| Author | Message | ||
     Doerman |
Jobs are flowing overseas specifically because of our corporate tax system. That is one reason. The president recently visited Brazil. I hope he learned how the so called socialistic government in Brazil manages to create the local conditions for growth. Specifically: - less regulation in the energy business - corp tax capped at 20% - reinvestment incentives - incentives for establishing business in remote areas - a much healthier union/business relationship Meanwhile back to the US. There are other reasons jobs are being outsourced. In the case of the Boeing 787, many of the subsystems are made elsewhere. Boeing's reason for that is thinking they will be seen as an international company and that the plane will sell better outside the US. I think that's part of GE's thinking as well. This works in reverse as well. Siemens Software division (SPLM)has a strong contingent of developers and support organizations in the US for the same reason. EU and Asian automakers have strong presence here as well. Globalization is not necessarily all negative. (Message edited by doerman on March 26, 2011) | ||
| Kenm123t |
Those who cant discuss with facts and basic enconomic laws. Snipe about how bad the Venue is. Why are you unable to provide a point other than My union will determine what you will pay me. I worked union when I was young and stupid I learned and made a better life for my self and family. If you want it make it do it. lets see some of those I and my Union will force you tough guy guts start you own company. Compete with the guy you think is keeping you down and not paying you enough. See how the world works. In short Man Up if your work is worth what you think it is and what the market will bear your successful. If not your out of business if you dont have the guts to better your life HTFU No body will do it for you Unions are done personal performance counts! Stop whining about corporations if you want some of those profits Risk some capital I dont think you would whine if those profits were in your account. Oh Yeah check the funds of the fitters unions they own GE stock in way you do to! Dumb enough to hate his own pension plan Hilarious! | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Those who refuse to engage in debate do so because the debate requires you to defend your position with facts. It's so much easier to provide drive by commentary with no substance. If your position can be defended, do so. I can be persuaded with compelling arguments. If the defense of my position is incorrect, break my argument. It can't be that hard if I am so wrong in my thinking. It's just easier to come buy every few days and take a shit in a thread than it is to stay and debate calmly and rationally. I don't agree with Aussie's position, but I respect that he is willing to engage in debate. Honest debate. If you can't participate like an adult in political threads, show some self control and stay out. Political threads are not going away and are not leaving Badweb anytime soon. If you don't like that they are part of Badweb, feel free to leave at any time. Some of you have done so already. Repeatedly. | ||
| Court |
Strange day ....... Just had lunch with my wife, Geoff May's Mother and wife and am now at the Columbia Business School discussing ....... You guessed it ...motorcycles and guitars with an economics Professor. Maybe it is a zero sum world.. Fabulous day!!! | ||
| Aesquire |
Crusty, when confronted with facts, seems to withdraw. ( just my observation. ) You want him to shut up? Ask him a question. One he can't answer with other than swear words. Possibly because he either has never thought of the subject, or has only prerecorded propaganda on tap. Honestly I don't know. I can intellectually consider the mindset, but am unable to grasp it emotionally. Here's one I never get a response to. ( especially the conspiracy mavens with "Bush lied, people died" or "Obama was born in Kenya" or "Bush did 9/11 so he could impose the Patriot act and end Freedom" ...... None of which happened, but, hey, gotta be vigilant! ) How would Crusty handle the problem of Iran? ( oh, and I'm not too sure Wisconsin's politicians got anything right. Time will tell. ) Aussie, would you like a simple explanation how a company does not actually pay taxes? I'll keep it short and minimum bs, promise. I agree with Sifo on VAT taxes. Seem like a rip off, and I promise they would never end income taxes and substitute anything else. Why? because thousands of Government Employees do Income tax. The Income tax is NOT the only tax people pay. Poor people are hit with the other taxes WORSE than rich people, for 3 simple reasons. 1. Us poor folk can't afford to pay for laws that favor us. ( cynical, but true ) Warren Buffet can hire teams of guys and bribe politicians with millions of dollars. ( they don't like to call it bribes, but what else are massive "campaign contributions"? ) 2. because us poor folk can't afford to shift our money around, we don't get the breaks for investment. Just the facts. The margin is pretty thin to keep afloat for most of us, and the percentage we can shield from taxes is small. 3. Most taxes paid by us poor folk are hidden, or mandatory. Built into the price of stuff we buy, and we don't have the buying power to get around that. If I bought Diesel by the truckload, I'd get a break on the taxes at the pump. I just can't afford to. | ||
| Aesquire |
Also, picking on Teachers ( or well paid ferry drivers ) is Bogus. That is the tactics of the bad guys. Don't do it, unless you are evil. Class envy is too easy, and wrong. Period. Go ahead and pick on the Union Organizers. Many of them are crooks. ( not the members, the guys who run things. ) Yeah, the local Police do lots of OT when they get toward retirement age. They even pay younger cops to work their shifts to get the payoff later. The young guy makes out, he's paid more than normal, the older guys makes out, he gets a much bigger pension, and the taxpayer picks up the tab. Doesn't work that way for me, so I admit to a little envy. I'm paying taxes, too, so that's a bit annoying. Guys who really cheat? penalize them as permitted. If you are being paid to do a job, and you instead go to a bar, that's a rip off. Just lay off the class envy crap. it's not becoming. | ||
| Aesquire |
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/hal f-a-million-activists-join-anticuts-march-2253791. html | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
So what do the protesters hope to accomplish? | ||
| Aesquire |
Why, to force the government through protest and positive thought to do the impossible and afford to give everyone everything. You, know, like we expect ours to. | ||
| Aussie2126 |
It's not about giving tax breaks to corporations as much as it is attracting business and manufacturing to that state. TN does it all the time. In return, we have the new Nissan Headquarters and a bright shiny new VW plant in Chattanooga. I think I get now. If me and Gov. Walker go to Mr. Nissan with our hat in our hand and beg bribe and whine to him to please, please bring your business to WI, and then make sure we outbid TN and all the other states, then I will be a true American cowboy in the grand mold of Ronald Reagan, George Bush, and John Wayne. Redistribution of wealth in this manner shows that we are true and glorious constitutionalists and we are in keeping with the ideals of our founding fathers. I always did want to be a cowboy!! On the other hand, if I think that making sure that a small child has access to food and heating assistance (even with the questionable choices her parents may have made). or that a teacher has access to health care, or WORSE YET yet that every member of the RICHEST country in the world has reasonable access to health care and won,t lose their house after working all their life just because they get cancer... Well then..... I will be a panty waisted liberal progressive socialist scum? Friend of the looters and moochers. Sorry... but I think that I see my panties showing. | ||
| Sifo |
Also, picking on Teachers ( or well paid ferry drivers ) is Bogus. That is the tactics of the bad guys. Don't do it, unless you are evil. Class envy is too easy, and wrong. Period. I think you are a little bit right and a little bit wrong. In my view union power has been abused for a long time giving them way too much power. Public sector unions especially. It's not about picking on teachers. It's about picking a place to start. Far better IMO than wide spread union busting of all public sector unions. Police as an example, I don't think has nearly the same amount of union corruption as the teachers. When the unions band together as they are currently in WI I start to favor wide spread union busting though. | ||
| Sifo |
If me and Gov. Walker go to Mr. Nissan with our hat in our hand and beg bribe and whine to him to please, please bring your business to WI, and then make sure we outbid TN and all the other states, then I will be a true American cowboy in the grand mold of Ronald Reagan, George Bush, and John Wayne. Redistribution of wealth in this manner shows that we are true and glorious constitutionalists and we are in keeping with the ideals of our founding fathers. Aussie, How do you see redistribution of wealth happening when wealth isn't forcibly taken away? Redistribution of wealth by the government can ONLY happen when the government first takes the wealth away from someone. | ||
| Sifo |
Why, to force the government through protest and positive thought to do the impossible and afford to give everyone everything. You, know, like we expect ours to. When you resort to death threats, such as has happened in WI, to force political change, aren't you by definition engaging in terrorism? As an organized group shouldn't such unions be labeled as terrorist groups? | ||
| Court |
Union have long used threats of violence to compel compliance with ridiculous demands. Most the large unions, and this is pretty well passed now, had fairly well organized groups of thugs who carried out their business. The one in my own union even had a name. For an interesting account read . . "Corruption and Racketeering in the New York City Construction Unions" - The interim Report by The New York State Organized Crime Task Force. I **think** I remember a time it didn't require an organized crime task force to monitor teachers. The examples cited above are all fairly weak. Where has a teacher ever been denied health care? I just watched the head of the teachers union quit in NYC and demand her back pay of $184,000 of accumulated "sick days". I'm not sure I understand how you get paid for working a day and then get paid for the same day again because you were not sick . . . but that's my "Reagan" showing. The city did reduce the number of teachers, they were dealing with a finite pool of funds, by 5 as a result of paying it out. Their pants showed too. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I think I get now. If me and Gov. Walker go to Mr. Nissan with our hat in our hand and beg bribe and whine to him to please, please bring your business to WI, and then make sure we outbid TN and all the other states, then I will be a true American cowboy in the grand mold of Ronald Reagan, George Bush, and John Wayne. Redistribution of wealth in this manner shows that we are true and glorious constitutionalists and we are in keeping with the ideals of our founding fathers. I always did want to be a cowboy!! On the other hand, if I think that making sure that a small child has access to food and heating assistance (even with the questionable choices her parents may have made). or that a teacher has access to health care, or WORSE YET yet that every member of the RICHEST country in the world has reasonable access to health care and won,t lose their house after working all their life just because they get cancer... Well then..... I will be a panty waisted liberal progressive socialist scum? Friend of the looters and moochers. Sorry... but I think that I see my panties showing. It's not about "begging" business to come to (or stay in) your state. It's about creating a business competitive environment. Do you know where the headquarters for Nissan was before it moved to TN? California The main reason Nissan moved from California is that the state's corporate and personal tax system had become so business prohibitive and costly that they could no longer do business there and have their corporate profits taxed in that state. Did you know that Detroit was once one of the shining cities of the US. It was on par with Chicago, New York, Los Angeles, and Pittsburgh for business and industrial prowess. Why is it no longer? Progressive programs in Michigan drove up the costs of doing business in that state with corporate and personal taxes, property taxes, sales taxes, and fees that companies fled the state in herds. The same is happening in Illinois, Wisconsin, California, New York, and New Jersey. Do you know where those companies are moving to? States that are actively creating pro-business environments: Texas, Tennessee, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, South Carolina, Florida. Many have low or no personal income taxes as well as low or no business taxes. If Wisconsin seeks to provide limited duration tax incentives to incentivize a company to relocate to Wisconsin, how does that harm the tax revenues of that state? The state wasn't receiving tax revenues before it came to the state, so if it gives breaks for a period of time, the state isn't losing anything. What it's gaining is employment. Wages are received creating opportunities for income tax revenues. Wages are spent on goods and services creating opportunities for sales tax revenues. Homes are bought or built creating opportunities for property tax revenues. Gas is purchased providing opportunities for gas tax revenues. Trucks traverse the roads taking goods from the factory to places without and outside the state providing road tax revenues. If that business chooses another state, Wisconsin loses all those revenue opportunities. The state to state market is competitive. Each business has the opportunity to determine in which state it will operate. Companies choose that state which provides the greatest opportunity for net after-tax profit. The south has become a significant recipient of business opportunities directly due to the tax policies of northern states. The nation to nation market is also very competitive. Just as states are seeking to attract business to that state, countries do exactly the same thing. Relocate your plant to our country and we'll provide you with "XXX". Our corporate tax system plays the largest part in driving US jobs over seas. Look at GE's strategy to see it in action. GE has progressively moved more of its operations overseas because those overseas operations allow less of the net income to be taxable in the US. The tax rates in other countries is significantly less. They are working to attract that business there. Lowering corporate tax rates would have two effects: First, it would lower the price of goods giving wages more buying power, Second, it would reduce the incentive to off shore jobs in an effort to escape the corporate tax system. In addition, it would alter the manner in which corporations evaluate expenditures. If you are not making expenditures based first on what the net tax benefit is but rather what drives the long term benefit of the company and the investors, the corporation is able to strategically plan more efficiently. I would prefer the corporate tax rate be dropped to say 5% maximum rate. Let's attract business from India, China, the UK, Belgium, Japan, Korea, Spain, Germany, etc. to the US. Let's make the US corporate market the most business friendly in the world. You want to have workers making $100/hour, make the job market so rich that companies are literally fighting one another for workers. THAT'S how you raise the standard of living not by confiscating wealth from business but making them compete for that labor. US workers are THE most productive in the world. PERIOD! Other countries wish that their workers produced as much products per hour with as high a quality as US workers do. THAT is our real true strength. Now as far as your question regarding whether widows and orphans should have access to healthcare or working wages or housing or whatever, you and I agree completely on this point. The difference is that you and I disagree completely on the manner in which these benefits are secured. You feel (and if I am reading you wrong please don't let me put words on your mouth) that the best arbiter of creating these opportunities is the Federal Government. That these people would be unable to receive them unless the Federal Government secures them for the people in question. I can't disagree more. The best way for people to receive them is competitively in the open market. When people are given the freedom to earn these benefits and purchase them in the open market, they are able to make better choices than when these benefits are provided through Government with central planning. We are seeing this played out with Obamacare. There is currently a contraction of the healthcare market. What was billed as lower costs and more choices has resulted in 40%+ rate increases and providers exiting the market leaving the benefits to be provided by fewer and fewer carriers. Ultimately, all healthcare benefits will be provide by 3-4 large national carriers. This is why the large providers were behind Obamacare. This law is cleaning out the competitive underbrush leaving the large carriers as the only ones in the market. I have the framers of the Constitution on my side. Read the Federalist Papers. See what they were most concerned about. A Federal Government that can provide you with stuff has the power to take your freedoms. The best system provides the individual maximum freedoms. The system we have created since Wilson trades maximum freedoms for larger government, greater inefficiencies, and far less freedoms. The Framers understood that the environment that created the greatest opportunity for personal self actualization was that environment most free from Government. They sought a limited central government with 13 (or 50) small decentralized government as incubators and proving grounds of good and bad ideas. If a state had a good idea, it became prosperous and other states could emulate that state. If a state had really bad ideas, it became less competitive, and other states could avoid that errant policy. We have destroyed that system are replaced it with a form of government the framers sought to avoid. | ||
| Cowboy |
Thanks F T B For a Wonderful post,If some of the more dense people dont get it now then they never will. I guess we will just have to support them for the rest of thier lives. | ||
| Two_seasons |
Honest debate? It would be if the main liberal in this thread would actually answer those questions posed to him. When you lay it all out for him and ask him questions, he chooses to ignore and restate his "facts". For whatever reason, there is more energy expended by the left re: class warfare and a "fair" tax code, then anything else. When they can't debate you and back up their "facts" they either change the subject or run without giving a cogent rebuttal. It really is tiring to see it or hear it. Possibly a lot of what has been happening this year is related to the following: 1.) Public schools, whether elem/high/univ are not teaching anything (history, math, english, literature) anymore. What they are teaching is social change. Those of us paying for that via our taxes are disgusted want to get back to the basics. And a better bang for our buck. You and I know why teachers have unions. 2.) BHO was elected and there is little change being seen by their socialist brethren, so those that elected BHO are hoping they can intercede and change it themselves...AMP IT UP. 3.) All of us, this time of year, wish we had a fairer tax system. GE hasn't manufactured a toaster since 1984. GE is investing here in America. More sub-assemblies are returning here for manufacturing. At least those products that are considered high margin are. Most of us agree, when it isn't fair (subject totally exposed) it isn't right. Most of us agree, when it's wrong, we the people should be able to change it, via our representative gov't. So we apply the pressure via: The left wants more gov't and regs, and will riot when they can't keep, into perpetuity, what they bargained for. The right wants to downsize gov't and wants more constitutionally applied oversight (less gov't in general). Both sides whine when the gov't intervenes. The left because they are getting less and the right because they are getting more---OF GOV'T!!!!! Gov't, by it's largess, is the problem. While we the people have gone and automated our lives, the gov't continue to slog along and build more brick and mortar, most of it unconstitutional. Along the way, we the people are getting lazy. We expect someone else will cover our poor choices and protect our perceived rights. ONLY YOU really control both. With money, whether via unions or wealth, we buy influence. Most of us in the unions are disgusted with how that influence (union dues) is used. And most of us that are wealthy are disgusted with how little influence we can buy. Both are expecting to get things that they are not morally entitled to, in most cases. I always tell people "just because we do it that way doesn't mean it's right" Legislation is nothing more than control and often times doesn't mean it's morally right. In the end, it's all about control. Those of you on the left see gov't as an equalizer, while continuing to increase your lot in life via the same failed examples that world history has provided us. I know, I know, this time you'll get it right, unlike your heroes Lenin, Mao, and Che! In the end, you'll control it all and decide who among us is worthy to be hitched to your wagon. Mediterranean villas, caviar, cigars. One big party for those who are worthy! Those on the right see bloated gov't, massive abuse of the Constitution, and regulation and control that would rival even the most socialist/marxist of countries. We want a return to a gov't we remember from our youth, where there were winners and losers (even dodgeball is banned now!) and consequences when people make bad decisions, whether it be via a board that bankrupted the corporation or an individual that bought their new home via gov't programs that make the lender see unemployment and welfare checks as income. We see the gov't as not a means to an end, but the end of our nation if it continues as it has for the last 80 years, with an accelerant since 1965. The current massive entitlements our elected leaders have amassed for us today, extending out for those that are currently in or will be in some entitlement program as they are currently written---is $65 trillion. That is about $210,000 for every man, woman, and child in America today. Remember, as it is currently today. A great number of our immigrants, whether legal or not, don't currently have the motivation or will to change what is currently perceived as freedom from the poor class. They are the next wave of slaves to this perceived freedom. And it may very well be that, compared to where they immigrated from, see so much freedom here. But unless we the people, all of us, remove the cradle to grave control our gov't is desperately vying control for, we will continue to decline as a nation. So, the ball is in our court, we will either continue to cede power from the states, or we will return to our Constitutional roots and States rights as enumerated in the terms of that document! This can solve our current mess. And it will restore freedoms to all citizens not seen for a very long time. We are a nation of laws. Unfortunately today, those laws are being used against us and our 50 states. Our God given rights are on the line. Haven't you noticed that since we neither have the 10 Commandments on the public school or courtroom walls, and make the pledge of allegiance optional, we have been a nation in decline. When we ignore basic freedoms from our creator and teach everything but...well, you see the effect. Seems that those old coots in their graves and those dusty old documents make sense after all! | ||
| Rocketsprink |
"Our God given rights are on the line. Haven't you noticed that since we neither have the 10 Commandments on the public school or courtroom walls, and make the pledge of allegiance optional, we have been a nation in decline. When we ignore basic freedoms from our creator and teach everything but...well, you see the effect. Seems that those old coots in their graves and those dusty old documents make sense after all!" Who the hell are you to decide who the "Creator" is? that last paragraph is such a load of shit, it's laughable. you have NO right to cram your religious beliefs down anyone's throat. yeah. the Country has taken a big shit only since "God" has been removed from the court and class rooms. Open your eyes. yeah. God would love all the cuts to help the needed. Or in the Republicans terms, "entitlement" people. Man you people make me sick. | ||
| Sifo |
Rocco, I assume that the founders of our country make you equally sick with this sort of talk... "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." | ||
| Aussie2126 |
Rocketsprink +2 It always comes back to that doesn't it - if they can't cram their religion down our throats then they are just not happy!! Jeremy: I don't understand why, when I want to ensure health care for children (damn 6year old - just go get a job and buy you own health care)..... That is redistribution of wealth and is a socialist plot!!! When Tennessee whores up the state bidding and ends up getting the plants by "racing to the bottom" that is just what Thomas Jefferson had in mind. As long as you take my tax dollars to insure that Mr. Nissan yacht is of a suitable size - then it's not redistribution, it's capitalism as it was meant to be. I really have no problem with Mr. Nissan's yacht - I just still see it as redistribution. | ||
| Sifo |
Ausie & Rocco, When God given rights are talked about, they are the same rights that are guaranteed by the Constitution. I don't see anyone cramming religion down anyone's throat here. The point is about the rights, not where they originate from. It just happens that our founders did believe that they were given by God. You don't want God involved? I'm OK with that. What about the rights guaranteed by the Constitution though. Don't exit the conversation by sidestepping into another topic. Two_seasons nailed it with "Honest debate? It would be if the main liberal in this thread would actually answer those questions posed to him.". | ||
| Dalton_gang |
God GIVES us our rights. Politicians and Unions take control over our lives and make us PAY for our rights. So who's cramming what down our throats? | ||
| Sifo |
So what oil should I be using in my crankcase? It's still pretty darned cold in the AM. It going to get into some nice warm weather later on with this same oil though. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
don't understand why, when I want to ensure health care for children (damn 6year old - just go get a job and buy you own health care)..... That is redistribution of wealth and is a socialist plot!!! When Tennessee whores up the state bidding and ends up getting the plants by "racing to the bottom" that is just what Thomas Jefferson had in mind. As long as you take my tax dollars to insure that Mr. Nissan yacht is of a suitable size - then it's not redistribution, it's capitalism as it was meant to be. I really have no problem with Mr. Nissan's yacht - I just still see it as redistribution. It's a "socialist plot" when the need of one creates an obligation for another. The needs of person A do not supersede the rights of B. When property is taken from person B in order to provide for the needs of person A under threat of force, person B is a slave to person A. Compound that when person A has no requirements placed upon them to receive benefits from person B. TN hasn't "raced to the bottom". We have received a new plan with all the jobs and income that come with it. We didn't pay them to come we simply agreed that we wouldn't charge VW taxes for a set period of time. We have a net positive. | ||
| Aussie2126 |
Does that mean me? I thought they were rhetorical. What are the questions again? I'll see if I can enlighten you. | ||
| Sifo |
Should I use nitrogen in my tires? | ||
| Two_seasons |
Aussie, you're not a good debater as someone said earlier. When it doesn't go your way, you resort to name calling. You refuse to read and comprehend anybody else's points, as you only have your xxxxxx manifesto(s) in front of you for retort. And you have the audacity to say "are you even reading my posts" to another poster. Problem is, you're the one who isn't reading, or responding to specifics, for that matter! Rocket, you'll either meet God as your Savior or your Judge. That's the beauty of free will. Just the thought of it makes your head spin, doesn't it? The USA is still the most generous nation on this earth. We help those in need within and outside our borders. However, those of us that do indeed give voluntarily, bristle when we are told that it will be taken from us and given to whomever our gov't wants to give it to. I've never had problems with protests, but I do when they interrupt legislative process or turn violent. Look at Seattle or Toronto in the past, look at London last night. Unmask yourselves you cowards! I've got to know a new set of friends on BWB and feel as though you'd have my back, should it come to that. Thank you. | ||
| Sifo |
Aussie, Let's try this. Earlier you suggested cutting defense spending. I could agree on some areas of that. How about rather than keeping a standing army, we go back to a well armed militia as described in the Constitution. Of course that would mean letting citizens be armed with state of the art weapons. Auto-fire, armor piercing bullets, grenades, grenade launchers, ground to air missiles - that sort of thing. Still want to defund the military? | ||
| Blake |
>>> I don't understand why, when I want to ensure health care for children (damn 6year old - just go get a job and buy you own health care)..... That is redistribution of wealth and is a socialist plot!!! Pretty sure children have been covered for a long, long time. I recall as a young child taking seeing the SCHIP forms distributed to parents in case they didn't have medical insurance for the kiddos. So try again, absent the straw man. Cancer? You want everyone to be covered for treatment of cancer? Even the smokers? Really? Not too long ago, people got cancer and if it was inoperable or metastasized, they just died. Then some bright enterprising folks invented some incredible detection and treatment regimes. But they are complicated and rightly very expensive. So everyone is entitled to it, just because it exists? Since when? And why? Because you have a soft heart? Okay, you pay for those whom you wish to help, and the rest of us will do so as well, deal? Or is it that you demand to be able to force at the point of a gun everyone else to hand over their property towards what you decide is best? Yep, that's it. Moochers and looters. I'd rather die than steal from others in order to live a little longer. (Message edited by blake on March 27, 2011) | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
As a secular citizen of the United States, I have absolutely NO obligation to "society". NONE. |
