| Author | Message | ||
     Bads1 |
Actually even a WRX is going run ya 25 plus once your out the door. | ||
| 1324 |
I've owned 'small' cars my entire life with a few exceptions along the way: 83 GTi, 84 Scirocco, 96 Jetta, 03 SVT Focus, 06 WRX, 05 STI...and I can honestly say that they are in a different class than these 'micro' cars like the Mini. The newer Mini has grown in size, but still...all those compacts that are available now really aren't all that small. With the exception of my GTI and Scirocco, neither were my cars. The Citroen, A1, some of Peugots, etc. are all smaller cars. Does smallness matter? Probably not. But, while my STi was the best handling factory car I've ever owned, the Mini was completely different. Not to say better, but different. The STi was kart like, but the Mini was truly kart like - in feel and proportions. | ||
| Svh |
Xl1200R- None of those vehicles you have listed are technically small cars. Some are 2 door coupes and others are 4 doors but none considered a small car unless you put the GTI in as one which it hardly is now. Even the new Fiesta is larger than most of these small sporty cars being discussed. | ||
| Xl1200r |
Like it or not, they're all small cars by today's standards. Why should something as trivial as exterior dimensions be a deciding factor? | ||
| 1324 |
Why? Because size matters...but the inverse here is true... Smaller cars are typically lighter...the supercharged Mini S weighed in less than 2700 which is light by today's standards. Plus, the Mini had a great aspect ratio with inherent stability. Furthermore, short overhang on both ends contributes to a lower polar moment of inertia. Size does matter...but so does the placement of the mass. Kinda sounds familiar, again. The Mini's front strut suspension is very conventional, but it works. The multi-link rear suspension, although not as nice as double wishbone, has a clear advantage over other cars in the market place that still use torsion beam and struts. | ||
| Xl1200r |
1324 - I agree with everything you said, but... If a larger, heavier and more overhang-ridden car is still faster and handles as good (as far as street driving is concerned), then all that stuff is just techno mumbo-jumbo that doesn't correlate to a better driving experience. My Cobalt SS/SC was larger, heavier and had a "bad" torsion beam rear axle. It was faster and handled at least as good as a Cooper S. I appreciate the physics behind small, light cars, but the Mini isn't making the best of it. And I LIKE small cars. | ||
| 1324 |
For the record, I agree with you on the bang-for-the-$ factor. The Mini just doesn't have it, which is why I've never seriously considered owning one. I agree that bigger/heavier cars can be just as effective - case in point is an Evo or STi (moreso actually), but there is no denying the 'feel' that you get out of the cars like the Mini. Performance is relatively easy to understand and engineer. FEEL by comparison, is another matter altogether. But seriously...I've owned enough torsion beam rear axle cars to know they have severe limitations. They can be good at auto-x, drag racing, and commuting, but throw in some road imperfections mid-corner, and watch the car wallow out of control. The design is limited, plain and simple. | ||
| Xl1200r |
The thing that drives me crazy is if you found a good deal on a used Mini S it would be a great car for the money, but they seem to hold their value too well for their own good. Which how much used ones go for, you may as well buy new a lot of times. Yes, torsion beam rears can get a little hoppy, but that's part of the charm  Only a step above a live axle in a RWD car. My Mazdaspeed3 had IRS - I liked it, it had a better ride and was more stable in turns when hitting bumps and such. But it woudln't be a deciding factor for me. If you're going fast enough in a solid rear car around a bend to hit a bump and go flying off the road, you're going too fast for public roads, anyways. On a smooth racetrack, where cornering grip counts the most, the live rears dons't suffer a measurable disadvantage. For the record, I wish we had more cars like the Mini - I'm excited the Fiat 500 is coming. I like alot of the European small cars, but keep in mind that many of them are similar in size to the compacts we have here. | ||
| Svh |
Cobalt Coupe: 180.5" length Fiat 500: 139.6" length Mini Coupe: 146.6" length Thats over 3 ft shorter. Far from similar size. | ||
| 1324 |
I think we agree. However, I'd be lying if I said mid corner bumps never screwed with me on the street. I have my moments of weakness, and excess speed has commonly been the side effect. I'd like to drive the new 500. I drove the new Fiesta, and while I wasn't privy to a sprited rip, I liked what it was. | ||
| Xl1200r |
Svh - my bad, I was working off of the WRX example that Fahren gave. But still, I'd ask... what does the 3 feet reduction in size get you, besides less interior space? | ||
| Bads1 |
Cooper is just two damned pricey for what you get. 40 Grand to get into a new Works Cooper and you get 208 HP.Myself I'd go looking at other cars. | ||
| Svh |
Chevy Cobalt SS Curb weight: 2815lbs Fiat 500 Curb weight: 2350lbs Mini S Curb weight: 2678lbs Thats what you get. Near 500lb weight loss. Mini weighs too much probably due to the BMW influence. Probably 150lbs of sound deadening. There are definitely cheaper performance vehicles than the Mini S as many have stated. It all really comes down to what you want out of the car. Turbo or SC 500 would be fun I bet. | ||
| Bads1 |
Just to get the car to get more HP it wouldn't be cheap in comparison to a Colbalt or a WRX | ||
| Xl1200r |
500lbs weight loss = not faster and not better handling (in this case). So again, what does it get you? All of these little European "sporty" cars also have little European engines, where people are proud to make 200hp. Yeah, that's more than enough to make the car fun, but even more can be had if you let go of the 'size of the box' limitation. Bads1 is right - make a 500 go as fast as a typical pocket rocket and the price jumps dramatically. Look at the Works model he mentioned - TONS of cash just to get the horsepower to be barely competitive in the segment. (Message edited by xl1200r on March 31, 2011) | ||
| Bads1 |
For instance,my 09 WRX. Changed the exhaust,down pipe,inlet pipe,and a Cobb Access port with a map. The car should be putting down lil over 300 WHP. Mine hasn't been on the Dyno but I know a few that are running the same in variations of exhaust and they are about 304 WHP. 2 grand will get ya there. | ||
| 1324 |
I still believe the WRX is one of the best values out there. Four doors, all wheel drive, plenty of power/torque, and a dead sexy exhaust note. My STi was great. It could outpace cars at double it's cost. However, the WRX was a better street car, was easier on tires, brakes, gas, and insurance. Truly a fantastic car... | ||
| Bads1 |
Not anymore 1324. A 09 to present WRX just in base is just as fast as the STI. Insurance the same for me anyways. And gas mileage...... well they ain't the greatest. Thats a trade off I guess.lol (Message edited by bads1 on March 31, 2011) | ||
| Badlionsfan |
Thanks for the info and banter, brings me to a few conclusions. 1. Good, reliable cars. 2. Quirky, love or hate styling. 3. They're a hoot to drive. 4. Not the most value on the road, but do hold their value well. I like the way you can pick thru each of the options available and order just what you want and not stuck to upgrade packages. You guys really wanting me to test drive one and see if it gives me the grin factor. The polarizing effect these cars have remind me of Buells. | ||
| Glitch |
If you do, the turbo S has the most grin factor. Mike's wife just bought one last week, defiantly the better mini. | ||
| Xl1200r |
Bads, I think you really nailed it. Like I said, I don't fault anyone for wanting one, they aren't bad cars at all and they are a lot of fun to drive. If the higher price of admission and smaller space inside aren't hold ups for you and you really want one, then go for it. If you're just shopping the segment, then do shop around. Don't get me wrong, there are two kinds of test drives, and I've done plenty of both: 1) Drive a bunch of cars to see which you like best 2) Drive the car you already decided to want to make sure you still want it, lol They are like Buells - either you want one or you don't, and if you do you're willing to put up with any shortfalls (price, size, whatever). Good luck! | ||
| Bads1 |
Well my basis on my opinion is that my Sister Inlaw ordered a Cooper Clubman. Yeah the bigger one. She ordered it with every option you could get. She waited a two months if memory serves to get it. I drove it once or twice. She sold it in 09. Less the a year after buying it. It was ok. Turbo you just gotta have or they are dog's. It handled ok but not good enough for the 30 grand plus spent. | ||
| Badlionsfan |
Appearance wise, I don't like the longer ones. If I do it, it'll be the Cooper S, six speed. I'm under six feet tall, drive by myself 90% of the time, so I think the interior space should be ok, but I might sit in it and hate it, we'll see. The only thing I'm sold on so far is the look of the car inside and out, everything else is a question mark. | ||
| Crackhead |
Xl1200r, At the end of the day your stuck with a Chevy. Out of the 3 that rental companies have tried to rent me. ALL 3 have had to be returned early because of the various "disposable" Chevy problems. One of them didn't even make it our the parking lot. After 20k it is time to recycle them. | ||
| Crackhead |
I am holding out for the 1.6 ecoboost Fiesta. | ||
| Bads1 |
I'm not much for domestic's at all. | ||
| Glitch |
The dash takes some getting used to.  The speedo especially. | ||
| Badlionsfan |
Eh, once you learn what rpm in what gear = what speed, ya don't even need the speedo.  | ||
| Bads1 |
You ain't kidding Dave. You should see that speedo with navigation in it also.lol | ||
| Bads1 |
Kinda reminds me of a Rapper with a big clock and gold chain around his neck.lol |
