| Author | Message | ||
     Sifo |
If we locked a clock away in a box long enough would it come to life? | ||
| Johnnylunchbox |
Sifo, I don't pretend to know that. Does the cloack have all the necessary molecular material to build DNA? | ||
| Buellkowski |
Sifo, I contended that evolutionary life does not violate the 2LofT, Blake called BS because of "more advanced, more orderly life", and I responded to his BS call. My "rock" analogy has more to do with that issue than with your OP. | ||
| Sifo |
Ikeman, sounds like The Language of God covers similar territory. I might have to take a look at it some day. I also want to read Atlas Shrugged. What I need for a while is some light reading. Reading a review of Collin's book it sounds like he gets into his theological beliefs too. Is that the case? One of the things I liked about Signature in the Cell is that he stayed away from theological beliefs other than disclosing that he does have a personal belief in God. | ||
| Sifo |
Does the cloack have all the necessary molecular material to build DNA? I've heard there's such a thing as a biological clock.  | ||
| Sifo |
Sifo, I contended that evolutionary life does not violate the 2LofT, Blake called BS because of "more advanced, more orderly life", and I responded to his BS call. My "rock" analogy has more to do with that issue than with your OP. I guess I just am still failing to make the connection of a rock being turned to dust having anything to do with design or origin of life. | ||
| Rudy |
A rock eroding to dust is a physical change, not a chemical change; hence, a comparison cannot be drawn between activation energy for a chemical rxn and a rock eroding. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I do not believe in spontaneous evolution of life any more than I believe in maggots spontaneously generating from rotting meat. I believe ID is the most logical origin of the universe and of life. That said, I do not understand the time sequences necessary to create fossilized bones and sea creatures. I don't see the time lines of the KT Boundary and the mass extinction event coinciding with a "young earth" model. I find these physical evidences of long time frame global changes incongruent with a literal 7 day creation narrative. Could a creator capable of universal genesis created a universe with "patina", built in aging? Sure. I prefer to believe God to be the supreme scientist. With each new discovery (not creation but discovery of what already exists) we see greater and greater degrees of logic and intent to the design. When man is able to intentionally create life from nothing, I'll take notice. | ||
| Sifo |
Just to hijack my own thread... I saw recently that someone is claiming to have found nails from the crucifixion of Christ. I read that some crucifixion nails (not from THE crucifixion) have been verified because they have bone fragments in them from when they were driven through the wrists. So if we were to find nails from THE crucifixion with bone containing DNA, scientists could in theory clone Jesus Christ. Could this be how the second coming of Christ comes about? Just having some fun of course, but it would be a scientific explanation for the "impossible" miracle. Scientists have provided explanations for things like how the red sea could have parted. | ||
| Unique_id |
Who created the creator... | ||
| Sifo |
What make gravity work? | ||
| Rudy |
>>What make gravity work? This is a red herring, no? Just because we don't fully understand how gravity works at this time doesn't mean much--at least in the context of the discussion on ID. | ||
| Sifo |
Not at all. We fully accept the law of gravity without fully understanding how it works. That is how science works. Theories are almost always of limited scope. ID limits it's scope to the evidence that there is design. It doesn't get into who the designer is much less who designed the designer is. Asking that is the red herring. | ||
| Aesquire |
Gravity is either curved space, a particle we don't know how to "see" yet, or waves we can detect, but not yet make. pick one, or all. Quantum mechanics has messed a lot of classic stuff up. The following will probably torque everyone off. Intelligent Design is philosophy, not science. There is no way to disprove or prove ID. It's philosophy. There are no experiments you can do, no observations you can make that will give you the serial number of the Master Engineer. Unless We do find the artists signature embedded in DNA, in which case, I was wrong. That said, "it just happened" seems unlikely to me too. I can be pretty positive about stating the Earth will be hit by a big rock. It's going to happen, since Jupiter is out there "pumping the swing" on asteroids, and some WILL fall into Earth crossing orbits, and some WILL hit the Earth. When? 2036? maybe sooner, maybe later. We haven't found, tracked, and kept tabs on all the rocks. Not even close. At the limits of science you have philosophy, and/or religion. Before the Big Bang? ( if it happened ) no way to know. Someday, if we are still around, develop faster than light travel, and much better telescopes, we will SEE what happened billions of years ago at the beginning..... How many? How old is the Universe? Best guess is more than 3 and less than 20 billion years. When we can do FTL we can then see what happened. Until then, we just look at echoes and listen to the stars. http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/uni_age.html One thing I'm sure of, people USE the idea of intelligent design to try and prove religious points. Bull. That's like saying that the idea the Yankee's are going to win the Pennant proves the Browns are the Best Football team. Or, Lemon + tire = picnic. Utter nonsense. Another thing I'm sure of, just because people are exploiting an idea for their own purposes, does not mean the idea is wrong. It may be, it might not. last rant..... Science is NEVER settled. Each day, year and century bring us a better understanding of the Universe. ( we hope ) All Science is an approximation, hopefully getting closer to the Truth. Sometimes we are just wrong. | ||
| Rotzaruck |
time sequences necessary to create fossilized bones Even way back when I was in school, they taught the "theory" of evolution as fact (mostly), and even more so now. So, people believe it as fact, as they were taught. I'm not convinced they really know how old those bones are either. Life is a mysterious thing, there are a lot of things I know and don't understand. But, I do know I don't understand. | ||
| Sifo |
There is no way to disprove or prove ID. It's philosophy. Is the big bang theory science of philosophy? Few would argue that it's not science, yet you point out it can't be proven (yet). Is geology a science? It is accepted as a science. It's a historical science that examines past events that can never be duplicated again. This is the same thing that looking at the origin of life is whether you are talking ID or any other theory. Evolutionary theory is the same thing with the same problems. All of this is considered to be science. I don't see where ID is any different just because of the implications if you find it to be a strong theory. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
I'm no expert nor professing a belief in the following but I recall watching something on Discovery that attempted to explain how life could have evolved on this planet given the astronomical odds against it. Basically, they surmised there are an infinite number of universes ( Recall the scene in the Matrix where Neo goes to meet the master program and all the various possible outcomes are broadcast on the TV tubes) Given there are an infinite number of universes with an infinite number of possible outcomes the odds are reduced that a given universe will provide the necessary ingredients for life. The cosmic lottery - so to speak. | ||
| Billp |
Maybe if the ID folks can prove got exists it might shake out something like this ? (rip Douglas Adams) The Babel fish is small, yellow and leech-like, and probably the oddest thing in the Universe. It feeds on brainwave energy recieved not from its own carrier but from those around it, It absorbs all unconscious mental frequencies from this brainwave energy to nourish itself with. the practical upshot of this is that if you stick a Babel fish in your ear you can instantly understand anything said to you in any language. Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mind-bogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see as a final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God. The argument goes like this : "I refuse to prove that I exist", says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing." "But", says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? it could not have evolved by chance. it proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED." "Oh dear", says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic. | ||
| Ourdee |
A clock or a bicycle is not a living thing. Evolution is mutation that happens to be favorable to a species to which it occurs. And in living things there are living machines on a molecular level. For some of the claims of evolution, these living molecular machines would have to morph in a manner likened to that of a bicycle turning into a motorcycle. Behe asked where did the pistons come from? You can go on to ask about any other part of the motorcycle up to and including the interaction of electricity, fuel/air mixture, carb, needle valves, float, tank connected with fuel hose, valve train, ignition timing, etc.? | ||
| Baybueller |
My rather simplistic question is who designed the designer. | ||
| Toona |
Quoteing Aesquire above: There are no experiments you can do, no observations you can make that will give you the serial number of the Master Engineer. Unless We do find the artists signature embedded in DNA, in which case, I was wrong. I believe this might be an answer to your question/thought process... It starts to explain Laminin around 2:45 of the video. Cooincidence? I think not. | ||
| Aesquire |
I can hypothesize that a certain rock is formed by granite being heated. I can then take granite and heat it. If I get that certain rock..... I have an experiment that others can replicate, and a theory. Maybe that's not how that rock is formed in nature. I can make huge diamonds with a little electricity, a graphite rod, a tiny seed diamond, vacuum, and microgravity. I don't think that's how nature makes them. Can you design life, and prove that's how it's done? ?? The answer is maybe and no. Get back to me when you have a panda. The big bang theory is one trying to fit an explanation to observed fact. ( cosmological background radiation ) Until we have much better tools, it's an idea, popular part of this last century. Not proven. Not Disproven. It is absolutely NOT the theory of everything. It has no explanation for the moments before the big bang. That's on the other side of a singularity. Scientists have a love/hate thing with singularities. I think they are part of observed reality, others prefer a more elegant one. So, yeah, a lot of science skirts the edges of philosophy. Most ALL of the "social sciences" have little foundation on science, at all. Geology isn't done yet, the coolest ideas like plate techtonics, are fairly recent. All the answers are not in. Some believe they never will be. Some believe There Are Things Man Was Not Meant To Know.  | ||
| Baybueller |
Guys, i respect your beliefs but as an ex Catholic, "nun scars to prove it", my burning question is why would an all powerful being allow children to die from outside trama or inside trama "ie disease"? | ||
| Aesquire |
Wow! Laminim is exactly like Yggdrasill, the World Tree, and the serpents that twine around her. Thank you for the revelation. To have one's faith strengthened by the miracles of creation in visible, physical form, it's inspiring. Ah, well. Off to bed, work in the AM. Snow. It seems that Fimbulwinter approaches, while all around cry the heat of summer is here. ( dang I want to go ride.... ) Loved the Adams quote. It's so jesuit. Now excuse me while I vanish in a puff of logic. | ||
| Aesquire |
Baybueller, That is a frequently asked question. Perhaps the motives of such beings are unknown to us. I'm sure I don't know. Unanswerable questions can be intriguing or painful. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Guys, i respect your beliefs but as an ex Catholic, "nun scars to prove it", my burning question is why would an all powerful being allow children to die from outside trama or inside trama "ie disease"? As an "ex Catholic", I'm sure that you are aware of original sin and fallen man. Death and disease are functions of this "fallen" state. IMHO, the fallen state is required in order to provide man with complete free will. How can one NOT believe in that which one can see with his own eyes and hold with his own hands? From an ID standpoint (as well as one of faith), the true nature of man is not physical but spiritual. That which we see and touch every day is not all that there is. If there is existence, a state of being, beyond the physical, one must choose to believe in that state or not. Each person must choose whether to believe in this existence or not. Free will is really all that we are. The rest is just noise. | ||
| Baybueller |
Ft B. my experiences were 45 yrs ago so I am a little fuzzy. I have always been a fan of most religions as the common theme is "dont be an a hole". I go with my tribes ideas before the missionaries. Be one with nature and the natural laws. | ||
| Gregtonn |
"my burning question is why would an all powerful being allow children to die from outside trama or inside trama "ie disease"?" You are assuming that to die is worse than living. How could one know? G | ||
| Pkforbes87 |
"I find these physical evidences of long time frame global changes incongruent with a literal 7 day creation narrative." 2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. I don't believe that the creation process occurred on a time line that is possible for our human minds to fully understand. An interesting idea I've mulled over for the past few years: The Bible says God is light, correct? What if that is quite literally the explanation to a long list of scientific issues that are yet unexplained. Do some reading about the consequences of special relativity, while keeping in mind that "God is light". The twin paradox is especially interesting. | ||
| Danger_dave |
The best part of being an agnostic is you get all the holidays without the guilt trip. |
