| Author | Message | ||
     Gregtonn |
Since the "Birther" thread took a left turn into Bushwhacking, taxes and the economy I thought I'd start a new thread as an alternative. My son and I were having a discussion about the economy awhile back. I sent him this email as a result of one of our discussions: "Want hear my idea of how to make the economy come alive and see the government make sure it stays that way? Tie the federal budget directly to the GDP. 1. The federal government is allowed a percentage of the GDP, say 3%, as it's budget. 2. This budget would be based on the GDP in the previous fiscal quarter, not some economist's theory of what it will be in the future. If the GDP drops the federal budget drops the next quarter, no exceptions. Need money for an "emergency"? Make sure you have some of that budget in a real "rainy-day-fund-lock-box". This would encourage the feds to become partners with businesses rather than adversaries. Bureaucrats would quickly learn that red-tape and kick-backs are going to hurt their bottom line, not help it. That would give them incentive to make sure things get done quickly and efficiently." G | ||
| Aesquire |
Dang, that makes sense. It's how normal people deal with spending. ( when you max out the cards, you have to actually budget ) D.C. has maxed out the cards. Pity I'm pessimistic about the probability on that proposal. | ||
| Paint_shaker |
Restore my pay raise, holiday pay and over time pay and I will be able to do my part to get the economy moving in the form of going racing, taking vacations and buying stuff. Until then, it will be mostly keeping the bills in check and things needed to survive... | ||
| Dynasport |
I don't follow your idea. How do you collect taxes equivalent to the GDP each quarter? Who pays the taxes? What is the tax rate? | ||
| Geforce |
I think we are due for a spending and tax... well I hate to use this word but, reform. I don't pretend to have all the answers but our tax code is scary looking. Surely some genius out there could come up with a basic tax/spend plan that is neither aggressive or conservative...just... common sense. By common sense I mean. You cannot spend what you don't have. Plan for the future and monitor those economical concerns that can disrupt the system. I dunno... just thinking about this makes my brain hurt. I already have a hard enough time managing my money. The difference is, I get punished when I screw up. | ||
| Gregtonn |
"I dunno... just thinking about this makes my brain hurt. " C It took me years, (hell it was decades) to figure it out, at your age just put $20 in to something (maybe silver) per month and leave it there. You'll make more than you will in US bonds. G | ||
| Gregtonn |
"I don't follow your idea. How do you collect taxes equivalent to the GDP each quarter? Who pays the taxes? What is the tax rate?" Huh? Do you suppose we could come up with something that is simpler than that in the 50,000+ pages of tax code we have now? G | ||
| Blake |
National 20% sales tax, including a small 0.3% or so on ALL stock/options/commodities/futures/(all) trades. NO EXCEPTIONS! Zero income tax, personal and corporate. Zero capital gains tax. Take the ENTIRE payroll tax from each employee, not half from the employer to hide the reality from people. When folks see how much of their hard earned income the gov't is taking, they'll think a bit more about reforming the entitlement system. Shift the IRS into anti-black-market enforcers. In keeping with Greg's idea, the sales tax rate should change accordingly with GDP and total tax revenue collected, kinda of like how a mortgage escrow account is kept properly balanced. Collect too much on year, lower the rate for the next year or vice versa. Too simple. While we're at it, privatize the post office. Basically the government is forcing me to accept junk mail. At least 90% of my mail by weight or volume is junk, unwanted advertising that goes straight into the bin. | ||
| Aesquire |
While we're at it, privatize the post office. Uh, it is. Has been for years. Sorry about the junk mail, it's the only thing that keeps it all going. Hope you can use it for fire starter. Now THAT's biomass fuel! You want to really privatize it, with no Congressional control over the current non-profit? Then no one outside metro areas gets mail, and no more house to house delivery. Just no longer pays. I also disagree on the sales tax. That hurts the poor people the most as a percentage of income. Changing the tax rate to reflect the GDP has some merit, but the logical thing to do is to exploit the Laffer Curve, and lower taxes until you get a drop off of revenue relative to the GDP, then hold at the least tax for the most revenue. Minimum pain to the taxpayer, maximum cash for roads, defense, and safety/law enforcement. ( and yes, you have to vary the income tax periodically to re-find the sweet spot as the economy cycles ) Also end the ceiling on Social Security taxes. That would help with that Ponzi scheme a lot. Fairs fair. I don't have a problem with a company making enormous profits when the % is rational and the number is huge because of Volume. ( Exxon, Walmart, etc. ) That also means that when you pay your SSI tax everyone should pay the same percentage. It's NOT now a flat tax on top of income taxes, it actually favors the rich over the poor. Any other approach seems to be designed to exploit the ones that don't bribe the politicians and reward the ones that do. ( or equally as cynical, reward the ones that vote as you like, and trap as many as possible into reliance on an all powerful State ) But the idea that Congress just can't spend money they don't have is fundamental. They Borrow more money an hour than 99% of us make in a year. Insane. | ||
| Dynasport |
The government is forcing you to accept junk mail? Wow, that would be funny if you weren't serious. | ||
| Eboos |
"That hurts the poor people the most as a percentage of income." Well it's poor people's fault for being poor. They should have had wealthier parents and went to better schools.  | ||
| Sifo |
We should get rid of corporate income tax altogether. You would have to adjust the tax structure with different income tax, or a flat tax, fair tax, or what ever tax you come up with. That would incentive's corporations world wide to locate themselves here in the US. It would also let people see the reality of how much money the government takes out of our pockets directly rather than hiding it in the cost of goods we purchase. | ||
| Gregtonn |
"National 20% sales tax..." Way too high and a stupid idea in the first place. It would encourage the government to keep prices high (more taxes). G | ||
| Cityxslicker |
You could do what Lenin did in 17-25... Encourage domestic and foreign capital investment and inventions with a relaxation of filing, fees, and regulatory requirements.... and when they start to produce - seize them as a 'capitalist' exploitation of the 'worker' co-op and kollectivize large industry components, force the production in a top down management with quotos and incentives that have nothing to do with market demand, or product reality. Seize, freeze, devalue, destroy assets of the previous political party and their supporters. Reformat the currency, revalue it, make a new series of notes, and prohibit international trade of currency by individuals. Seize commodity markets to format your own artificial schema that promotes 'change, diversity, nationalism, hope, environmental stuartship'.... collapse incentives for private home ownership, and that if you want a home, you have to go through the government either for allocation, or financial 'loan' backing. Create an internal 'checka' to find, route, extinguish and 'disappear' "dissident" speech, figures, art, literature, or media. 'Criminalize' the exceptional, label them as enemies of the state, reward the party line with largess, privy, and sustinance. Create a specific 'union' to reward your loyal supporters, make a 'right to work' as a requirement of said union. Force a 'national' standardized education on the masses that is driven by your propoganda. Co-op art to your driven state iconography. Control distribution of food, fuel, healthcare delivery for the 'good of all'. Limit expatriation, and of course, fire up the machine that will do the 'purges' whether it be bulldozers, fire bombs, tanks, rifles, cremation chambers, or guillotine. want to know where this thing is headed?... read what they are ... read what they want to emulate. Che, Lenin, Marx, Mao, Stalin, Hegel, Engels, It's what happens next, read Lenin's 1921 'What is to be Done' Its just full of 'hope and change' | ||
| Kenm123t |
City did you steal this from obamas personal library ? | ||
| Aesquire |
They don't know what's in his library. | ||
| Aesquire |
If you didn't know from a centuries bitter experience that the marxist/collectivist/leftist system has a few fatal flaws, you'd buy into the hype. It's the Shamwow of economics. Class warfare, class envy, a whole new world of made up language to hide the real motivations and results. Now, they don't seem to teach history anymore, so you can't be expected to recall those flaws include financial ruin, mass starvation, mass murder, totalitarian rule, police state, lack of rights, limited freedom of speech and choice in all things. I'll bet you $50 Obama has 'What is to be Done' in his library. I further bet you $50 it's dog eared and very well read. Might even ( no bets ) be his fathers copy. So if you get a chance at a town hall, ask him. ( simply ask if he has his Father's copy.......... ) | ||
| Sifo |
The Recession has hit everybody..... I got a pre-declined credit card in the mail. Wives are having sex with their husbands because they can't afford batteries. CEO's are now playing miniature golf. Exxon-Mobil laid off 25 Congressmen. A stripper was killed when her audience showered her with rolls of pennies while she danced. I saw a Mormon polygamist with only one wife. If the bank returns your check marked "Insufficient Funds," you call them and ask if they meant you or them. McDonald's is selling the 1/4 ouncer. Angelina Jolie adopted a child from America. Parents in Beverly Hills fired their nannies and learned their children's names. My cousin had an exorcism but couldn't afford to pay for it, and they re-possessed her! A truckload of Americans was caught sneaking into Mexico. A picture is now only worth 200 words. The Treasure Island Casino in Las Vegas is now managed by Somali pirates. Congress says they are looking into this Bernard Madoff scandal. Oh Great! The guy who made $50 Billion disappear is being investigated by the people who made $1.5 Trillion disappear! And, finally... I was so depressed last night thinking about the economy, wars, jobs, my savings, Social Security, retirement funds, etc., I called the Suicide Hotline. I got a call center in Pakistan, and when I told them I was suicidal, they got all excited, and asked if I could drive a truck. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
No, I HAVE READ Marx, Lenin, Stalin, Engels, Hegel, Khrushchev, Mao, Guevara, Trotsky and have an undergrad emphasis in Soviet Command Economics (40 credits) ..... of course I graduated the year the wall fell. Welcome to the new obsolete. But these guys are hitting the chapters like mile markers.... and they are not any smarter, wiser, or affective than the Soviets were, expect similar results. The purges start soon. and nobody will talk about them for fear that they will be next to be 'disappeared, exiled, imprisoned, out of work, forced out of home, or just shot' It is how a Cult of Personality works, because they are so counter intuitive to regular market demands; they have to discredit dissent, when that fails, the killing starts. come back to this in ten years; and you can laugh and say I was paranoid, or o shiat the sumnabiatch was close enough ....because I sure as shiat wont still be in the US. | ||
| Baybueller |
City, I always enjoy your posts as you have a perspective that most in the US do not. | ||
| Eboos |
"of course I graduated the year the wall fell. Welcome to the new obsolete." lol, at least you aren't repairing typewriters. With the changes in my Pre Law program, it now de-emphasizes political science and now focuses more on writing, public speaking, constitutions and critical thinking. "they are not any smarter, wiser, or affective than the Soviets were, expect similar results" The Soviet model, and the Chinese model all started with a preindustrial society. The U.S. can't be socialized without a complete world economic collapse that is far beyond anything we have ever seen. Democracy is pretty much the natural result of the body of citizens having enough of a stake in wealth and property (between $5000 - $8000 GDP per capita) to be involved in politics and demand equal representation. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
run some numbers... it should up your paranoia. % of population working for the government % of population on govt assistance % of that didnt pay taxes % of population that own guns # of unemployment $ of consumer goods Decline of production, home ownership, graduation rates, and new restrictions on passports.... I have gone from thinking of getting out to PACKING. The Buell goes this week, the sporty goes into storage, the conex box is prepped. before september I am gone. | ||
| Blake |
Patrick, So hike the minimum wage by 20%. Plenty of states use sales tax. Are we not in favor of promoting success and opposed to subsidizing poor performance? | ||
| Eboos |
"Are we not in favor of promoting success and opposed to subsidizing poor performance?" Do you really think that question is answered so easily? Philosophically, yes, we are in favor of promoting success and opposed to subsidizing poor performance, but reality doesn't always fit into black and white, and life doesn't always fit neatly into any ideology. I would revise your statement with 'promoting opportunities for success'. That sounds a lot better to me, that way we don't have to worry about subsidizing people's failure. | ||
| Aesquire |
I really have to disagree with you on this one, Blake. IF you raise the minimum wage, you just raise prices. Simple cause and effect. make Minimum Wage $100,000 a year? Just create huge inflation. $20 Big Macs. The problem with consumption taxes, is that the rich can avoid them, where the poor cannot. And I'm not counting anyone near the average $50k as rich. Have my serious doubts about $250k/150k/100k/etc. all used in the socialist Hopey Changey guys speeches. ( Didn't take long for me to get back to bashing Barry, did it? ) When Clinton passed the "soak the rich luxury toy tax" all it did was kill the luxury labor market in the U.S. Yachts weren't built in Mass. or Conn. anymore. Big boom for Spain and Italy. Rich guys, people who can afford to take a small salary, and adjust their own income to avoid income tax, will just join "clubs" or adjust their buying habits to remote themselves from paying big tax on big items. Poor & Middle guys like me, can't afford to do all that, I'm stuck buying the item and paying tax. Besides, I'm in the 3rd highest taxed county in America. #1 & 2 are right down the road. They get better than 50% of my pay by the time I'm done. Unless you are going to slaughter them all and become King, they will never stop any of the other taxes and just add the one you propose. That's my bottom line. Severe cynicism. Btw, I pay over 8 1/2% sales tax now. (Message edited by aesquire on May 02, 2011) | ||
| Court |
>>>I'm in the 3rd highest taxed county in America. #1 & 2 are right down the road. They get better than 50% of my pay by the time I'm done. You can see us from where you are, right? 55% last year. That does not include tolls, 18.25% parking tax, sales tax or any of the other "hidden" tax. | ||
| Eboos |
"When Clinton passed the "soak the rich luxury toy tax" all it did was kill the luxury labor market in the U.S. Yachts weren't built in Mass. or Conn. anymore. Big boom for Spain and Italy." One of the best examples of avoiding taxes is Senator Kerry docking his yacht in RI instead of MA, the state he is a Senator for. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
"We ARE not in favor of promoting success and opposed to subsidizing poor performance!" Theres a position that Gallup had up for Healthcare consulting and sector analysis; I thought right up my damn alley.... until I got to the 'widget' that asks "personality" questions to see if you are a fit for the job.... It was a forty minute event, wanting around 20 to 30 seconds per answer... You were to select the Strongly Disagree, Disagree, Neutral, Agree, Strongly Agree... Some of the highlighted ones I remember It is important for you to work for a company you believe in. Do you get frustrated when people dont do their 'fair' share of work When supervising, do you Always Ask for help Do you like to be busy and energetic Are you inventive and think outside of the box? Are you motivated by money? Do you find value in peer appreciation? Healthcare Consultant - Business Development-01292 http://www.gallup.com/careers/search.aspx?careersL ang=en give it a try yourself, I wish I would have kept screen captures. I dont know what my score was, but my answers got me a SIZZLING auto reject ! so what is the answer, lie to get the job... or go with out? The healthcare analyst position at Bloomberg had similar results. | ||
| Gregtonn |
"National 20% sales tax..." So Senator Foghorn needs a few billion for his pet pork barrel project. No money in the budget? He trots out his favorite economist who yells, "Oil shortage!". Prices for everything from fuel to food go sky high. "Well lookie here!", says Foghorn, "We got plenty of money for a dozen pork projects and we didn't have to cut the budget or raise the tax rate or nuthin'." G | ||
| Blake |
Patrick, Prices go up on a burger and fries? So what? And really, what percentage of the adult workforce earns minimum wage? Sales/consumption tax works. Ask Texas. Wealthy can avoid it? Maybe; if they choose to live in a hut, not travel, not invest, not hire any services, and not purchase anything. Greg, >>> ... a stupid idea in the first place... I find your argument sorely lacking and you hypothesis implausible. One economist lacky does not hold such sway as you imagine, not only due to his own relative lack of influence, but also due to the countering statements of others. Finally, the total tax revenue would be run as an escrow account, with the rate adjusted annually to limit total annual receipts to some set percentage of GDP. In that way, no such artificial tax increase could threaten us. |
