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Blake
| | Posted on Monday, May 09, 2011 - 10:52 am: | 
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At least for city driving. |
Hootowl
| | Posted on Monday, May 09, 2011 - 11:06 am: |
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I don't understand why the volt isn't more fuel efficient. You'd think the gas engine would operate at a fixed RPM. Cams, intake and exhaust tract, all tuned to make power at that RPM. No need for a broad torque curve, concentrate all the torque in a peaky narrow band. Never connect the engine mechanically to the wheels. I imagine this was some engineer's original intent, but that his/her brilliance was dimmed by committee. |
Cityxslicker
| | Posted on Monday, May 09, 2011 - 11:15 am: |
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if big government 'purchases' them for fleet requirements, then the charade is complete.
Hello Comrade. State planned manufactured, production, to forced consumption.... it is a unique model. Pity Moscow tried it and FAILED.
(but whats history? I mean its not on Twitter, or Facebook, so it must not be reality) |
01_turbowolf
| | Posted on Monday, May 09, 2011 - 11:25 am: |
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i wonder if their sales will drop when the electric focus comes out this year. |
Natexlh1000
| | Posted on Monday, May 09, 2011 - 12:16 pm: |
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Greetings comrade!
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Bigdaddy
| | Posted on Monday, May 09, 2011 - 12:17 pm: |
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You cannot really compare the older Honda with the modern day equivalent. It just so happens that I have a CRZ, and two of my kids drive a CRX HF and a Wagovan (look that one up..ugly as sin). They both get wonderful MPG, 40+MPG on both of them and the CRX will push towards 50 if you baby it (It has AC and a killer stereo FWIW).
The weight difference between the CRX and CRZ is roughly 850 lbs with a full tank of fuel and that is mostly safety gear and I'm sure the CRZ battery is a chunk of weight.
The 1987 Wagovan has 120K on the clock and runs as good as anything...putting struts on it as soon as she shows up in fact. The CRX has 270K on the clock and has had 2 timing belts, multiple sets of brakes, one alternator and a Pull-A-Part AC compressor.
I'll stick with the safety features of my CRZ and suck it up as I get 42MPG with the AC blasting running 75mph. It's all good.
As long as I can keep my old Chevy's running using Autozone/Advance I'll keep them...if I were forced to go to the Chevrolet dealer for a part they'd be gone. |
Buellerxt
| | Posted on Monday, May 09, 2011 - 12:54 pm: |
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The head start for gasoline isn't 100 years. Alternative car technologies have been talked about, invested in, hyped, and largely subsidized through grants, direct subsidies, etc, at least since the oil price quadrupling and long gas lines of 1974 and 1979. This race didn't start in the last 25 years. |
Cityxslicker
| | Posted on Monday, May 09, 2011 - 01:23 pm: |
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gas is the same slice of relative price indexing that it has been since 64; its that your dollar is worth so much LESS that it takes more of them to buy the same good.
want to watch gas go really wonky, convert all pumping machines to metric, and make the purchase only available through new 'HOPE' credits.... |
Kenm123t
| | Posted on Monday, May 09, 2011 - 04:45 pm: |
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OOOO Natex how much for the mini mini tank ?? |
Boogiman1981
| | Posted on Monday, May 09, 2011 - 06:33 pm: |
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for that matter why not diesel hybrids? |
Court
| | Posted on Monday, May 09, 2011 - 06:41 pm: |
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People aren't stupid......
Government Motors can't give the Volt away.... Even with the tax credits. |
Court
| | Posted on Monday, May 09, 2011 - 06:44 pm: |
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Sales figures
http://www.autoblog.com/2011/05/03/sales-update-ni ssan-leaf-hits-573-chevy-volt-at-493-in-april/ |
Froggy
| | Posted on Monday, May 09, 2011 - 07:30 pm: |
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quote:It if doesn't make sense for UPS, it won't make sense for most people.
UPS changed their delivery routes to avoid making lefts that would get the truck stuck at a light. Doing that won't make sense for most people.
quote:It little to no sense to have two vehicles to fill the role of one
This is why the Volt was born. It does the job of an electric commuting during the week, and will still let you visit your parents on the other side of the state.
quote:Hybrids are by far the most logical choice and will likely become much more wide-spread
Indeed they do and will.
quote:I wish my F250 had a braking energy reclamation system. Bringing over three tons to a stop is a serious amount of wasted energy.
Ford was experimenting with hydraulic launch and recovery a while back, but I don't believe anything ever came of it. Good to hear that UPS is trying it out.
quote:I don't see how else to characterize an inability to heat or cool the cabin without dropping the range to 25 miles as anything but a shortcoming.
Use the climate controls in a gasoline car and you will shorten the range there too.
quote:review I've read for cold weather performance of the Volt has lamented the poor heating performance and poor resulting range, even when pre-heating in garage while still plugged in. "A fine job", hardly. I wouldn't purchase one on that shortcoming alone.
I haven't driven a Volt, so I can't say for sure how bad it is, but the automotive press is critical of everything regardless of how minor it is. Looking on the GM-Volt.com forums I haven't seen much in terms of complaints with the HVAC. Apparently it works fine till the ambient temp is around 40, but below that the heat pump does not have enough output to bring the cabin to very hot temperatures.
I know you wouldn't purchase it just because it’s a Chevy. It could have a MSRP of $500, have a range of 500 miles on electric, and get 500mpg on gas. You still would look the other way.
quote:The Volt seems to me to be a great example of an R&D project that is not ready for market. If you have to put a gasoline engine in it, the regular hybrids make so much more sense.
It is and has been ready. You don't have to put gasoline in it, that’s the big thing about the Volt. The Prius requires gas, the Volt doesn't.
quote:I don't understand why the volt isn't more fuel efficient. You'd think the gas engine would operate at a fixed RPM. Cams, intake and exhaust tract, all tuned to make power at that RPM. No need for a broad torque curve, concentrate all the torque in a peaky narrow band
That is how it works, same as the Prius. Part of the reason it requires premium fuel, it runs the motor in a narrow band and uses a variable transmission.
quote:Never connect the engine mechanically to the wheels. I imagine this was some engineer's original intent, but that his/her brilliance was dimmed by committee.
No, it was power limitations. Power can be consumed faster than it could be regenerated; therefore in some conditions it will turn itself into a hybrid like the Prius.
quote:if big government 'purchases' them for fleet requirements, then the charade is complete
Big government has been buying Crown Vics, Chargers, Suburban’s, Civics, Priuses, and tons of other vehicles over the years.
quote:i wonder if their sales will drop when the electric focus comes out this year.
It is a very safe bet that sales will continue to increase.
quote:You cannot really compare the older Honda with the modern day equivalent.
+1
quote:The head start for gasoline isn't 100 years. Alternative car technologies have been talked about, invested in, hyped, and largely subsidized through grants, direct subsidies, etc, at least since the oil price quadrupling and long gas lines of 1974 and 1979. This race didn't start in the last 25 years.
Electrics were more prominent in the early 1900's, cheap gas killed them off. In the late 80s/early 90s there was another push for electrics being spearheaded by California. It was killed by cheap gas again. What’s going to make the difference this time? Gas isn't as cheap. Is it expensive enough to make a difference? Hard to say, but electrics and hybrids have a better chance today than they did 10, 25, or ever 100 years ago. The tech has more R&D in it too these days, if electrics are to fail again, they won't go without a fight.
quote:for that matter why not diesel hybrids?
Cost. The cost of a diesel on top of the already expensive hybrid systems make it not economical. They do exist, I recall a VW diesel hybrid concept, and we have diesel electric busses running around in NY. Hopefully they will replace the garbage truck with a diesel electric, I can't stand being woken up at 4am when they decide to go wide open for 50 feet, stop and get the garbage, then go wide open again to the next house.
quote:Government Motors can't give the Volt away.... Even with the tax credits.
Court, I've touched on the sales in the last page. GM has no problem selling the Volt, there is a huge demand, the problem is production, and it still is a limited production vehicle. |
Natexlh1000
| | Posted on Monday, May 09, 2011 - 07:51 pm: |
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Re: the minitank
I just did a quicky search for "trabant" and that was several pages down.
I will have to redo that to find more info 
(I was at work) |
Aesquire
| | Posted on Monday, May 09, 2011 - 08:31 pm: |
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On the Premium/regular issue. A high compression engine will get better mileage on higher octane gas. If it wasn't built by complete idiots, the computer will detect knock and retard timing...hurting mileage, and saving the engine from ruin. A lower compression engine will get little advantage from higher octane gas. ( within the limits of testing, usually. ) It ALSO will have a knock sensor for times the gas is old, cruddy, or Mexican.
Choosing a higher than "normal" compression engine for a Corvette is wise. The Volt having such an engine shows it is NOT designed to be an economy car, but a bragging rights car. I have no problem with that. Buggati's have little purpose than ego and thrills, and I love that we still live in a world that still has that. Might not for much longer, because of radical religious zealots.
I do agree Consumer reports is biased toward Hondas and Toyotas. I still remember the Car & Driver CR Parody, after CR dissed the Omni ( C&D's car of the year ) because of a "handling problem" that ANY front drive car had, when you jerk the steering wheel to the side and let go, they somehow thought you should go back on course, instead of going into the ditch.....like every other car on the planet. I also recall a Mt. Bike test where 2 bikes, made in the same factory with the same components, just different decals, got different ratings because of mechanic setup differences in the ( exact same ) brakes.
No, one is a parallel hybrid, other is a series hybrid.
That WAS what the car magazines thought, but they are both parallel hybrids. We had a whole thread on this going. Lots of disinformation on the Volt. ( A car I'm paying for and don't get to drive... like a few others )
( for those confused, a serial hybrid is like a locomotive. A diesel engine spins a generator, and that powers electric motors. The combustion engine has no mechanical connection to the wheels. A Parallel hybrid is like the Prius and Volt, where the electric OR the gas engine OR both drives the wheels. It takes a more sophisticated gas engine, ( to meet pollution and drivability standards ) than a serial hybrid, but needs a smaller electric motor, since you can use both engines at the same time when you punch it.
I'm unaware of a Serial hybrid for sale here in car form, though it promises the potential for better mileage, the car makers already know how to make gas car engines, and the smaller electric motor saves money... so here we are.
The gas engine will only drive the wheels when needed as a last resort. That turns out not to be the case. It's a hybrid with a little larger battery. That IS what the car mags say GM told them. They were upset about that.
I think the Volt system is pretty neat. It's obviously a refinement of the Motor-where-the-torque-converter-used-to-be design that Chrysler, Gm and others were working on, with a complex & cool planetary gearset/clutch arrangement.
The Post Office would love to go hybrid. It's just too expensive up-front for a company that's losing money and cutting employees that actually work. ( as opposed to middle management ) A Volt or Prius type drivetrain in a LLV ( little letter van or officially Long Life Vehicle ) would be nearly ideal. Electric wouldn't work in winter. ( in the great white north )
The original GM electric car only had a 15-25 mile range in winter up here.
Without the gas engine to provide waste heat, the Prius would be undrivable up here too. Mileage drops a lot on Hybrids in winter and deep summer when you have AC on. It takes just under 60hp to run down the road at cruising speed for a mediocre aero drag car. The Prius needs less, my Van a bit more. Any thing that sucks power cuts your mileage, and the numbers are more obvious as you get closer to the edges of capacity. ( what's the mileage in a Volt with mobile boom box idiot stereo gear? Hit the bass boost and the car slows down? )
No need for a broad torque curve,... that's why serial hybrids can be more efficient. A Volt isn't one. Ask GM why. ( hint- money )
Use the climate controls in a gasoline car and you will shorten the range there too. true. and the closer to capacity the system is, the more turning on the AC will cost you, comparatively.
The Prius requires gas, the Volt doesn't. Only if I only want to go 25 miles before plugging it back in. If I want to visit anyone more than 14 miles away, I'm burning gas.
It's a fraking hybrid with a major load of hype. Also a burden as it's seen by some as Government Motors tax subsidized political statement for the Current Admin's policies of higher energy costs and less personal freedom. Unfair, but that's the Burden the Volt carries over and above it's real world limitations. |
Xl1200r
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2011 - 10:25 am: |
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I recall reading the article on the Volt where it was explained exactly how the powertrain worked, and when the engine would get in lock-step with the wheels. I think the difference is that the engine can completely disengage itself from the wheels for 90+% of the time.
for that matter why not diesel hybrids?
I think you'll find the future will be with microturbines or turbogenerators. I'm not really sure why this isn't being used already as every jet airliner you've flown on uses a seperate turbine engine to power a generator for the electrics in the plane. |
Hootowl
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2011 - 10:36 am: |
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"UPS changed their delivery routes to avoid making lefts that would get the truck stuck at a light"
I saw a show about that. Pretty clever. I chuckle a little inside every time I see one turn left. Sometimes they don't have a choice. |
Sifo
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2011 - 11:15 am: |
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Wasn't the whole thing about UPS not turning left about time, not economy? |
Ohsoslow
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2011 - 01:09 pm: |
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just for the record, Fed Ex has been using hybrids in their delivery truck for several years now. the diesel engines are constantly running at idle when going on electric power then when the batteries run down or you are really getting in the throttle the engine will kick in. most of these truck the engine will kick in above 30 mph.
i did however drive a prototype last week from a very large producer of hybrid truck systems, i made it all the way to 55mph on battery power, that's something on trucks that isn't easy. i dont know the range on battery power or any other specifics other than it used a Mercedes Benz 4 cylinder diesel, the same one that has been out for some time now, and it had a 6 speed MANUAL trans that is electronically shifted aka automated. |
Hootowl
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2011 - 04:43 pm: |
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Could be, but time is money. |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2011 - 05:00 pm: |
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>>> UPS changed their delivery routes to avoid making lefts that would get the truck stuck at a light. Doing that won't make sense for most people.
Sorry Frank, I assumed you understood my point concerned the equipment. I wasn't meaning to imply anything outside of the type of motive power used to propel the UPS local delivery fleet.
>>> This is why the Volt was born. It does the job of an electric commuting during the week, and will still let you visit your parents on the other side of the state.
Frank, you had suggested a good idea was to have two vehicles, one for commuting, one for long distance. That was the point that I was addressing.
>>> Use the climate controls in a gasoline car and you will shorten the range there too.
The comparison falls far short. The A/C in a car actually improves mileage compared to rolling the windows down, at least at highway speeds; that due to the aerodynamic penalty of open windows.
I have no idea how or why using the heater would affect the mileage of a conventional car. The heat has to be shed. It doesn't care if some is shed into the cabin via heater or out into the ambient air via the radiator. Maybe the electric fan ups the load on the alternator some. Not much.
>>> Apparently it works fine till the ambient temp is around 40, but below that the heat pump does not have enough output to bring the cabin to very hot temperatures.
Frank, folks aren't looking for "very hot"; they're merely looking for "comfortable". In that, the Volt fails when subject to normal wintertime temperatures throughout the vast majority of the nation. That is an incredible failure.
>>> I know you wouldn't purchase it just because it’s a Chevy. It could have a MSRP of $500, have a range of 500 miles on electric, and get 500mpg on gas. You still would look the other way.
Untrue. If GM offers something that provides a significant advantage in value compared to the competition, I'll absolutely consider it. They don't. They never have. I doubt they ever will. The Volt is the exact opposite, a very poor value compared to the competition.
>>> It is and has been ready. You don't have to put gasoline in it, that’s the big thing about the Volt. The Prius requires gas, the Volt doesn't.
If you want to drive more than 25 miles when its cold out it does.
But Frank, my statement was that "if you have to put a gasoline engine in it, the regular hybrids make so much more sense."
>>> That is how it works, same as the Prius. Part of the reason it requires premium fuel, it runs the motor in a narrow band and uses a variable transmission.
The question was asking why the thing isn't more efficient in gasoline mode, only achieving moderate fuel economy. Seems like it ought to be. Why isn't it?
>>> It is a very safe bet that sales will continue to increase.
Currently, there's nowhere else to go but up. Selling mere hundreds per month is a joke. But the point was that the Ford Focus plug-in electric may take well-deserved market share from the Volt.
quote: “We’ve made a big bet on electric, and I think it has a really interesting future, but the pace of which it develops, I think anybody that tells you [what that is], is lying. You just throw a dart.”
Bill Ford, March 2011
>>> The tech has more R&D in it too these days, if electrics are to fail again, they won't go without a fight.
GM is reportedly selling the Volt at cost. How long can that continue? How much are the charging stations that folks need to put in their garage for a plug-in car?
"There is a huge demand" for Chevy Volts? Say what? Anyone here know anyone who is planning to purchase one? I don't. |
Hootowl
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2011 - 05:05 pm: |
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"Anyone here know anyone who is planning to purchase one? I don't."
If you pay taxes, you're buying one. You just don't get to drive it. |
Sifo
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2011 - 05:35 pm: |
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I'm curious who has purcha... err... taken delivery of the few hundred so far. Is it individuals or have most of them gone to GE? |
Pkforbes87
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2011 - 06:33 pm: |
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"I'm not really sure why this isn't being used already as every jet airliner you've flown on uses a seperate turbine engine to power a generator for the electrics in the plane."
I can't speak for every airliner you've flown on, but the APU on the jet I work on every day can't be used during flight. Keeping the intake and exhaust hatches open would compromise the structural integrity of the fuselage. The APU is there for minimal power generation to be used during some ground maintenance evolutions, but mostly just a way to generate aircraft power while supplying bleed air to the real engines. Once those are started, the APU is no longer needed.
Granted, there may be aircraft out there with an APU capable of in-flight operations, but I've never heard of it. Power requirements would have to be minimal in order for such a small power source to be ample. Then again, I'm used to working on systems that transmit 200,000 watts strong. The typical airliner isn't quite as demanding on it's generators  |
46champ
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2011 - 12:55 am: |
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747 APU's run during flight at least the early ones did. |
Aesquire
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2011 - 07:13 am: |
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Blake, look at it this way.
Buy a Prius, take it to a shop and spend an extra $10,000 on a bigger battery and the computer program mods. Then you too will have a "plug in hybrid" car. Like a Volt. A car that gets better mileage, actually.
I think you'll find that after reprogramming the computer to extend electric only range, the modded Prius won't have useful heat either in electric mode. ( plenty in hybrid mode.... and running the gas engine to keep you warm costs you mileage.... but you can see out and unzip your jacket. Funny.... Fires in the cave are more work, burn more fuel, but really help with that staying alive thing. )
IMHO It gets down to Toyota having more experience with hybrids. I'm sure the next Gen Volt will be better, and eventually, the difference in Constumer Retorts will be the same as their opinion of a Camry & Impala. ( or whatever segment matches companies products )
Volt has the political baggage of this admin. takeover/bailout, a Cult, and a long held company reputation for indifferent quality and management. ( while the 'Vette's and Caddys seem darn good. to me ) |
1324
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2011 - 07:31 am: |
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I love threads like this. No really, I do. At least I know SOME people are still capable of independent critical thinking...thank God!
That being said, I'm still partially nauseated by this hybrid/electric subsidy nonsense. If Washington were serious about environmentalism, or reduction of fossil fuel use (foreign or domestic), they'd subsidize work to develop an HONEST "cradle to the grave" energy consumptions understanding. As it stands today, this is all smoke and mirrors. Don't get too wrapped around the axle with the products at our consumer finger tips. |
Aesquire
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2011 - 12:33 pm: |
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... energy consumptions understanding.
We're going to use more. Simple. Or. We're going to have crappier lives, in poverty and hunger. Simple.
Not saying conservation is bad, far from it. I'm exited about any means to reduce consumption that does not hurt our lifestyles. Fuel cells, insulation, more efficient cars. Still, we have more people, ( current guess in 50 million illegal trespassers and growing in addition to the counted, legal 300 million .....in the US. China has billions, and they lie about that ) and will need more power to let them survive and prosper.
Say we use 1 terawatt of power. That means we need to build 2 terawatts of power capacity that do not use fossil fuels to prepare for the future. ( I'm sure I'm off on the numbers but within an order of magnitude I suspect it's closer to 3 terrawatts )
If you don't make more means to create electric power, if/when electric cars become more common, your AC and refrigerator will no longer serve you well, since there is NOT ENOUGH POWER for cars, industry and homes. Period.
Current trend ( in political goals, in US ) is toward poverty and hunger. Do you have a clue how much diesel is used to fertilize, grow, harvest and transport the crops we ship all over the planet? When that system costs too much to be profitable, the Agribusiness companies will stop growing food. Why should they? How could they keep going? Then, IF current "progressive" trends continue, the State will take over farms, run them badly and thus murder a billion + people through starvation and civil unrest.
Look at Russia's "great success" in starving it's own, China's many famines, and the utter lack of agricultural capacity in Africa.
If we don't grow food for the planet, there may not be enough living, healthy humans in some places to bury the dead.
There's a lot more people alive today than in 1939. ( the start of WW2, more or less ) A collapse of the US energy system will kill more people than were alive on the planet in WW2. |
Bigdaddy
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2011 - 12:58 pm: |
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"A collapse of the US energy system will kill more people than were alive on the planet in WW2."
Likely the most cogent ^^^ point made in this thread and absolutely accurate. |
Court
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2011 - 01:10 pm: |
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quote:this quote from General Motor's Rob Peterson:
The Volt production launch is on schedule to build and sell every one of our 10,000 units this year. Through February, we produced over 1,800 vehicles - 925 of which have been sold at retail. Production volume will gradually increase each month throughout the year. However, over the next few months we will be shipping Volt dealer demo vehicles and vehicles to our coastal launch markets which takes longer than delivering them to nearby states. This situation should be resolved by May, after which the number of Volt's sold will rise.
There is no demand issue; ask any dealer in a launch market. This is a temporary situation. The Volt launch is on time and on target.
That does clear things up a bit, but it also dispells the rumor we heard earlier that GM might try to make 25,000 Volts this year instead of just 10,000 or 12,000.
Without HUGE subsidies from both GM and their owner (who is preparing to take a bath on their stock), the federal government, the Volt would already have fallen flat.
We'll see.
I've seen 3 in town and managed photos. The styling is certainly more fetching than other eco-wagons . . but Im in the market for a new car now and economy (I'm buying about $88 worth of fuel 3X a week at present) is a huge deal and the Volt is not even on my list. |
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