| Author | Message | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
     Aussie2126 |
Actually, if the reason that I am low on funds is that I am not taking in as much money - quit my job - I first start looking at getting a new job or even going back to my old gig. I don't burn down my house to avoid paying those heat bills. During the 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s 70s and 90s we had a much higher marginal tax rate - it worked then, there seemed to be some prosperity there. Gov. Walker thinks we sell hard assets (power plants) and then be forever tied to someone else to provide the power that we still need. And by the way, the guy that mows our lawn (going with the personel life analogy)has been charging us too much. Lets make him do it for less. I would look at getting my old gig back if I really wanted to fix the problem. Does that mean higher taxes for me? OK. Still a better option than continuing to finance tax cuts by borrowing from the chinese! Still a better option than cutting 2000 border/immigration guards (a tea party proposal - part of their proposed 100 million in cuts). | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Court |
>>>Court: exactly, and those days are not necessarily all behind us. Yes they are. We do, I'd agree, have an entirely new set of concerns and challenges. But construction and industrial safety has seen some great advancement during the past century. Otherwise . . . all of us Safety Professionals would be gathering to commiserate rather than celebrate this evening. I had both a Grandfather and a Father get electrocuted, killed and resuscitated in the electrical construction industry. In the last 15 years I spent 10 of those years as the Safety Director on 3 major new power plant construction projects. I also teach Construction Safety in the Graduate School at Columbia University in New York City. We have (My Father and Grandfather never dreamed of using helicopters to work on live 345kV power lines like I've been doing this past week) an entirely new set of challenges. But the conditions, both work conditions and physical conditions, which led to the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory disaster, are history. I just hope the food is good. Court On this tax deal . . . I have a question. My Grandfather, who some of you know about, was an orphan and lived with 9 families before he turned 16. Although never homeless he was raised in poverty. He never took a handout, worked hard and when he retired, at 87, sold his business for $687M. Does he go in your poor column or your wealthy column? By the way, he never, even after his fruit and vegetable stand had grown to 400 stores, bought a new car. He was a strong believer in "let some other poor sap take the hit for the depreciation". Interesting world. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Sayitaintso |
To a very large extent I agree with you. However, just look at the Big Branch Mine. There's plenty of blame for the incident; the owners, the gov't inspectors, AND the miner's union who didn't step in to make demands about, and force safety compliance. Just because the union didn't do its job, doesn't mean there isn't a job for them to do. As for the overall state of working conditions at the time of the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire: I'm sure others disagree but I believe you're 100% correct. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Aussie2126 |
Court: Things are clearly better, but admittedly not knowing all the details, 14 oil workers died in the BP explosion and spill that allegedly has some connection to short cuts that were taken - I don't know what happened but we do know that 14 guys went to work and did not come home. Not the Triangle shirt scale tragedy but... I do not know your grandfather but given the time frame it appears that he did all of that in what would have been a much "harsher" tax environment, an amazing feat and what sounds like an amazing guy. He did all of that even during the "job killing tax rate" times that he lived in. Yet, now days some assume that it is not possible without additional chinese financed tax cuts. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Reindog |
Aussie2126: Come to Kalifornia and all your dreams will come true. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Sayitaintso |
Tom, that tax table you put up doen't inspire much confidence... It looks like the last set of figures add up to about 130% because they (JEC staff, whoever they are) just extrapolated some numbers from IRS data without ever checking to see if their assumptions/calcualtions made sense. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Aussie2126 |
Reindog: Kalifornia with the idea of not paying your way is the exact opposite of what I have been saying.. example: John McCain has been screaming for a no fly zone over Libya. He also has been screaming that we are broke. Now he has his no fly zone to the tune of... one billion dollars is it? How will we pay for that? One idea that I believe he is down with is cutting heat assistance to the elderly - certainly not that much money there but at least it does not affect him. I did not ask for the no fly zone but either I will pay for it in higher taxes or we will finance it with the chinese. If we must have the product I prefer the first payment method - don't try to kid me that the heat assistance cut is going to pay for it. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Court |
I read this and . .. all I can think of are all those GM workers smoking dope in the park down the street while they exist on government life support. They film them . . do a big expose' . . you think it'd put an end to it . . nope, the union defends them. Two week later . . . film crews catch'em again . . and the cycle repeats. Until we, collectively, get off our lazy asses and learn a little self sufficiency . . there'll be a lot of this going on. Some of us . . and I confess to being on one of those elite groups who gave contributions and were granted, with a wink and a nod, an exemption from Obama-care. . have learned to game the system. It'll have to do for now but it gets old fast. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Johnnymceldoo |
That was Chrysler Court. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Strokizator |
During the 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s 70s and 90s we had a much higher marginal tax rate - it worked then, there seemed to be some prosperity there. Really? The 30's - ever hear of the great depression? The 40's - Nothing like a world war to guarantee full employment. The 50's - two recessions, 1953 & 1958 (the worst since this latest fiasco. I was a kid in Detroit which had 20% unemployment) The 60's - JFK lowered business tax rates to "help get America moving". VietNam was a boon. The 70's - well just two words here - Jimmy Carter. 16% mortgage rates and a new word "stagflation". Wage & price freezes under Nixon The 80's - Ronnie Reagan and a proud time to be an American. Congress still controlled by the Dems.(anybody remember Tip O'Neill?) The 90's - Dot Com bubble and large tax revenues squandered by the govt - both state & federal. Yeah, you're right - those were some great times | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Hootowl |
"16% mortgage rates " Try 18% | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Strokizator |
Hey Aussie, I just noticed that you had left out the 80's as a prosperous time. Do you really hate RRR that much? I think your liberal-progressive panties are showing. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Hootowl |
He left the 80's off of that list. Reagan lowered the tax rate in exchange for closing tax loopholes. Those high tax rates he's so enamored with in the 20's - 60's were never actually paid. Businesses got around them. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Aussie2126 |
I left the eighties off only because it did not fit the pattern for the sky high tax rates. Of course the eighties included the stock market crash of 87 and the recession that followed. Since you brought it up, the great depression actually started in the twenties during the incredibly low tax policy times of Herbert Hoover, similar to the current marginal tax rate (don't worry prosperity is right around the corner, hang tough and keep those tax rates low). Very similar to the game plan now. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Doerman |
By the way, Aussie... you are a good debater! It is a genuine compliment - not a snide remark, by the way. Ok.. carry on. I'm enjoying this! | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Aussie2126 |
Thanks Doerman. It can be fun to do.. and to watch... as long as we don't take it too seriously - what I say is certainly not going to change anything. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Court |
>>>... as long as we don't take it too seriously I always remain mindful that it is the internet and even someone with a screen name of Albert Einstein can be an educationally challenged leper in Mongolia looking for an entertaining afternoon. I do enjoy, agree or disagree, reading some of these type of threads. I provides a flavor for the great diversity of opinion and how folks' background, vocation, upbringing, culture and personal experience shapes their thoughts and feelings. My goal is seldom to persuade or convert . . just to describe the elephant from my point of view. In the over 16 years I've been doing the moto-net thing I've had the great pleasure to meet some incredibly smart folks and some bloomin' idiots. At times . . I've been in both of the columns. It makes the world . . sameultimeoulsy . . both bigger and smaller. I confess to enjoying the inclusion of some of those ill equipped to participate who do take these things personally and become outraged when someone doesn't immediately agree with them. It's fun to toss those mental Schnauzers a bone from time to time just to watch them chase their tail. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Aussie2126 |
Court +1 | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Blake |
Dennis (Sayitaintso), Tom, that tax table you put up doen't inspire much confidence... It looks like the last set of figures add up to about 130% because they (JEC staff, whoever they are) just extrapolated some numbers from IRS data without ever checking to see if their assumptions/calculations made sense. Only if you fail to recognize that the top 10% also includes the top 5% and the top 1%. You can't just sum them all as you would be double and triple dipping. Oops.  | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Blake |
Steve (Aussie2126), >>> no Blake I don't plan to structure mine any differently either, I have a tough time thinking that it is fair for that income to be taxed at a MUCH lower rate. I might agree with that, just not that we or anyone have much of a choice in "structuring" our earned income versus capital gains. I think everyone should pay the same rate and that social security should be taxed on entire incomes. Problem solved. Social security would be funded, everyone pays the same rate, no one can complain. Progressive taxation is wrong and just muddies all the issues. I agree with Jeff (Hootowl)! "Ideally, we'd just have a flat tax rate for everyone, and no tax breaks or incentives, but that would take too much power away from the politicians. We can't be having than now, can we?" | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Blake |
John (Crusty), What has happened in America where we don't like it that an American company is making record profits? When did the idea of making profit become a bad thing? I can answer that. You won't like the answer though. The idea that profits are a bad thing was introduced by Marxists. They are evil scum. Would it be bad or good if no business in America ever set a new record for annual profit? Did you know that you can get in on that action? Why not? Many mutual funds do, or you can purchase the stock alone. Why not? As a shareholder, are you happy or upset about record profits? What about the 33% tax rate? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Sayitaintso |
Good catch Blake, thanks...... and I too agree with Jeff. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Court |
My goal . . . during the years I ran my own business was ALWAYS to make record profits and minimize taxes. Part of that I confess was motivated less by greed than fear as I was the one, in the years those profits failed to materialize . . that had to pick up the difference. I'm sure the last time GM made a "record profit" they hadn't planned on being bankrupt in 30 months. Unfortunately . . . I had no one willing to bend the laws to bail me out so my motivation may have exceeded theirs. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Hootowl |
Bend? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Blake |
Joe (Buell in Mke), >>> I think he has a tough time thinking it is fair for that income to be taxed at a much lower rate... That is a fair point. I might agree. I'd have to study the issue more first. >>> ...because, as a patriotic citizen of the United States of America, he is concerned with the financial crises in this country. Then he should oppose the massive spending that is putting the nation into the red. Namely entitlements. Is it not patriotic to reign in our budget, to cut back everywhere? Would it really be untenable to cut 10% from everything in the Federal budget? I don't think so. Why don't they do it then? Is it not also runaway spending that is unsustainable Joe? >>> We the people have been lied to by politicians and corporations to the point where the country is quickly going broke. I don't think corporations have much to do with the lying that gets the national budget upside-down. Politicians, yes, we agree. The ones who keep voting to spend more more more. >>> Fortunately, we the people are the ones that will fix this problem. We the people want to see this wonderful experiment of democracy and freedom succeed. We the people are willing to sacrifice for our country in order to fix the problems created by politicians and corporations. I'd be on-board with that. What problems to corporations create? Take John Deere for instance? What root cause created the mortgage crisis? That was government activism Joe, government not just backing risky loans, but actually pushing banks to make them. You look at almost any economic crisis and you'll find that activism by the federal gov is either the root cause of it or made it much much worse. >>> We the people are willing to pay more in taxes in order to fix our country. Sure, as long as ALL the people pay more in taxes, no freeloaders, and as long as none of them who get to vote are dependent on mooching or looting to live. If you take more than you give, you no vote. Why should those who take rather than produce be able to vote to take more? It makes no sense. >>> If we the people are willing to pay more, then why should they the corporations and politicians not pay more also? Sounds good to me if what you are talking about is paying down the debt. I'm not willing to pay more if it means giving it to others. I'm willing to pay down the debt. I'm not willing to help fund through the federal gov't any kind of social change, or social justice, or social whatever. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Sifo |
If instead I need to start out in the coal mine and work mega overtime to try to build my capital - or start my business and try to build capital - the marginal tax rate for me (the dollars that I would like to invest) are first taxed as earned income, maybe 35%. I get to use only 65% to build my capital. Are you really trying to convince anyone that a coal miner is making over $379,150 AND union benefits aren't out of control?  | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Sifo |
The 40's - Nothing like a world war to guarantee full employment. I was thinking about that last night. I really hope that isn't the BO plan for the middle east. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Sifo |
Dennis (Sayitaintso), Tom, that tax table you put up doen't inspire much confidence... It looks like the last set of figures add up to about 130% because they (JEC staff, whoever they are) just extrapolated some numbers from IRS data without ever checking to see if their assumptions/calculations made sense. Only if you fail to recognize that the top 10% also includes the top 5% and the top 1%. You can't just sum them all as you would be double and triple dipping. Oops. Thanks Blake. You nailed it. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Aussie2126 |
You guys are scaring me now!!! First it looked like Jeremy and I agreed on most points. Now it turns out that Buellinmike, I, and Blake agree!!! You guys do realize that I have apparently let my "liberal-progressive panties show" on occasion (earlier in this post). You may want to retract your posts | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Blake |
Steve (Aussie...), >>> How much of the economy do the rich now control. "Control"? The economy is controlled by all the consumers and producers. Everyone. What you mean I think is how much of America's assets do wealthy folks own? Yes? Maybe you should be asking how is the standard of living for folks in America progressing over the last hundred years. Is the trend better or worse for us?
That is not accurate, and only close to accurate for people earning well into six figures. The 35% bracket starts at a taxable net income (after all deductions and exemptions) of $373,650. If married filing jointly and putting the max allowed into a 401K and contributing pre-tax to a health insurance plan, you can earn over $200K and with just the standard personal exemption and standard deduction pay only 15% in total income tax. You would be in the 28% bracket, but total income tax would amount to just 15% of your gross income. I don't think there are any deductions allowed on capital gains. If you lose on your investments, you don't get to deduct, you just lose money. I could be wrong. See http://www.moneychimp.com/features/tax_brackets.ht m
|
