| Author | Message | ||
     Cowboy |
Aesquire I dont have any of arguing about him but this is the way I see it. As you may or may not know I married in to a family that is split in thier relligon, part of them are christan and part is muslim (Indonesia) as his step father is indoneaian he is very popular there with the muslem people there and it is commonly told they are very proud of the fact that most of the believe he he is muslim. If you look at the way he has handled the trouble in the mid-east he has leaned very far to support the rebles and walk a way from countrys that have been allied with the USA (although they are very bad people we did have some kind of a relation with them whitch is better than none)any one that cant see that all the rebles are led by the muslim brother hood. dont know a damn thing about Arabs. all I ask is to listen to what they dont say not what they do say. I have been very closely associated with the mid-east and south east Asia sience 1970, lets just wait and see | ||
| Gregtonn |
Mox, Thanks for the input. 20k to 60k gallons per acre per year would certainly be reasonable, especially if processing energy is 25% or less of the total energy available. Sure beats ethanol from corn. As to protein producing sludge at $4.50 a pound prior to precessing... not so sure that's a cost saving over more conventional sources. G | ||
| Moxnix |
Monsanto just bought Saphire Energy to acquire their algae biotech. Saphire was a Bill Gates start-up. Algae will get a leg up sooner in the biochem trades, which will give a leg up to the biofuel side. Big Pharma wants clean sludge from a closed-loop bioreactor, not pond raised with bird droppings, hence the premium. Also, in processing for biofuel, the cake will be relatively low monetary worth, being little more than compacted protein powder with a nutritional value in a local economy. Food in the developing world, feed in the domestic market. In a closed-loop system, water as a growing medium is recycled. Feeding the algae w/CO2 can be measured against O2 bled off during the process, demonstrating greenhouse gas reduction. I haven't the resources to build a "farm" stretching from San Diego to Brownsville, but it might make a decent border fence. (Message edited by moxnix on April 13, 2011) | ||
| Cityxslicker |
of course the chinese do an awful lot of petalling on these things called bicycles.... | ||
| Luftkoph |
Hugh Not only make them do there own taxes,but also have no taxes deducted from your paycheck,instead we have to pay a lump sum near the end of the year like say the 1st monday in november.I wonder how that would effect the elections? Johnnymceldoo lets let the market decide the prices not uncle sugar,price fixing doesn't work to good ask R.M. Nixon | ||
| Bwbhighspl |
20k to 60k gallons per acre per year (Cheshire cat grin here) Let's run the numbers. The US consumes about 21 million barrels of oil per day. Multiple that by 42 gallons per barrel, and then times 365 for the number of days, and we're at 322 billion gallons per year. You say 20-60k per acre; let's go with an average of 40k. We would need: 322 billion / 40k = number of acres needed This comes out to 8 million acres needed for us to make our own gas out of algae. The US is 2.3 billion acres. As a percent: 8 million /2.3 billion = 0.03% So far so good. But not all land is created equal; some of it is lakes, some of it is cities, and some of it is in Alaska. Alaska is a no-go for agriculture. That brings us down to 1.9 billion. Take out the cities and the rural areas, and we're down to 1.7 billion (includes highways). We have crops, to the tune of 350 million, so now we're down to 1.3 billion. You like beef? That runs you 800 million acres of grazing. Toss in another 300 million for public lands and domestic live stock. Down to 1 billion. How about national parks? Me too. Great for a motorcycle ride. That runs you 900 million, and dips us under the billion mark to....100 million. 8 million / 100 million comes out to about 10% of the USA that would need to be converted to algae in order to create our fuel. We can deal with that. Not great, but not horrible. Of course, desserts won't work, mountains won't work, and we assumed a modest octane output, but at least we're in the ball park. Right?? Ready for the nail in the coffin? We won't get year-round algae growth; it won't happen in the middle of the winter in North Dakota....or a slew of other northern states. Mathematics: 1 Algae fuel : 0 I won't be investing my money in algae gas any time soon. It fails the sniff test, and not because it stinks (ducks shoe). http://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/gre en-science/us-gas-addiction.htm http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_much_gasoline_can_be _made_from_one_barrel_of_crude_oil https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Uni ted_States http://www.westernwatersheds.org/watmess/watmess_2 002/2002html_summer/article6.htm | ||
| Johnnymceldoo |
Like I said; $8 per gallon of gas, $5 per gallon of milk etc. and we all start consuming less and being more friendly to our earth and start putting our poor to work making wind machines and solar panels. | ||
| Moxnix |
If we all listened to naysayers, we'de still be farting through fig leaves. | ||
| Sayitaintso |
Clark, buddy, you need to slow down...who said anything about replacing 100% of the US gas usage? With that in mind, the rest of your post is kinda pointless. | ||
| Aesquire |
Putting our poor to work making wind machines? How about fences, or hydroelectric dams? WPA 21st century style? I don't get it? Are you rich enough that massive inflation and being poorer means nothing? raise the price of energy, and the poor go hungry, the working folk tighten their belts, and have less to give to charity, to clothe their children. You want people to starve? Children to be cold? Oh, I get it, you're a Republican Operative! You want us all to be slaves to the giant oil companies! Sorry Comrade, Didn't mean to argue with the Party Line. Carry on! | ||
| Strokizator |
Assuming, of course, that the poor even want to work. Are you talking forced labor? Do I have to pay them prevailing wage rates even though they are unskilled? Will they be forced to join a union? Sorry, it doesn't work so easily. | ||
| Hootowl |
Won't work in deserts? Sorry buddy, you're going to have to 'splain that one for me, because I don't get it. The algae don't rely on rain water. The water is recycled, and it is likely that they'll be using sea water anyway. | ||
| Sayitaintso |
Jeff, I'm with you. The deserts seem like ideal places for algae farms. There is definitely plenty of sunshine in the deserts, and its not like you're taking arable land away from farming like the current ethanol crops are doing. | ||
| Hootowl |
Right. That's a crime everyone knows is taking place, but for some reason the subsidy money keeps flowing from the tax coffers. Bastards. Read an article yesterday that said US catfish farmers were going belly up because the price of grain has gone up so much. We're importing catfish from China now. Algae will not replace oil. Nothing is going to replace oil. It's a bargain, even at $100 a barrel. But we don't have to replace oil, we just have to reduce (eliminate?) our imports. | ||
| Sifo |
Won't work in deserts? Sorry buddy, you're going to have to 'splain that one for me, because I don't get it. The algae don't rely on rain water. The water is recycled, and it is likely that they'll be using sea water anyway. I don't know enough about the algae thing to really have an opinion on if it's feasible or not. It's technology that is in it's infancy. Feasibility has much to do with how expensive oil gets through natural market forces or government manipulation. What I'm pretty certain of is that the deserts in the US are mostly a long way from seawater. Are these a truly closed system where you can control evaporation? If so then why put them in the desert? | ||
| Blake |
>>> Ready for the nail in the coffin? >>> We won't get year-round algae growth; it won't happen in the middle of the winter in North Dakota....or a slew of other northern states. In addition to what Dennis (Sayitaintso) states, don't you think the estimate of 20,000 to 60,000 per acre per year accounts for that? You know, 20,000 per acre per year for places like North Dakota, but 60,000 per acre per year in regions like Southern Florida? | ||
| Sayitaintso |
Tom - everything that I've seen shows that they are working off closed systems, but like you said they are in their infancy so only time will tell for sure. Think of a giant radiator type thing made of glass tubes, angled to get max solar exposure. Kinda like a solar system made of glass tubes. | ||
| Aesquire |
The secret is co-generation. Like a hybrid car, you have to be smart to use all the right factors. For example, solar farms need storage so you get power at night. IF you built banks of Edison iron/acid cells, you could use the Hydrogen gas produced ( a feature/issue with Edison Cells ) to run generators, or store it for use elsewhere. Also Edison cells don't use precious ( and Chinese controlled ) rare earth metals, and are very mature technology. ( Jay Leno's Baker uses them ) http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/jay-leno/vint age/4215940 No way you are going to build ponds in the desert to make fuel, unless you also doing a terraforming project to use the vapor to grow crops too. Not going to happen with current enviroweenie rules. ( not saying it SHOULD ) Any Algae system is going to use lots of glass pipe, huge plastic bags, and natural sunlight, since running grow lamps is only profitable for Orchids and Pot. Closed loop to recover nutrients, waste, and water. Like to see more research. Heck, genegeneer hamsters to give diesel milk for all I care. I'll build milking machines. | ||
| Hootowl |
"If so then why put them in the desert?" Because nothing else will grow there, and they get lots of sun light. There's no reason to take up farmland, or places that could become farmland, with bio crops. Unless you believe ethanol is a viable fuel source, which I believe has been proven to not be the case. Sea water can be trucked in. We truck gasoline and ethanol all over the place. (Can't pipeline ethanol, it absorbs water too readily. This is once more reason gasoline prices have risen. Trucking ethanol across the country to refiners to get blended in with gasoline is expensive.) And since the water is recycled, once the tanks are full, very little additional water would be required to sustain operations. | ||
| Sifo |
Growing algae in glass tubes filled with sea water in the desert sounds incredibly labor intensive with very high maintenance. If it can be done cost effectively it would be great. I am pretty skeptical though (could have to do with other "free energy" schemes that have been promised for decades, but need huge government funding). I'm not a fan of big social engineering projects to make this sort of thing work. If there's a real profit incentive private industry will make it work. Anyone have any info on waste products that need to be dealt with between sunshine & water to the point of having usable fuel? | ||
| Sayitaintso |
I am pretty skeptical though I dont blame you....anyone thats had a fish tank near a window can attest to the difficulty of keeping glass clean. | ||
| Sifo |
I dont blame you....anyone thats had a fish tank near a window can attest to the difficulty of keeping glass clean. How did you know?  | ||
| Aesquire |
Why environmentally fragile deserts? Why not industrial land in places like LA? Or Miami? run pipes over existing structures which will also shade them and reduce the AC load. We don't know what the final, most efficient system will look like. Probably lots and lots of plastic bladders, pumps, separation tanks and glass piping. Shallow plastic bladders might be made light enough for rooftop installation. Ultimately we could use solar asphalt and pave super highways with solar collectors, but the tech isn't quite there yet. Orbital solar still seems more environmentally friendly to me. As does asteroid mining, Lunar Helium3 harvesting, and actually building nuclear reprocessing systems with 21st century tech, instead of 1950's. | ||
| Hootowl |
Oil is a dense readily available source of energy. If we want to reduce imports, it's going to take not one, but many different alternative sources. If it can be produced in the US without government subsidy, I say go for it. | ||
| Hootowl |
"Why environmentally fragile deserts?" The fleas and spiders will be fine. | ||
| Aesquire |
Cowboy, no insult intended. I'm just tired of idiots ( not you ) parroting stupid stuff. I'm increasingly convinced the "birther" thing is Obama's ticket to declaring ALL his opposition invalid and to be ignored. and, yes, I'm aware he was raised Muslim, and has permission to lie about being of that faith. Still I believe his conversion to his collectivist faith is real, and I'm not bound by islamic law to punish him for Apostasy. I do find it odd that no major Jihadi leaders have called for his punishment for his public repudiation of Islam. So you may indeed be right, and he IS the jihadi Machurian Candidate. But. Since I can't tell any difference in his actions if he's evil in one flavor or another, the point seems moot. He'd do the same things I disagree with if his motivations are pure pragmatic marxist, infiltrated jihadi, or a combination of both. I do know he sure hasn't pumped his own gas for a few years. Or paid the bill. | ||
| Cowboy |
Att Aesquire no ofence taken--one thing I feel sure of (no proof) is he is in George Soros pocket. there is just to many things that point in that direction. | ||
| Sayitaintso |
I just read a quick blurb about a company that was working on the type system we're talking about. A short synopsis: Founded by an MIT professor Successful pilot project in Mass. Scaled up in Arizona desert...and it bombed. They couldn't keep the algae alive, too much and too intense sunlight. Back to the drawing/bioengineering board. They're still working on it. I cant kill the damn stuff and they cant keep it alive (go figure) | ||
| Aesquire |
Hootowl, tracks of dunebuggies in the desert are eternal abominations in the eyes of the envirowakkos. Industrial refinery stuff in the Mojave is obviously a Greenie no no. You can still see the tracks of the Wagon trains from the 1800's in many places, so they actually have a point. Never mind the mindset that no one should be allowed out of the city hives to violate the pristine beauty of Mother Nature. | ||
| Sayitaintso |
You can still see the tracks of the Wagon trains from the 1800's in many places, so they actually have a point. They'll be excavated in 10 million years like dinosaur footprints are today. These are priceless artifacts. |
