of not only petroleum and coal energy, but also virtually all of the green solutions. I'm surprise no has mentioned heat pump systems for residential heating/cooling yet. Great systems that have proven economical benefits. Both sides win with that sort of technology. | ||
| Sayitaintso |
Yep on both counts...if I was building a new house I'd be using a geo based heat pump/exchanger system. | ||
| Hootowl |
heat pumps are just air conditioners. Not very efficient. Now, if you're talking about geothermal, like the moving heat into and out of the ground, that is very efficient. But then you'd be altering the delicate balance of bacterial life that exists underground that depend on a constant temperature to survive. You go pumping all your waste heat in the summer time down there and you'll destroy them! The horror! | ||
| Sifo |
Ground loop heat pump = geothermal EDIT: They do more than air conditioning too. (Message edited by SIFO on April 15, 2011) | ||
| Hootowl |
Yeah, they'll heat too, but they do it the same way...use an electric motor to pump freon. It's more efficient to burn natural gas to generate heat than it is to pump freon to move heat from once place to another, especially if it's near freezing outside. Not much energy out there. | ||
| Sifo |
They actually work great for heat in northern MI. My mom has been in three different houses in northern MI with heat pumps. Much cheaper than other available alternatives. | ||
| Blake |
Jeff, Heat pump efficiency is actually pretty good. They are tough to beat, at least when electricity is not too expensive and temperatures are not too frigid. What's nice is that they don't add too much to the price of a new air conditioner. I just bought a split unit for the shop and added the heat pump for just $150. The price of natural gas has gone up a lot lately. | ||
| Hootowl |
I did qualify my remarks with "especially if it's near freezing outside" I had a heat pump when I lived in Memphis. Didn't work for crap in the winter. The heater had a backup/supplementary electric coil. It was on most of the time. | ||
| Hootowl |
I'll stick to natural gas heat, thanks. My gas bill in the winter is $50. My electric bill in the summer is $200. | ||
| Sayitaintso |
The heater had a backup/supplementary electric coil. It was on most of the time Mine does too....my wallet starts crying every time the temp goes down near freezing in the winter and the electric strips kick in. | ||
| Sifo |
Are you talking a ground loop heat pump or an air exchange heat pump. Ground loop units work just fine in the great white north. At least they do in all three houses my mom has had up there. I'm a bit confused by the statement about them using freon. I'm pretty sure there's no freon used in the system at all.  | ||
| Cityxslicker |
I live currently in a drafty old garage that was 'converted' into a studio, I do like how the bikes drive right inside, I hate how drafty it is. so visquine and camping gear to the rescue; my living room looks like an REI display. (I offed most of the furniture when I sold the house, most of what I own now is highly mobile) | ||
| Sifo |
It really sounds like some of you may be confusing a ground source heat pump system with something else. I'm not sure how else to explain your experience. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_heat_pump
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| Aesquire |
Sifo, the systems use "freon" to move the heat. ( actually the current still under patent stuff, not the old 'became evil when the patent ran out and the mexicans were going to make it without paying us' freon ) Doesn't matter if it's air to air or ground to air. You still compress "freon" and let it expand to move heat, just like a refrigerator or AC unit. For in ground/geothermal You either sink a well with hundreds of feet of tubing... or run slit trenches with hundreds of feet of tubing laid in vertical loops. That tubing may run water with antifreeze in it, as you move the heat around, but the "heat pump" part uses freon to chill or heat the fluids in the ground and the air in the house. It gets to be a plumbers nightmare with domestic hot water thrown into the mix, but if you are moving heat around, using some to make hot water and act as a thermal sink is more efficient. I'm putting in an air to air split heat pump because it will be cheaper than a window unit to run, provide heat as needed and be far quieter. ( I heat with radiant underfloor heat powered by Propane. The cheapest solution? No. But very comfortable. ) I'd like to go geothermal, but can't afford the initial outlay. Bang for the buck is still wood heat, but that is increasingly regulated, takes lots of manual labor, and may be banned by the envirowackos. It makes no difference if they pushed "biomass" last week, and propose to ban its use by you this week. These people know better than you do, and have minds capable of ignoring actual facts and math to meet the emotional reactions their leaders push. The NY DEC is putting harsh regulations on outdoor wood fired boilers. Used in rural areas mostly, for domestic and farm heating. ( how do you think upstate farmers keep the cows from freezing? electric heat lamps? ) I've been looking at a system to supplement house heat and heat garage. I may have waited too long. I may be lucky I didn't. This is what happens when NYC regulators deal with country problems with zero knowledge. | ||
| Sifo |
Thanks for explaining the freon thing. I've never looked at the details of how they work, but know of people that have had great results with ground source units. My in-laws down in AK just upgraded their system from an air exchange system to a ground source system last fall. I haven't really asked the details of cost savings, but he claims it to be the best thing since sliced bread. When he built his house back in the '80s there was nobody installing ground loop systems in that area. Now they are just drilling vertically down through the rock. Where my mom is it's much easier. Just bury it in a trench dug in the soft sand. There are some great wood systems too. My brother's system heats a boiler in an out building and has a heat exchanger built into his forced air system. All that runs is the fan and a small pump to move the water (and of course the chain saw). If he gets lazy the propane kicks in and keeps the house warm just like a normal forced air system. | ||
| Moxnix |
Two weeks ago, Chevron came out and said US gas prices need to rise. The Financial Times reported: "George Kirkland, Chevron's head of oil and gas exploration and production, said the industry needed prices 'in the $6s and $7s' in the long term to cover the cost of investment." So, natural gas for the transportation trucks. A boost to biodiesel. And everyone in the city can have their proletarian scooters, either electric or affordable on $7 gas. Fischer-Tropsch synthesis kept the kraut tanks and airplane flying during WW Twice. Well, we have coal here don't we? Lets exploit more natural gas and ship it off to Europe to help w/ the balance of trade. Back to the drafting table on algae farming . . . save the world, make a few bucks, give folk incentives . . . | ||
| Hootowl |
He was referring to natural gas, not gasoline. Natural gas prices are depressed right now because of the vast reserves being discovered in the US. If those prices stay low, it won't be economically viable to recover the gas. Costs more to extract it than you can sell it for. I have faith that the laws of supply and demand will ensure that the right price point is reached. | ||
| Aesquire |
I have faith that the laws of supply and demand will ensure that the right price point is reached. That actually works, but it's not "the plan". The President speechified his lack of blame for high energy prices, claiming he couldn't help if he wanted too. Sure. And he's not involved in Libya, now that he's shifted all future blame to NATO. All the Prez has to do is announce we're drilling in Alaska, NY, ND, and offshore as soon as the paperwork gets done.....and the price of oil will be $70 in 2 days. It makes no difference that he's lying. Everyone ( who isn't a total fool ) knows his relation with the truth is distant, and has no birth certificate. ( he might, but truth is a stranger ) http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/01/13/stev en-chu-eases-up-on-the-gas-price-pedal/ The plan is to raise energy costs to the point that expensive "alternative" fuels are profitable. It was hoped by this admin that a tax & trade con to sell carbon credits could force much higher prices, and enrichen their buddies in companies like Enron, Goldman Sachs, and other large bribe givers. ( yep, although Enron is mostly gone, it was one of the planners on this con game to rip you, the consumer, off. The other guys on the steal your money train are all huge contributors to this admin. ) But, because of a evil republican congress, they were not able to enact this enormous tax on you legally, so will simply enact taxes with another name by executive fiat and bureaucratic rules, in defiance of Congress. Already 6$ gas is promised, and I'd bet on $7 diesel with massive inflation on everything retail. Food is already going up with insane Ethanol rules, and rising shipping & production costs. Farm equipment & Semi's use diesel. You're all screwed. Oh, crap, so am I. ( my car & tractor are diesel. ) | ||
| Cowboy |
Aesquire: you aare so right, Till we get the greenes, tree huggers, and socialest off our back we are SCREWEDs | ||
| Hootowl |
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/04/25/energy-americ a-oil-drilling-denial/#content The deck is stacked, and the Liberals are dealing. We're screwed. | ||
| Kenm123t |
Easy tell all the nuts there are free rugs in Mexicothey wil be gone in a flash. Moocher druggies and profit motive drug dealers. Set up drones pop corn and enjoy the civics lesson. | ||
| Aesquire |
http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/266243/cali fornia-dreamin-robert-bryce I'm paying well over $4 a gallon for my VW and tractor. When the rain stops, ( at least it seems to have quit snowing ) I'll go tank up Buttercup and see how much premium is....then. Filling daily seems the only form of income averaging working today. |
