| Author | Message | ||
     Sifo |
Aussie, there are some complicated things involved that can be pointed to fairly easily. Much of it revolves around the Laffer curve. Keynesians will deny it, but if you take the extremes of it, it is undeniable. We live somewhere between the extremes and that is three data points of the curve that proves it works. You seem to argue for higher corporate taxes. Last I heard the US had the second highest corporate taxes in the industrialized world. The problem is that corporations are more able to respond as predicted by Laffer than individuals. They can simply move operations to a more tax friendly country. Don't believe me? Take a look at GE's latest earnings where they paid zero taxes. They moved operations that had tax burdens, and kept operations that had tax incentives. The big problem here is that you lose jobs doing this. Now you are missing out on the corporate taxes AND you are missing out on personal income taxes. These people wind up on unemployment/welfare and you have a triple hit on the economy. The Laffer curve is still in effect with individuals, it's just not as easy for many individuals to move operations out of the country. Unfortunately those who are most able to do so happen to be the same ones who are supporting the bulk of the tax revenue. When they take their ball to go play in a different court, those left in the original court have no ball to play with. Unfortunately it is not so easy to point to a graph and say here's where policy X was put into place and look at the result that year. Economic policies are forces that generally react slowly (especially on the up side) and there's always a lot of other factors to look at that creates noise in the data. There are clear examples of tax cuts working (or the converse not working). Read up on Japans "lost decade" where they went down the road we are on trying to spend your way out of a recession. Prior to their lost decade they were THE economic force in Asia. Now they are just another player losing business to China, Korea, Taiwan, Viet Nam, etc. There's many other examples to look at through history too. A VAT tax is an interesting idea, but I don't think it would be implemented in a rational way in the US. We have a nasty tendency to simply add the new tax in with all the others and end up with a higher tax burden that makes all of the above problems just that much worse. It also isn't by itself a progressive tax, so if you think low income folks are getting up the tail now... In the end I don't see where a VAT, Flat tax, Fair tax, or any other flavor of that necessarily fixes anything that can't be fixed in the current system. You now seem to want to cut defense spending. I would be open to that within reason. Keep in mind that national defense is one of the few things that the government is actually mandated to do by the Constitution. It's also difficult to argue for defense cuts as you enter into yet another "Kinetic Military Action" with no exit plan.  I do think it's fair to look at a realignment of public worker's salaries. My pay has certainly been realigned. I have a hard time with he idea of a special class of citizen that gets special treatment from the government. That's what the Baath party was under Saddam. Plenty of other ugly examples from history too. One last point I would like to make. Comparing taxes/GDP in country X to taxes/GDP in country Y is an apples to oranges comparison unless you also compare the services provided by the government. There is no doubt that the more socialistic a government becomes the more taxes they must collect to pay for all of the social policies. Again though, history is littered with examples of horrible examples of where that eventually leads. | ||
| Sifo |
We have ten aircraft carriers. How many does Switzerland have??? Is Switzerland of any particular strategic benefit to anybody? | ||
| Doerman |
Is the assumption here that it is a good thing to have such high percentage of the GDP circulate through a public cash register? I deeply question that assumption. As a matter of fact, a government providing goods and services w/o the responsibility of showing a P/L - or in a government scenario benefit/cost ratio to stakeholders (us) is a bad thing. I selected to leave Norway as a young lad because the taxation yoke is so heavy and the services poor. Let me keep my money and I will decide how to spend my resources rather than having that defined for me. | ||
| Sifo |
I selected to leave Norway as a young lad because the taxation yoke is so heavy and the services poor. Exactly and congratulations! It's the Laffer curve in action. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
OK, so we have the most favorable tax rate in years BUT we are running deficits that are financed by our enemies. We don't have a revenue problem. We have a spending and scope of government problem. Sooo... We can't get rid of the subsidies to my friends in the oil industry because it will affect the prices for the fuel and other things that I buy. It will affect my job. It may even affect my motorcycle ride time. I'm not saying the subsidies are good or bad. I'm just saying that ending the subsidies will have a net negative impact on the discretionary income of each American. Now if you'd like to talk about ending subsidies, let's talk about General Electric. Are you aware, as a result of buddying up with the Obama Administration, that GE paid ZERO federal taxes for the 2009 tax year and in fact received a $1.1B tax credit in spite of the $10.8B net profit? General Electric is also one of the largest if not the largest exporter of jobs of any of the Fortune 500 companies. Why would pro-union folks be happy that Immelt is advising Obama on job creation? | ||
| Aussie2126 |
I started on this thread with the warning that we should not let any hatred or bias towards unions blind us to what is really happening here... I would restate that at this point as "don't let your hatred of Barack Obama blind you to what is really happening." Google GE taxes 2006 and you will find... <<<<Between 2006 and 2010, GE earned $26.3 billion in profits and paid no U.S. taxes, yet received $4.2 billion in tax refunds. Congressional Republicans are about to cut the Tsunami Warning System from the National Weather Service budget. But if General Electric paid their fair share of taxes, we could reverse this and billions in additional budget cuts. GE — best known for its light bulbs, refrigerators — and lately, its nuclear reactors — is one of the country's biggest tax dodgers. Recent filings show that in 2010, General Electric reported global profits of $14.2 billion, claiming $5.1 billion from U.S. operations. How much did it pay in U.S. corporate taxes? Zero. Actually, less than zero. We taxpayers paid G.E. $3.2 billion. As David Kocieniewski reports in The New York Times, GE "has been cutting the percentage of its American profits paid to the Internal Revenue Service for years, resulting in a far lower rate than most multinational companies." According to Citizens for Tax Justice, between 2006 and 2010, General Electric reported $26.3 billion in pretax profits to its shareholders but paid no U.S. taxes. In fact, they received $4.2 billion in refunds from Uncle Sam for an effective tax rate of negative 15.8 percent over these five years. General Electric accomplishes this feat by using is political muscle in Congress and lobbying for special tax treatment and corporate welfare. It also aggressively moves is profits to offshore tax havens including Bermuda, Singapore, and Luxembourg. While several GE divisions have struggled over the last decade, its accountants think of themselves as a profit center. The company's 975-member tax division includes many former Treasury and IRS officials who never a met a loophole they didn't love. Why do we tolerate the behavior of companies like General Electric? These Benedict Arnold corporations reap all the benefits of doing business in the U.S. — yet shirk their responsibilities for paying. The next time they have a fire at one of their plants, they should call the Fire Department in Bermuda. GE will only pay its fair share when enough citizens wake up and demand that our politicians crack down on tax dodgers. No politician should be allowed to propose a budget cut or moan about austerity until they crack down on the scofflaws such as General Electric. Chuck Collins is a senior scholar at the Institute for Policy Studies where he coordinates the Program on Inequality and the Common Good (www.inequality.org). See his recent column, Corporate Tax Dodgers, Pay Up –and his Talking Points on Corporate Tax Dodging.>>>>>> Now if Barack was able to affect GE's tax return all the way back when he was just an Illinois senator in 2006 - I am IMPRESSED!!! Of course if we charge any taxes for GE (just like Exxon) they will probably raise the price of the next toaster that I want to buy... Maybe we should give then a pass??? I don't think so.... but if you do then we should just stop with any corporate taxes and continue to borrow from the chinese. GE should pay taxes!! You really do need to turn off the Fox news every once in a while. | ||
| Doerman |
You really do need to turn off the Fox news every once in a while. Funny you should say that. It was a topic of outrage on The Factor tonight. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
The issue isn't what Obama did or didn't do back in 2006. It's what he is doing and has done since 2009. Again, my question, as a pro-union advocate, why would you be happy that Immelt is advising Obama on job creation? Yes, they are tax dodges (like most of the Obama Administration). Why should Obama be partnering with GE? More importantly, why is there no moral outrage at the collusion between the government and corporation? GE good, Halliburton bad? Doesn't that seem a little hypocritical? | ||
| Aussie2126 |
Jeremy: There seems to be a lot of assumptions on what I think. Just to clear some of those up: The last time I paid union dues was when I worked part time in a grocery store, thirty years ago, while I was going to college. I am certainly not a "pro-union advocate". BUT, I will not let somebody distract me with false stories about how the local snow plow driver is bankrupting the country. I am NOT happy that Immelt is advising Obama on job creation - unfortunately Barack must have forgotten to call me before he did that. Most of the tax "dodges" are legal - I think that it would be much more productive if our representatives (just for the record I mean BOTH parties) federal and state, spent just a little time closing some of those instead of weeks on end trying to crush the unions, and hand even more money to the corporations. If GE moves a plant to WI now, Gov. Walker will give then two years free –no state taxes. We’ve got to keep the price of those toasters down. Any tax cheats in the Obama administration should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Do you have any names - I will drop the dime. Why no moral outrage at the collusion???? Jeremy, have you not been reading my posts??? GE very bad. Haliburton maybe slightly worse because they were taking our money with no bid contracts. Now GE may have some no bids that I am not aware of and in that case both equally bad! GE has been not paying taxes for a long time. Lots of corporations have not been paying taxes. None of this appears to be illegal but I am certainly “morally outraged” at the apparent collusion that allows it . I do not hate the rich. I do not hate corporations. I want the same deal - let me pay the same percentage on income as GE pays on profits. Unfortunately it would mean the end of this democracy. | ||
| Two_seasons |
Isn't it funny how liberals have one surprise after another!  | ||
| Sifo |
Now if Barack was able to affect GE's tax return all the way back when he was just an Illinois senator in 2006 - I am IMPRESSED!!! Interesting, I made a long post about economics and you respond by arguing that BO couldn't have affected GE's taxes back to 2006. I never even tried to make that connection. Nice try at a distraction though. How about back to economics? | ||
| Kenm123t |
NEWS FLASH FOLKS CORPS NEVER PAY TAXES! Every dollar they have comes from one source the end user or in GE case propping up failed green power technologies . Corporations just collect taxes the Government has not the guts to try and collect. Who do you think owns GE its Founder Thomas Edison YOU own GE if you have any mutual fund and or any pension plan GE is the the mix If GE pays taxes then I should be sheltered on the dividends I get since the taxes were paid at the corp level should I pay taxes twice on my investment! Just to make financialy Illiterate hot heads feel better as they are manipulated to shut down our country. Publicly traded corporations are that public If you want in the profits buy stock. In general stop believeng the OLD Evil Anarchists and Grow Up and understand your being used if you follow them. These are the folks that are never happy too stupid to create anything they are todays Vandals! PS Liberals are only Liberal on two things Sex and Drugs other than that they are the biggest control freaks on the planet! | ||
| Sifo |
NEWS FLASH FOLKS CORPS NEVER PAY TAXES! No doubt, but... When our taxes are filtered through corporations you can still provide tangible benefits to certain corporations with an uneven tax code. In that respect it's worth looking at the taxes "paid by corporations". | ||
| Blake |
>>> Unfortunately it would mean the end of this democracy. America is not a democracy. We are a constitutional republic. If we were a democracy, we would likely not be saddled with the burden of government health care or a number of other socialized entitlements. | ||
| Crusty |
I smell more bullshit in this thread than in an Idaho feed lot. I miss the old Badweb. | ||
| Blake |
You say $14B in profit just in 2010 with a total of $26B since 2006? Uhm, the Dems have controlled the house of representatives, the body that writes the tax code since 2007. The Dems appointed chairman for the Weighs and Means committee during that time, the man responsible for overseeing the tax code, was himself a blatant tax cheat. | ||
| Aussie2126 |
Blake: OK then it would mean the end of this constitutional republic - whatever you want to call it... I was thinking it is not a horrible system - hate to see it end by being handed over to the chinese. NEWS FLASH!!! I don't pay any income taxes - all of my income is provided by corporations!!! I have my income which comes from the corporation - gasp - that I work for. I also have some dividends provided by corporations. By taxing me you are only driving up the cost to the corporation that buys my labor. That means that by taxing me you are only driving up the final cost paid by you the end consumer. Yea, it really is a silly circular argument ... At least I realize from working through my argument that it really is quite silly from either direction. Now I really am not opposed to eliminating all forms of corporate taxation if you can explain to me how that works. If it means that I get taxed at 75% BUT we get free stuff.... Well then lets lay that out and take a look. GE getting a positive 15% return on their taxes (zero paid AND billions in credits) still seems excessive. I also just bought a washing machine and when I was shopping the GE model cost a hundred dollars more than the Maytag I bought. Heeey, wait a minute!!!! | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I smell more bullshit Whoever smelt it dealt it. Too bad you don't make an attempt to confront what you view as false. Instead you pursue hit and run tactics. Kinda like someone else. | ||
| Sifo |
NEWS FLASH!!! I don't pay any income taxes - all of my income is provided by corporations!!! I have my income which comes from the corporation - gasp - that I work for. I also have some dividends provided by corporations. By taxing me you are only driving up the cost to the corporation that buys my labor. That means that by taxing me you are only driving up the final cost paid by you the end consumer. Yea, it really is a silly circular argument ... At least I realize from working through my argument that it really is quite silly from either direction. I don't see where you aren't paying taxes (unless you are admitting to tax fraud). I agree that the cost of your taxes is passed through the corporation to the consumer though. | ||
| Sifo |
FB  | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I am certainly not a "pro-union advocate". In an anti-union thread, you seem to be advocating a pro-union stance. Please forgive the confusion. Most of the tax "dodges" are legal - I think that it would be much more productive if our representatives (just for the record I mean BOTH parties) federal and state, spent just a little time closing some of those instead of weeks on end trying to crush the unions, and hand even more money to the corporations. If GE moves a plant to WI now, Gov. Walker will give then two years free –no state taxes. We’ve got to keep the price of those toasters down. If WI wants to offer short term tax breaks to attract business to Wisconsin where income taxes on wages and sales taxes on product sales as well as property taxes on homes and sales taxes on goods and services purchased will all flow into the WI coffers, why is this a bad thing. It's not about giving tax breaks to corporations as much as it is attracting business and manufacturing to that state. TN does it all the time. In return, we have the new Nissan Headquarters and a bright shiny new VW plant in Chattanooga. Any tax cheats in the Obama administration should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Do you have any names - I will drop the dime. Here's a short list: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2009/03 /obama-kirk-taxe.html Haven't heard of a single prosecution. Even Charlie Rangel isn't being prosecuted. Better get to dropping that dime. Haliburton maybe slightly worse because they were taking our money with no bid contracts. Are these the same no bid contracts awarded to Halliburton during the Clinton Administration? http://http://mysite.verizon.net/vze1tvxm/thepolit icalarena/The%20Truth%20About%20Halliburton.htm Halliburton was the only company that could do the job in many cases. It was true for Bush. It was true for Clinton. GE has been not paying taxes for a long time. Lots of corporations have not been paying taxes. None of this appears to be illegal but I am certainly “morally outraged” at the apparent collusion that allows it . I do not hate the rich. I do not hate corporations. I want the same deal - let me pay the same percentage on income as GE pays on profits. Unfortunately it would mean the end of this democracy. GE is able to make this deal work because of the way they structure their cash flow. They outsource the labor force to other countries with much lower tax rates than the US where they make their money and then funnel all their expenditures and outlays in the US so that they can reduce their earnings to zero. You and I can't do this. Now I do agree that I would like to pay zero in taxes. The only way we can get close to this is to drastically cut the Federal budget. I want 75% of the budget cut. I want and end to Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid. I want and end to the NEA, the Department of Education, the Department of Energy, and literally dozens of duplicate and redundant agencies and programs. I want Article 1, Section 8. I want the Tenth Amendment. What will be the end of democracy (or Constitutional Republic) will be progressive ideals and a government that operates without limits to its powers. | ||
| Aussie2126 |
<<<<Interesting, I made a long post about economics and you respond by arguing that BO couldn't have affected GE's taxes back to 2006. I never even tried to make that connection. Nice try at a distraction though. How about back to economics? OK... Back to this Laffer curve. Since 2002 we have had tax breaks for all. Capital gains taxes at a maximum of 15%. We pay less of our GDP in total overall taxes than everybody except Turkey and Mexico. How's that working out... Jobs are still flowing overseas. I have not seen any indication that even GE is interested in bringing jobs home. Laffer curve all you want - it's not working. I know .... let's blame the poor and the unions. Looter and moochers indeed! | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
If it means that I get taxed at 75% BUT we get free stuff.... Well then lets lay that out and take a look. Where in the Constitution do you find that the Federal government has been granted the power to provide "free stuff" to you or anyone else? Even if you got "free stuff", do you not see the apparent lack of freedom that comes from being beholden to the Federal government for your "free stuff"? If they can give it to you they can take it away. The mere threat of taking away your benefits is control. Every time budget cuts are mentioned, widows and orphans will be starving and dying in the streets. | ||
| Sifo |
So here's a real world example of what I said earlier, from today's news stories... Caterpillar CEO's letter talks of leaving Illinois Illinois raises taxes, raising the cost of doing business. Cat is faced with a choice of being less competitive, or moving. If they move Illinois gets the triple whammy. Less corporate taxes, less income taxes, and more people claiming unemployment. Let's not get into if the corporation really pays taxes or not in this example. Whether you see the corporation as paying the tax, or the customers, Illinois no longer gets the taxes. This is the Laffer curve in action. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
OK... Back to this Laffer curve. Since 2002 we have had tax breaks for all. Capital gains taxes at a maximum of 15%. We pay less of our GDP in total overall taxes than everybody except Turkey and Mexico. How's that working out... Jobs are still flowing overseas. I have not seen any indication that even GE is interested in bringing jobs home. Laffer curve all you want - it's not working. I know .... let's blame the poor and the unions. Looter and moochers indeed! Since 2002, we have NOT had tax breaks for all. Corporations in the US still pay the second highest corporate tax rates in the world. Jobs are flowing overseas specifically because of our corporate tax system. Ask GE. Why would GE bring jobs home when they can outsource the labor to countries where the labor costs are lower but more importantly where the corporate tax rates are much less? We do not have a tax revenue problem. WE HAVE A SPENDING PROBLEM!!!!!!! | ||
| Sifo |
Aussie, It's more than what you are addressing. I'll just C&P to save typing.
(Message edited by SIFO on March 26, 2011) | ||
| Crusty |
Fatty, yes, I use hit and run tactics. I come to a Burll motorcycle forum to discuss motorcycles and motorcycle related topics. When I come to badweb lately, I see at least three political threads to every one even vaguely related to motorcycles (let alone Buells) I thought the Backfire Board was going to be the proper little niche for political debate and proselytizing, but I guess the political freaks couldn't drag enough other folks down into their sewer, so they moved the garbage back up to the Quick Board. It's funny how so many folks who have invested their time and money into making Buell ownership a more enjoyable and rewarding experience have been driven off by this political crap. Why don't you folks who love political argument go populate a political forum? Something like True American Nazis or Self Righteous Communists of the US? You could twist the truth to your hearts content and find like minded individuals, or similarly deluded fanatics to offer opposing views? In the meantime, my opinion still stands. there is more chicken shit in this thread than on Frank Perdue's farm. | ||
| Doerman |
When I come to If you care about the truth, I think the above is closer. XB, Thumper, 1125, OldSchool etc are sections dedicated to things Buell. In this particular thread, the discussions have been civil and informative. There's no need to label this as sewer, just because it is about economics and politics. | ||
| Rocketsprink |
Crusty +1 X infinity. I find myself driven further away from this site due to the same people constantly spewing their hatred for their fellow Americans because they have something they do not. Kinda like pointing the finger at those who think the wealthy should pay their fair share. But I know...that's Socialism. they're happier with Fascism, which is where we are headed. they don't mind that the great Republican Governor of Wisconsin decided he doesn't have to listen to the Judicial system of his own state when they put a hold on his new anti union bill, disguised as the "budget repair" bill, by saying "it's been published, therefore it is law." Only follow the Constitution when it meets their needs. If you want to talk motorcycle or Buells...better off looking for a different forum. that's what I did. But I do enjoy, from time to time, coming here and seeing how little it has changed. | ||
| Sifo |
Hey Rocket, Here's an idea for you. Want more MC discussion? Post in a MC thread, not a political thread. The only time I see you post on the QB is in political threads complaining that there's not enough MC talk.  |
