| Author | Message | ||
     Buellerxt |
This is an exceptional commentary on GM, the Chevy Volt, and our dishonest Federal government. Be sure and read the GE part at the end. Commentary/Forbes Chevy Volt: The Car From Atlas Shrugged Motors Patrick Michaels, 03.16.11, 6:00 PM ET The Chevrolet Volt is beginning to look like it was manufactured by Atlas Shrugged Motors, where the government mandates everything politically correct, rewards its cronies and produces junk steel. This is the car that subsidies built. General Motors lobbied for a $7,500 tax refund for all buyers, under the shaky (if not false) promise that it was producing the first all-electric mass-production vehicle. At least that's what we were once told. Sitting in a Volt that would not start at the 2010 Detroit Auto Show, a GM engineer swore to me that the internal combustion engine in the machine only served as a generator, kicking in when the overnight-charged lithium-ion batteries began to run down. GM has continually revised downward its estimates of how far the machine would go before the gas engine fired, and now says 25 to 50 miles. It turns out that the premium-fuel fired engine does drive the wheels--when the battery is very low or when the vehicle is at most freeway speeds. So the Volt really isn't a pure electric car after all. I'm sure that the people who designed the car knew how it ran, and so did their managers. Why then the need to keep this so quiet? It's doubtful that GM would have gotten such a subsidy if it had been revealed that the car would do much of its freeway cruising with a gas engine powering the wheels. While the Volt is more complicated than the Prius, and has a longer battery-only range, a hybrid is a hybrid, and the Prius no longer qualifies for a tax credit. In other words, GM was desperate for customers for what they perceived would be an unpopular vehicle before one even hit the road. It had hoped to lure more if buyers subtracted the $7,500 from the $41,000 sticker price. Instead, as Consumer Reports found out, the car was very pricey. The version they tested cost $43,700 plus a $5,000 dealer markup ("Don't worry," I can hear the salesperson saying, "you'll get more than that back in your tax credit!"), or a whopping $48,700 minus the credit. This is one reason that Volt sales are anemic: 326 in December, 321 in January, and 281 in February. GM announced a production run of 100,000 in the first two years. Who is going to buy all these cars? Another reason they aren't exactly flying off the lots is because, well, they have some problems. In a telling attempt to preserve battery power, the heater is exceedingly weak. Consumer Reports averaged a paltry 25 miles of electric-only running, in part because it was testing in cold Connecticut. (My engineer at the Auto Show said cold weather would have little effect.) It will be interesting to see what the range is on a hot, traffic-jammed summer day, when the air conditioner will really tax the batteries. When the gas engine came on, Consumer Reports got about 30 miles to the gallon of premium fuel; which, in terms of additional cost of high-test gas, drives the effective mileage closer to 27 mpg. A conventional Honda Accord, which seats 5 (instead of the Volt's 4), gets 34 mpg on the highway, and costs less than half of what CR paid, even with the tax break. -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Recently, President Obama selected General Electric CEO Jeffrey Immelt to chair his Economic Advisory Board. GE is awash in windmills waiting to be subsidized so they can provide unreliable, expensive power. Consequently, and soon after his appointment, Immelt announced that GE will buy 50,000 Volts in the next two years, or half the total produced. Assuming the corporation qualifies for the same tax credit, we (you and me) just shelled out $375,000,000 to a company to buy cars that no one else wants so that GM will not tank and produce even more cars that no one wants. And this guy is the chair of Obama's Economic Advisory Board? It really is enough to get you to say Atlas Shrugged. For those who do not know, or who are only vaguely familiar with, the Ayn Rand classic, it is a story of a society in decay, where politically favored technologies and jobs are foisted on the nation, where innovations that might threaten existing corporatist cartels are financially or physically sabotaged as unemployment mounts and the nation spirals into a malaise that makes the Carter years look like Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood. Atlas Shrugged is about to come out as a surprisingly good and entertaining movie (which will be destroyed by Hollywood and New York Critics) on--you guessed it--April 15. Maybe the government could put in an ad before the show with Immelt exhorting Americans to care about "the environment and green jobs." All must buy Volts. Patrick Michaels is senior fellow in environmental studies at the Cato Institute and author of Climate Coup: Global Warming's Invasion of our Government and our Lives, which comes out April 22. | ||
| Froggy |
LOL that was hilarious! I love seeing old and inaccurate articles reposted. | ||
| Bluzm2 |
Frog, What's inaccurate about the article(s)? | ||
| Syonyk |
++ to "What's the issue?" If you disagree with the political bits, that's fine, but the Volt is just a fancy hybrid with an adequate electric-only range at this point... unless something has changed in the last few months. | ||
| Froggy |
I didn't go into further detail before, as it would be too much of a pain to type from my phones.
Yes, and they aren't the only one. Most of the major auto makers including Toyota have lobbied for various refunds and other tax credits for various electric, hybrid, and other alternative fuels.
GM has always used the 40 mile estimate number, it never changed. Actual range will vary depending on driving habits and road conditions.
GASP! When the battery is depleted it can't use the electric motor anymore. Who knew. The way it works is to use the gas generator to maintain a fixed percentage of battery charge (about 25%#, but if you are really beating the snot out of the car it will power the wheels via the gas motor as it won't be able to keep the battery charged fast enough.
They didn't keep it quiet, they mentioned this in their press releases. It isn't free way cruising, it is high speed cruising, well above the speed limit.
No, one is a parallel hybrid, other is a series hybrid. Its like saying anything anything with 4 wheels and a motor is a car. There is more to the definition than the fact that both the Volt and Prius have two motors.
The tax credits are based on vehicle sales. Toyota has sold enough Priuses that as of a few years ago they no longer qualify for that incentive.
Nope. They knew from the start it was going to be expensive, like the older Prius and other electric cars, so they did the smart thing and made a push to get some tax breaks. Toyota did the same, so did Nissan, Honda, Ford, Mitsu, and others.
Ah, good old Consumer Reports, they have about as much automotive review credibility as GamePro magazine. They need to stick to toasters.
Good old Consumer Reports got hosed again! What else is new.
Article dated March, only 3 months of limited production have started. Want to know how many cars they built during those 3 months? About the same as they have sold. In March the Volt sold 608 units, and in April they did 493. Sales were down for April because they built 300 vehicles for use in demo fleets, so that took a good chunk of the monthly production away. So far the Volt has sold 2,029 units, which is about twice as many as its competitor the Nissan Leaf at 1,044.
Yep, they still got a year and a half to ramp up production to full speed. 
Wait, and electric heater is weak compared to a mechanical one found in normal cars? You don't say! The Prius has a mechanical heater, if you start the car on a cold day, the instant you turn the heat on, the gas motor will kick in, and won't shut off at red lights, stop signs, and other situations where you normally wouldn't need it. The AC does the same thing. I bet when summer comes around, people are going to complain about the AC killing battery life in the Volt too.
25 miles all electric with the heat and other accessories going, in the dead middle of winter in Connecticut? That sounds fantastic. Many cars won't even start in the kind of cold we had this winter, which heavily taxes the batteries.
No escaping the laws of physics, my guess is that person had a different interpretation of the word cold.
I agree, but I don't believe it will be an issue with the drivablity of the car.
Good old CR, they have to make up new ways to make the car look bad by doing math to make fuel economy look worse than it is. I've never seen them do this on Honda and Toyota models that require premium fuel.
I'd like to know the source of this number, as according to the EPA the Accord in all engine and transmission configurations gets 31mpg. I love how they compared a figure that is mixed driving to an all highway number. I love the comment about the cost, a loaded Accord will easily break the $40k barrier, and not be any better equipped than the Volt which comes loaded in its cheapest form. Not to mention that you can't drive the Accord 25+ miles without burning a single drop of gasoline.
Interesting, because last time I looked there was a waiting list to get a Volt. A lot of nobodies want it apparently! | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
great post Froggy "When the gas engine came on, Consumer Reports got about 30 miles to the gallon of premium fuel; which, in terms of additional cost of high-test gas, drives the effective mileage closer to 27 mpg. " This part has me really confused, what exactly are they trying to say? The way that I read it is that they are stating they got 30mpg. Ok, I understand that. But then they are saying that because premium cost a little more than regular, its actually only 27mpg? So cause the gas cost more per gallon it means it gets less mpg? This makes no sense to me Please, someone explain this logic | ||
| Johnnymceldoo |
"25 miles all electric with the heat and other accessories going, in the dead middle of winter in Connecticut? That sounds fantastic. Many cars won't even start in the kind of cold we had this winter, which heavily taxes the batteries." I think you mean many cars built by the UAW. | ||
| Johnnymceldoo |
Hybrid they might be saying that regular octane isn't as efficient but most people use that instead of premium. | ||
| Froggy |
Hybrid, thats what they are doing. I don't have the math they used, but they reached the conclusion somehow. Consumer Reports at their finest. Funny thing is, it requires Premium because of the advanced timing to maximize fuel efficiency of the gas it does use, so if you put regular in it will knock and retard the timing, costing you fuel economy. | ||
| Froggy |
Oh yea! I forgot that Hondas have magic batteries that are immune to the effects of age and weather! | ||
| Johnnymceldoo |
No froggy vehicles not built by the uaw are generally more reliable. | ||
| Buellerxt |
I'm pretty sure that is what they are saying, and it is accurate, Hybrid. Premium costs about 10% more and the volt requires premium. The Volt is a HUGE mistake that GM has been working hard to put lipstick and thick powder on for years. The only way they will sell 100,000 of those costly wastes is if they get companies like G.E. to buy them for political favors. I have no problem with GM wasting tens of billions on the volt or any other project and I fully support every alternative energy that can stand on it's own. The Volt can't come close. I do have a problem with our tax dollars and billions of borrowed Chinese/Saudi dollars subsidizing alternative energies that cannot stand on their own and there are many of them. MANY of them. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
So nearly 30 years later... and they still havent beat the fuel economy of the initial CRX offering ? http://youtu.be/GhmViSMm24c | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
Who needs a heater or air conditioning? | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
Hybrid they might be saying that regular octane isn't as efficient but most people use that instead of premium Hybrid, thats what they are doing. I don't have the math they used, but they reached the conclusion somehow. Consumer Reports at their finest. Funny thing is, it requires Premium because of the advanced timing to maximize fuel efficiency of the gas it does use, so if you put regular in it will knock and retard the timing, costing you fuel economy. Thanks Johnny and Froggy for explaining that, I really didnt understand it. Plus, like I said in a recent thread by a guy new to his CR, its 20c (approx, sometimes 25 or so) extra for premium VS regular. It just aint worth saving 20c for | ||
| Bikertrash05 |
So nearly 30 years later... and they still havent beat the fuel economy of the initial CRX offering ? Car companies are always improving their vehicles, but those improvements aren't coming as fast as the gov'ts regulations and restrictions. Kinda silly how on one hand the gov't is requiring higher mpg standards, while on the other hand (or hands) the gov't is constantly requiring more safety equipment that adds weight, stricter emission requirements that is making engines run less efficient, and the EPA keeps wanting to add more ethanol to the gas. | ||
| Swampy |
A couple of years ago I rented a Mazda 3 to go to Florida and it was getting 36 MPG! A year later I rented a Dodge Charger and was getting 32! Is there only so many MGP that is possible from an internal combustion engine? Have we exhausted our technology with the internal combustion engine? Shouldn't we be looking outside the box for other means to cause motive force? | ||
| Kenm123t |
check out the ford direct injected gas engines good power and mpg | ||
| Pkforbes87 |
GM can pack sand. If I spend $40k on a car in the near future, it'll be a Fusion Hybrid. Oh wait, that's only $30k.. | ||
| Trojan |
I have seriously looked into buying an electric car here in the UK as I really do think it will be the way to go in future....but not yet it apepars. We get a very limited choice of very expensive electric powered cars here. The governemt gives a UK£5000 (US$8200 approx) subsidy towards buying one, but the actual sticker price at a dealer includes this reduction in almost every case, and is still substantially more expensive than the similarly equipped petrol/diesel powered models. A drive away price of UK£23000 (US$38000 nearly) for a Mistubishi MIEV ( a slightly lengthened Smart car really) or Nissan Leaf is shocking (ha ha) even before you start to take into account the very limited range, length of charge time and non existent public charging points in the UK. Taken as a whole, it would mean that buying an electric powered vehicle as an 'only car' is not an option for anyone who ever intends to complete a round journery of 100 mils or more (even in perfect conditions). Once you put the heater on the range dramatically shortens. This means that if you buy an electric vehicle you still need a petrol/diesel vehicle for longer range work and any savings are immediately negated  In time I'm sure they will be affordable and practical, but at present they are bit 'emporers new clothes' for me I'm afraid and until I can buy one for th same or less than a 'normal' car it won't happen Electric motorcycles are even more of a rip off at the moment. Roehr have just announced their latest electric motorcycle. The running gear is pretty much entirely a Hyosung GT650R, which is one of the cheapest (in price and build quality) mid capacity motorcycles you can currently buy and costs US$6599 . However stick an electric motor in it and the price is suddenly US$18000!!!! How on earth can they justify that cost for an electric motor? How long would it take to claw back the US$12000 extra cost in terms of charge vs fuel costs etc?? Range and power are both substantially reduced over the base model so there seems to be no incentive at all to buy one (or am I missing somehting else here?) | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
+10000 on the CRX. I had a 1985 CRX Si in highschool. Was fast and got 46 MPG on a highway trip. Also, was so light that it would hydroplane with fresh tires. This little quirk would prove to be its downfall. An uninsured tool in a 1978 Mopar brick ran a stop sign in front of me on a rainy day. It slid into the boat like it was on teflon skids! My current car is a Honda Fit. With a manual tranny, it gets 35 MPG every tank like clockwork. I still miss my old CRX or as my dad called it "The Little Red Rice Rocket". The Fit is a more practical car but I know if the EPA wasn't choking it and the safety stuff wasn't weighing it down, it would get crazy mileage numbers. Of course, it's less likely to kill me too. | ||
| Blake |
The Prius and other hybrids make a lot more sense for most people looking to save petrol. The Volt needs to address the climate control shortcomings. Until then its market is very limited. Heated seats and steering wheel might help. Why isn't the Post Office's local fleets going all hybrid or electric There isn't a better candidate anywhere. Answer: The cost would be astronomical. All in good time. Let's watch and see what UPS and FedEx do with their local fleets. Matt, Any move by the post carriers in Britain towards hybrids or electrics? In this new age of alternate drive tech, mpg no longer makes sense. The EPA lies about what they term MPGE--the "E" supposedly meaning "equivalent"--for electric cars in order to help sell them. It makes sense to rate vehicles on a full fuel cycle energy consumption or on a cost per mile bases. Those are the only apples to apples measures that truthfully inform the consumer. The big brother/EPA/GM/GE/Imelt game being played is EXACTLY the kind of bad gov't that the lecture were crying about wrt Cheney/Haliburton, except now it's real rather than imagined, and on a MUCH larger scale, and MUCH more insidiously organized. People need to be punished for this kind of collusion, graft, and dishonesty in gov't. The supreme court voted 5 to 4 to hand immeasurable power over to the executive when they were convinced by lies and half truths that CO2, a compound vital to life as we know it, is an air pollutant. BEWARE di-hydrogen-oxide, the eroded of earth, the incessant corroder of progress, and killer of millions! | ||
| Rick_a |
+1 for the Fit. We laughed at the "magic seats" when the sales guy first mentioned it, then were like, "oh sh*t, that's cool!" I was excited when the Volt Concept first appeared. The promise was a 120mph electric car with a flex fuel generator. They said it'd have a 40 mile range electric only and 50mpg for cross country trips. Talk about missing the mark. It even used to look cool  to this:  The biggest failure IMO is that it is not the electric vehicle with gas generator that was supposed to have been. They kinda snuck in that the 4cyl "generator" also drives the wheels when needed. | ||
| Trojan |
Matt, Any move by the post carriers in Britain towards hybrids or electrics? Maybe in and around London, but not 'out in the sticks' where we are unfortunately. Electric cars make a lot of sense if you stick to city driving and short distances, but fail pretty much every 'practicality' test when you get out of major towns and cities unfortunately I can't see how they will address it in countries such as the US where distances between towns are huge in comparison to the UK either. Renault apparently plan a nationwide string of 'battery replacement' centres, where you can drive in and swap out your discharged batteries for fresh ones. They don't mention if they will only cater for Renault vehicles (which I suspect will be the case), and as batteries are not standardised it won't help anyone else. I can also see the cost of 'battery exchanges' getting close to that of normal refulling for petrol powered vehicles, which makes it a bit of a waste of time Whatever happened to the nuclear powered 'Dan Dare' hover vehicles that we were all supposed to be driving by the year 2000 anyway...I was looking forward to those when I was a kid | ||
| Xl1200r |
So nearly 30 years later... and they still havent beat the fuel economy of the initial CRX offering ? Ever crash a CRX? Is there only so many MGP that is possible from an internal combustion engine? No. In Europe, you can buy a 70mpg diesel from almost any mass-manufacturer. Our EPA doesn't like diesles, though, so too bad for you. You're stuck with $40k hybrids. For the record, even at only a 25 mile range on the batteries, that would get me to work and back home, and then to the gym and back home all wihtout the gas engine starting. Just sayin'. | ||
| Froggy |
The problem is that gasoline has had a 100 year head start. It is cheap, it is available, it is tested, every one uses it, it has a solid anchor on the market. Every alt fuel has to overcome significant disadvantages including cost just to match gasoline, and thats not going to happen for years.
They have. According to Fueleconomy.gov the 84 CRX with a stick in its highest fuel economy trim got only 41mpg combined. That is on par (although slightly better) with many small non hybrid cars. But, the CRX is the last thing you want to be in a crash with, and it lacks all the basic features that modern cars have, like ABS, air conditioning, and did the CRX even have a radio?
Pretty much. There still is room for improvement, you will start to see direct injection, DSG transmissions, systems that shut off your motor at red lights, grills that have shutters that close on the highway, and other tricks become more prevalent.
At this point I believe the best option is to keep the old car and not trade in for an electric, but to have both if possible. One of my co workers only has an electric Mini, he does 99% of his driving in it, but he will rent a gas zipcar if he knows that he will be going out of the electric range.
Stateside the prices aren't so bad. An electric compared next to its gas equivalent will look bad, but it isn't as large as the gap you are seeing in the UK. The Zero S is available for $9k
I wouldn't call them shortcomings. No it isn't as great and will overwhelm you with heat/cold like a mechanical system, but it still does a fine job. The Volt does have heated seats, I don't recall anything about the steering wheel.
There are already many hybrid taxis here in NY, local governments buy hybrids for their fleets too. It will be only a matter of time before the USPS replaces their mail "jeeps" with hybrids.
They missed none, I'm not sure where you got those numbers from, I've never seen it, and I've been following it for years.
You mean it used to look like crap, and the joke at GM was that the aerodynamics were so terrible that it did better in the wind tunnel backwards.
It is an electric vehicle with gas generator. The gas engine will only drive the wheels when needed as a last resort. Just like your Buell has a small electric motor that will only be used when needed. | ||
| Froggy |
78% of the drivers in the US drive less than 40 miles a day. I'm not one of them, but three quarters of the population have the option now to pretty much eliminate their gasoline consumption. Cool stuff. | ||
| Hootowl |
"Let's watch and see what UPS and FedEx do with their local fleets." UPS already has hybrid trucks. I saw one at work just last week. They don't use batteries though, they are hydraulic (said so on the side). I'm not sure how the energy recovery happens, but the wheels are hydraulically driven. The engine drives a pump. | ||
| Paint_shaker |
All this "car talk"? And I thought this was a motorcycle board... LOL | ||
| Blake |
It if doesn't make sense for UPS, it won't make sense for most people. It little to no sense to have two vehicles to fill the role of one. Hybrids are by far the most logical choice and will likely become much more wide-spread. I wish my F250 had a braking energy reclamation system. Bringing over three tons to a stop is a serious amount of wasted energy. I don't see how else to characterize an inability to heat or cool the cabin without dropping the range to 25 miles as anything but a shortcoming. Every review I've read for cold weather performance of the Volt has lamented the poor heating performance and poor resulting range, even when pre-heating in garage while still plugged in. "A fine job", hardly. I wouldn't purchase one on that shortcoming alone. The Volt seems to me to be a great example of an R&D project that is not ready for market. If you have to put a gasoline engine in it, the regular hybrids make so much more sense. |
