| Author | Message | ||
     Blake |
Kowski, >>> Does your outrage have something to do with "too much government" D'UH! WAY too much government! We now have IRS agents being hired fixin' to check up on is to see if we have the proper health insurance, or else. WTF!!! | ||
| Davegess |
Sucks pretty bad if you don't have insurance and it cost WAY too much. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
Ah, insurance,.... it is a loosing casino. Do This exercise Take all the money you would have spent on premiums, for you and your family. Now add up all the services, Rxs, dental, glasses, visits, and equipment that you purchased..... Unless you had an inpatient stay subsequent to a health failure your numbers are way out of sync..... so the solution? Radical idea. One that will now land you in contempt of the IRS You purchase a high deductible, catastrophic major med plan, pay for the services you use on your own, bank your 'extra' premium in to a HSA, 401K or Keough..... you should come out ahead, every year. this is exactly what I have done since 1996; and I WORK insurance. (it is like Vegas, the house is stacked against you) oooooh but what about the end of lifers that suck money out of the funds as they sink.... (that should be covered by a life policy once they reach terminal state, as indeed there are no more health options for them) And if you had all the money backinto your account that the government bilks from you for SSA, Medicare, Medicaid, Unemployment, FICA and a mystical tax scale (go to a flat tax already-thin the herd at IRS) would not your standard of living increase dramaticly - without any increase in 'labor' costs from your work ?..... There should be an opt out - I aint ever going to see SSA; I shouldnt have to contribute to it. Dont even get me started on this new bill. I am publishing the Ebooks as fast as I can proof them, this bill is looking to be a ripe source of material for at least 5 years.... and then it will be time to tackle the actual POLICIES that the bill has set up.... it gets way ugly before it ever gets better. DAMHIK. | ||
| Court |
It was bad before . . .then along came Obama and made it an absolute disaster. . . that's just the health care. . not all the stuff they had hidden in the bill they'd let no one read. As Nancy Pelosi said . . "we need to pass it to know what's in it". We're now starting to see . . . . We deserve better leaders. We are further from a real solution, not closer. I've written off ever seeing any of the hundreds of thousands I've contributed to social security. | ||
| Aesquire |
I've said this before, and I'll keep saying it, no matter how un-PC it is. If you ended the welfare state, all federal aid to the poor, and eliminated the federal agencies that run it, you'd have riots. The Guard can handle the poor people and drones, the parts of town that would burn would be easily replaced by parks, ( what happened in Rochester ) and in a few weeks the problem would be solved. So don't worry about the poor. The millions of fired Federal employees would kill you. Better paid, armed and far more hostile than the drones and deliberately kept poor folk. After all, they have to deal with the drones and poor, and are already cynical and callous about the system they are part of. ( you listen to some joker who has a big screen tv, 2 luxury suv's, and a boyfriend who grosses more monthly than you do yearly selling drugs complain that life aint fair and she needs more money.... and hasn't worked a real job. Ever. Tell me how sympathetic you would be..... ) The ones who have clawed their way to higher paid and privileged positions are the most hostile and have the most to lose from gov. cutbacks. It's a cut throat world for CYA on a major scale. Ever expanding little kingdoms of power with never a thought of "does this program work?" EVER. Power, wealth, and comfort to the tune of Trillions of dollars. Think I'm kidding? Look at the Wisconsin protests, with Communist Party and professional protesters bussed in to give weight to the Union power base. Look at Greece, England, and soon Spain, etc.. I still haven't heard of any "teachers" & "doctors" getting prosecuted for fraud for getting "sick notes", in public. How evil is that governor, anyway? Cities right about insurance. They are bookies, and they can't stay in business if they don't have the odds calculated correctly. Government not only can't calculate the odds, they deny that the odds are real. Any govt. insurance program will fail to function without massive infusions of your money, since the rules are written by people ( who work for your congresscritters, who are mostly functional illiterates in everything except getting elected ) who base law on "ideals" that match the polls, and the whim of their bosses. That's why they write rules that demand services, and then force others to pay. ( Your State, County, and always, always, YOU ) Of course, Plastic surgery is a RIGHT! As is Aromatherapy, Massage therapy, ( ok, I agree with that one ) and color therapy, all paid for by you, not the patient. Wonder why mAdicare is perpetually a drain on your state, and is always broke? | ||
| Blake |
>>> Sucks pretty bad if you don't have insurance and it cost WAY too much. Don't lots of things in life suck pretty bad when one is unprepared for them or just plain unfortunate/unlucky? Does it not also suck pretty bad when people allow themselves to become obese, choose to drink too much, abuse drugs, willingly expose themselves to highly risky sexual behavior, use tobacco products, or even just live a sedentary lifestyle? Does that not suck pretty bad? Does it not suck pretty bad that others should be forced to bear the burden of the predictable consequences of such risky poor behavior freely chosen? Freedom or nanny state? I choose freedom. How much does it suck to work hard or invest but then be forced to hand over more than half of the fruits of said labor or investment to gov't so that some of the most corrupt people in America (see Charlie Rangel, Jim Jeffords and others of their ilk) in order to give it to others whom they feel need it more? (Message edited by Blake on April 03, 2011) | ||
| Blake |
>>> Sucks pretty bad if you don't have insurance and it cost WAY too much. Yet somehow, the success rate for treating cardiac and oncological disease (cancer) is better in America than in Britain or other developed nations with socialized health care. Explain. Why do people of means from Canada and other nations with socialized health care travel to America for more timely treatment instead of waiting in prolonged queues. We've heard the horror stories of folks dying while awaiting potentially life saving treatment. It is fact. The OECD even admits it. Is it not informative to compare/contrast the medical treatments and preventative medicine (pharmaceuticals) of today to those available 40, 30, 20, even ten years ago? Is there no reason why the cost of medical care has increased? Much of that was developed because enterprising folks saw a profitable business opportunity. But I do agree that some costs are inflated. It is inevitable whenever government activists inject themselves into the system. That and thanks to our poorly evolved insurance schemes where customers (patients, parents, etc) are divorced from the day to day transactions. In short, what Jeremy said. Another question: Why have the costs of dental care, eye care, and elective cosmetic surgery not risen with the rest of the medical system? The answer is clear. While the treatments in those fields have advanced incredibly, the costs have remained relatively stable because those fields of medicine are mostly left to market forces, free enterprise. It works. The converse is also true. Whenever big government interferes with wholesome, healthy free enterprise, the products/services involved and the costs all suffer. Is health insurance a constitutional right? Killing unborn babies is too? Please explain. Hearts bleed for the dregs of society, yet are cold and hardened towards the most innocent and helpless? It defies comprehension. Fight for the lives of the absolutely innocent and helpless, those with ZERO choice or say or ability to defend themselves in the matter of life and death, of being torn limb from limb, stabbed in the neck or submerged in flesh searing sodium solution. Then come talk to me about how it sucks to get cancer or heart disease. Death is not preventable. If it doesn't benefit the general welfare of our nation, then it has no business being law. With over 80% insured, children insured (SCHIP), seniors (medicare) insured, and the poor insured (medicaid) all that was left was working age adults. Do you really believe this is about helping poor people? We should all be free to choose how we may come to the aid of others. Is theft moral? From my view, most Democrats seem to think so. Should everyone have a right to medical treatment, no matter how complex and expensive it might be? | ||
| Blake |
Dave, Infant mortality is highly variable by state and region. I dare you to compare it on a state by state basis and find a correlation. The criteria used by different countries in classifying such deaths also warrants investigation. The underlying reason for a less than top score is not due to poor medical care. Can we agree on that? Also, does it not seem like a very short step from failing to value the lives of the unborn to not valuing the lives of infants? Why is one so important, yet the other dismissed as inconsequential? Why is a natural death of an ailing infant unacceptable, while the murder of healthy unborn babies is encouraged? Black is white; up is down? | ||
| Davegess |
You guys are the double talkers. I just gave the facts. We pay a lot for bad outcomes by pretty much any measure. What that means or what we do about it are political questions. The facts are the facts and they are not the fault of the Democrats or the Republicans and certainly they nave NOTHING to do the evil, wicked Obama | ||
| Blake |
I think the core disagreement comes down to supporting or opposing continued government largess and ever increasing government intervention/activism. I blame Bush and Obama, Roosevelt and Johnson, but mainly Marx and those who support his ideas. Slaves to health insurance for all is what many are becoming. At what point does prolonging the life of everyone free of charge cost too much? Where do we draw the line? Who gets to decide? The free-market system provides the only acceptable answer to that question. Anything else generates vast corruption, graft, partisan political agendas. | ||
| Davegess |
The free-market system provides the only acceptable answer to that question. Anything else generates vast corruption, graft, partisan political agendas. How would that look? Give me a plan that provides care to everyone in the US that would want care. WE don't do it now. Also you all you should look at Norway. Horribly oppressed socialist Norway. Extremely high taxes, no jobs, no businesses being started, government hugely corrupt and going broke. Oh wait only two of the above statements are true. Not saying we should emulate Norway; just that there is more than one way to skin a cat. | ||
| Kenm123t |
Dave name the last great innovation by the Norskies. Other than the LUTEFISK!. I was married to one,nice folks hard working. The Minnesota , North Dakota Norskies think the only proper careers are Farmer Lutheran pastor pronounced Luthrin and Lutefisk Distributor. Enjoyed the ex in laws and her her extended family her not so much why the Ex was added to wife (Message edited by Kenm123t on April 03, 2011) | ||
| Davegess |
Ken, they produce a lot more entrepreneurs than we do. One theory is that the only way to make a ton of money in Norway is to start your own business so many do. Another is that the socialistic system has removed many of the obstacles to starting your own business, you have a pretty good minimum level of living taken care of so you can more readily endure the first few years of business start up when you are often very short of cash. Interesting country, not sure I could endure winter there; very dark. | ||
| Aesquire |
Infant death rate is very high and our life expectancy is not moving up. last I heard, our life expectancy was going up, and Obama gets credit. Fine by me. I'm not sure about that infant death rate. In the U.S. they count every baby that makes it out of the mothers body, old school, or like Caesar. Many are quite premature, just haven't baked that bun long enough, yet we save many today though just a few years back they would be considered hopeless. In fact they still are considered hopeless in much of Europe, and so, they don't count the extreme preemies in their infant mortality statistics. ( hopeless, of course, meaning a drain on the precious resources of society. A true statement.) Oddly that gives some countries a much better infant mortality rate, even though more babies by percentage are buried. As my Father often says, "figures don't lie, but liars figure like crazy". The difference is in how the decisions of humane treatment are made. I prefer ours, but there is much to be said for cultures that let the old die, saving the precious tax money for younger people and bureaucrats. Of course, I'm getting old, and even though I know the majority of health care money is absorbed taking care of old sick people, I'm kinda hoping to get to be one, someday. Not likely, since if we adopt the Dutch system, the docs can off me if they decide I'm hopeless. ( too expensive ) At least they kill you there in a bed with an opiate overdose, a far more pleasant way to go than the idiocy we use on rape murderers in prison. The facts are the facts and they are not the fault of the Democrats or the Republicans and certainly they nave NOTHING to do the evil, wicked Obama I agree, the Dems and Reps and Obama have darn little to do with the establishment of overburdened systems in Europe. Some here wish to copy it, but cause and effect is one way with the arrow of time. The facts, however, are not the facts, they are the spin, and provably wrong. I like Norway. My ancestors escaped from there. I wonder about "the socialistic system removed...." bit. A lot like staying home with Mommy to be able to afford to open a business? There's something to that. Choice. Some good, some bad. More is better, IMHO. If that's the only way you can do better than a shop clerk..... | ||
| Two_seasons |
Dave: Since we both live in the same climate, I'd like to discuss what the WI gov't had offered my family back in 2003. At the time we were starting our new business and I was on the road marketing it (not our landscaping business, BTW). Two years earlier I had quit my job as a regional sales mgr. and in 2003 was blowing through cash by the fistful. Enter my wife's pleas and the gov't generosity! I had spent down our savings to a critical point of no return. My wife pleaded with me to seek out gov't assistance for our childrens health care. And so we did. We got our children enrolled in Badger Care. Just a bridge for child health care, we thought, until this new invention took off. We were thankful to have coverage "just in case" and with children, always a good idea. Enter gov't largess. What we did not know when we signed up for Badger Care (SCHIP) was that there were many agencies behind this one that were lining up to "help" us. We were offered so many different programs to help us with no real end point mentioned. My wife and I concluded that after several offers of additional help these agencies were willing to give us just about anything under the sun. And why not, it's not their money! In summary, gov't is very quick to provide their services as it bolsters their numbers and of course their budget(s). As time goes on these same agencies are embedded into our culture. Their very existence, over time, is guaranteed! SCHIP was used by us as a bridge, not a permanent way of life. We were grateful to the taxpayers who ultimately provided this service. If my wife and I wanted to, at the time, we could have enrolled in multiple programs and possibly to this day, continued to feed off the public teat. No thank you. | ||
| Sifo |
Give me a plan that provides care to everyone in the US that would want care. WE don't do it now. Nobody gets the health care they WANT... Anywhere. Some systems will give you the care the government decides you will get. Some systems will give you the health care you earn. The US system is a blend of the two that still provides an incentive to promote advancements in medicine. Once you lose that incentive, you lose advancement. Once you do that nobody gets the care that could have been possible. If you take that incentive out of the US system, what country will be pushing advancements? | ||
| Doerman |
Also you all you should look at Norway. Horribly oppressed socialist Norway. Extremely high taxes, no jobs, no businesses being started, government hugely corrupt and going broke. Oh wait only two of the above statements are true All of the above would be true IF Norway was not the world's 3rd largest crude oil exporter and and number 2 in Natural gas. That enormous income helps a great deal in performing all sorts of social engineering experiments, many with very undesirable outcomes. Each and every Norwegian citizen has over $400,000 in state owned wealth behind them. Yet, there are queues for getting medical care. Elderlies are warehoused in crummy "homes". Starting a business is difficult unless you are "politically connected". I talk with my siblings weekly so this is not from the papers or old knowledge. Why is the European systems so admired by liberals in this country is beyond me. All they did was to replace the kings as the ruling entity with the government. Nothing has changed, they are still serfs. We, on the other hand, have a brilliant constitution and the Euro-lovers amongst us aim to break it down at every opportunity and replace it with state or union created serfdom. Disgusting! | ||
| Doerman |
you have a pretty good minimum level of living taken care of so you can more readily endure the first few years of business start up when you are often very short of cash. False.. If you start up a business, you will need enough cash to endure a 6-12 month discovery process to understand if you are or can meet all the regulations pertaining to the business you will operate. Next up is to engage the union representative (if you have more than 10 employees) to reach a frame agreement on compensation package and work safety rules. Next up is to pay a 12% investment tax on assets you buy and deploy. Your first hire is an accountant that is well versed in corporate and withholding tax. If you do it wrong, the business is shut down immediately. An example: My brother wanted to develop some land for housing. It took him SIX YEARS to secure all the permits and a ton in fees to do so. Business friendly? I think not. | ||
| Aesquire |
I absolutely question the sustainability of the European Socialist Democracy Health service plans. There's no doubt that the current semi socialized one here has issues, and it looks like following Europe is not a good idea. If you follow the trends, the U.S. economic system, and a few of our allies from WWII and beyond, are by far the most productive and care best for the environment and it's citizens. I note that most medical research takes place where a profit motive is served, along with a free and charitable people with a better standard of living. Japan, England, etc. all are far better places to be than all of the marxist, fascist, and other theocratic states. Real facts of comparison would make points better than assertions with no backing... What are my odds on surviving a massive heart attack? Or getting my Private bits sewn back on so that they work after a barb wire incident? And how are you going to take care of all the old people? Use conscript labor to run the old folks homes like Germany? ( a system that is breaking down because of demographics. ) Or do you favor Obamacare, with it's worth panels that will decide when you are too expensive to live? ( Paul Krugman believes the "death panels" will be the saving of America. He may be right. ) | ||
| Kenm123t |
Hey death panels your on to something if we can get the lefty lib recessives to lead by example. Since they are the biggest expense we have ! | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Give me a plan that provides care to everyone in the US that would want care. WE don't do it now. Ever been to an all you can eat pizza bar? Ever been to one run by a company thin on resources and trying to pinch a penny? Plenty of pizza or scant few pieces scarfed by a big fat guy? Meat lovers or mostly cheese? Our healthcare is great because people are willing to pay top dollar for it. Take away the financial incentive, and our system suffers. When the majority of medical technologies, new medicines, and procedures are coming from socialized systems, I'll belief they are the "best". My wife worked for a cardiac and thoracic surgical center that served TennCare patients. TennCare is TN's version of "socialized medicine". It accepts all folks who are declined by traditional carriers. The recipients paid nothing for their care and nothing for their medication. You only have to get "on". She would regularly see folks with recent heart/lung transplants standing outside with an IV smoking. What the hell do they care, they'll just get another heart. The system short changed the providers and had massive cost overruns in the state budget nearly bankrupting TN. When the costs for care are separated from the payment for care, people treat the healthcare system like an all you can eat pizza bar. The lowest payers are the fat guy taking 10 pieces from the bar at a time. Our system is expensive not because healthcare is expensive. Our system is expensive because we have too many free riders in the system. About 50,000,000 illegal, burrito eating, free riders. Those costs must be absorbed by the system and transferred to the payers into that system. All that Obamacare has done is make every man woman and child a free rider in the healthcare system. The end result is going to be higher costs, lower access to physicians, and lower quality. Cost, access, quality. These are the three variables, and you can only keep two of the three at the desired levels. Low cost and high quality mean that the free loaders don't get in. High cost and high quality mean the free loaders access the system on the payers dime. High quality and high access to physicians means high costs. Let's start by enforcing immigration laws, actively and passively deporting illegal immigrants, and secure our borders. THEN let's look at what our healthcare system looks like. Mexico doesn't want this because behind oil American dollars sent south by illegal immigrants is the largest source of income for the Mexican economy. http://articles.latimes.com/2009/jun/02/world/fg-m exico-remittance2 | ||
| Blake |
>>> How would that look? Give me a plan that provides care to everyone in the US that would want care. WE don't do it now. Can't afford it? No one willing to help give it to you? You don't get it. Simple. Why is it imperative that everyone, including those living unhealthily and lazily be gifted free access to all manner of medical care, so much so that all productive folks are forced to hand over their hard-earned income to pay for it? Please explain. Why is theft okay? | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
High Deductible "stop loss" HSA plans are cheap. There isn't anyone who can't afford one. No it doesn't provide for doctor visits or prescriptions, but it does protect against the large, expensive medical issues. Those who pay nothing shouldn't have for free what I pay full price for. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
High Deductible "stop loss" HSA plans are cheap. There isn't anyone who can't afford one. No it doesn't provide for doctor visits or prescriptions, but it does protect against the large, expensive medical issues. Those who pay nothing shouldn't have for free what I pay full price for. | ||
| Blake |
That's my approach, $5K deductible then it pays 100%. Too easy. Too simple. Costs me a whopping $130/mo. | ||
| Reindog |
Those of the Left persuasion... What say you? Blake's argument is hard to refute. Actually, it absolutely doesn't matter that you continue to cling to your mistaken beliefs. The Hammer is coming so you better get prepared. We are. Progessives, nee Democrats, and Socialists have backed ourselves into an unsustainable corner and that is crashing down...soon. We will remember who got us deep into this Socialist Swamp. We don't forgive nor forget. Well, maybe a little forgiveness to those who choose to open their eyes. -Nastier Homer. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
Y'all will be happy to note that a country that was under socialist rule and control for near 80 years is breaching into commercial insurance and market driven health care. Come to Ukraine ! (honestly, I expect most of the domestic carriers to leave the country with in five years, set up business over seas, and offer 'tourist' type coverage to Americans-.... it is exactly what happened on a smaller scale when commercial individual policies FLED Washington state in 96 - we were a blueprint for the national stupidity; expect the same results) | ||
| Blake |
One of the inevitable consequences of entrusting management of medical care to big brother. | ||
| Court |
You think we'd learn . . . but we simply don't. It's a shame our collective intellect fails to reflect what is intuitive to our individual common sense. By the way Blake . . interesting person you'd enjoy . . I'm getting sucked into this academic black hole.  | ||
| Aesquire |
Blake, did you read the complaints from the Brit police? They were forbidden to report, or take reports on, crimes to keep the statistics up for the politicians. So while gun violence, robberies and assaults went up, the politicians could claim a reduction. Like the unemployment figures for Feb in the U.S.... Reported as going down, but actually went up. This was not the usual cherry picking of which statistic to report. Normally, only people who are actively seeking work through the system count as unemployed, for news purposes. The "real" number, including folk who's unemployment insurance had ended is not widely reported, as it has been running over 16%. ( this is not an Obama problem, this is the way it's been done for years ) But in Feb, they changed the number of people looking for work down arbitrarily. That changes the divisor in the equation, ( 1/5 is smaller than 1/4 ) making the stats look smaller than reality. Reported at 8.9% instead of the unfaked 9.8% ( going up, not down ) Just in time for the reelection announcement. http://www.davemanuel.com/2011/03/04/february-2011 -job-numbers-national-unemployment-rate-hits-lowes t-level-since-april-2009/ You need to have math skills, but the data IS in here...... ( A15 chart numbers ) http://www.bls.gov/home.htm http://www.gallup.com/poll/146147/Gallup-Finds-Une mployment-Mid-February.aspx As my Father often says, "Figures don't lie, but liars figure like crazy". |
