| Author | Message | ||
     Sayitaintso |
"The way I see it, Union-breaking is as socialist as our government is becoming. ?????????????????????????????????????????????" Kinda depends if it is a forced membership or voluntary unionization..... and socialist isnt the best choice of terms, but it is anti free market to have the government break up a voluntary union; regardless of the union's membership base. | ||
| Xbniner |
The way I see it, Union-breaking is as socialist as our government is becoming. ????????????????????????????????????????????? Did you read the rest of the post? I know I'm not as eloquent as a lot of you guys, but that's what I just can't understand. I'm an engineer- numbers are easier than words for me. That's why I generally stay quiet here.  Socialism is (roughly stated) when government controls basically everything that should be private sector. What we are seeing is the first step of unions going away, summarily giving more power to corporations, or in this case- government. I don't see how anybody can be for small government, yet want to see the governor of WI absorb more control by eliminating collective bargaining? Or are you only concerned with them exerting control over your life? "Don't touch my money or my freedom, just take theirs" sounds pretty socialist to me... | ||
| Boltrider |
The problem is the whole deal involves tax dollars. On a local level, I see it as a matter of civic functionality versus organized labor, with organized labor being a place holder for the Democratic party. | ||
| Xbniner |
Kinda depends if it is a forced membership or voluntary unionization..... and socialist isnt the best choice of terms, but it is anti free market to have the government break up a voluntary union; regardless of the union's membership base. Thank you SayItaintso, socialism probably isn't the right word | ||
| Court |
>>>The healthcare bill for example makes exemptions to select union employees. I am exempt. Yet . . . my medical insurance went up about $150 every 2 weeks starting 1/1/11 | ||
| Sayitaintso |
The problem is the whole deal involves tax dollars. On a local level, I see it as a matter of civic functionality versus organized labor, with organized labor being a place holder for the Democratic party. Once it is paid to employees it is no longer tax dollars...its wages, same as any other employee in the nations workforce. The employees should be able to do with them whatever they want. They should not be forced to pay dues though. As far as I know paying of union dues is not mandatory, whether an employee falls into the bargining unit or not. I may be wrong on that though b/c it varies from state to state. | ||
| Sifo |
"The way I see it, Union-breaking is as socialist as our government is becoming. ?????????????????????????????????????????????" Kinda depends if it is a forced membership or voluntary unionization..... and socialist isnt the best choice of terms, but it is anti free market to have the government break up a voluntary union; regardless of the union's membership base. How many unions are voluntary? You want to work at a given place you are forced to join the union? If you want to teach at a public school, you have to join the union. Beyond that, I haven't seen where this busts any unions, much less unions in the private sector. Still waiting for Rocket to come back with those specifics. The unions for government workers are huge machines designed to take taxpayer dollars and funnel that into the pockets of politicians of their choice. If someone can't see how that is wrong then I really don't know what is going on between their ears. Can anyone realistically defend tax dollars getting funneled into political parties? | ||
| Sifo |
As far as I know paying of union dues is not mandatory, whether an employee falls into the bargining unit or not. I may be wrong on that though b/c it varies from state to state. There is nothing voluntary about it. You have to join to teach. The dues are deducted from you check before you ever even get the money. Nothing voluntary about it, other than you could volunteer to not work. | ||
| Boltrider |
A good point was brought up on TV and it's probably already been stated in another thread, but many years ago (50ish?) federal employees were stripped of most of their bargaining rights. What the governor in Wisconsin is trying to do is very similar to what happened to federal employees way back when. I believe it was FDR who oversaw that change, as he said it was necessary for a better-functioning government. Federal employees don't seem to need any sympathy as they seem to be getting along just fine. | ||
| Sayitaintso |
The local government here has 2 unions, a police union and a fire union. Anyone can work for the police or fire departments. and not be part of the union. Your pay and benefits are determined through collective bargaining, but nothing forces you to pay dues. But then Fl is a right to work state (Message edited by sayitaintso on March 01, 2011) | ||
| Sifo |
Saddam Hussein had the Baath party in Iraq. Those who wanted to live a more prosperous life joined and got better paying jobs. They were also compelled to attend Baath party meetings. They were also told when to publicly demonstrate. Anyone see any parallels? | ||
| F22raptor |
O.K guys,back to the reason I started this post....This is why this story will never see the light of day or the newspapers.My son came home yesterday to tell me that the "official" word on the teachers dismissal (firing!) is as follows: Mr,history teacher has decided to take a paid leave of absence for the rest of the year using accumulated sick-days,and then after this school-year is over,he will retire and go off into the sunset with his $100K per year pension with all the benefits until he dies..Unions may had had there place at one time,but you got to admit that this has gone to far! | ||
| Sayitaintso |
Rather than targeting any particular union then, how about pushing through a right to work law? | ||
| Sifo |
Sayitaintso, I see your profile shows you in FL. Fl is a right to work state, isn't it? Very different laws than WI, or most states for that matter. | ||
| Sayitaintso |
Brian, union involvement or not, it is often easier and cheaper to pay someone off rather than trying to dismiss someone that may claim some "right" was violated. I'm not saying I like it or that its right, just pointing out how things are in this very litigious society we have  | ||
| Boltrider |
Sayitaintso - my problem is with mandatory dues. The dues for police/sheriff deputy out here in CA are automatically deducted, just like taxes, and membership of the union is a condition of employment. It wouldn't surprise me if most/all of the public sector unions here in CA operate the same way. How else do you explain how they get so big and powerful? | ||
| Sayitaintso |
Like I've said all along, forced unionization is wrong....I've never lived in a place that wasn't a right to work state so I have a vastly different perspective than many of you guys. | ||
| Boltrider |
F22 - why am I not surprised by that result? Is he being charged with bringing a weapon on campus? | ||
| F22raptor |
Thanks,Dennis,I never looked at it that way,but it makes sense.One question though that you all could help me with...I always teach my kids to take responsibility for their actions and be accountable for their mistakes.The example I use(and they are really sick of hearing it!) is do not blame the cop that gave you the speeding ticket,simple,I know,bur effective.So when my son asks me why this teacher seems to go by a different set of rules then the rest of us...how would you answer it? Life-lesson I know,but tough call for a Dad! | ||
| Sifo |
So when my son asks me why this teacher seems to go by a different set of rules then the rest of us...how would you answer it? That's how it was under Saddam's Baath party.  | ||
| Sayitaintso |
If he is mature enough to understand tell him the truth. It would have cost 250-300 per hour for an attorney (times however many attorneys and assistants are involved) to defend firing him (and maybe still lose, where the costs really go through the roof) as opposed to paying him off to just go away. If he not old enough to understand that, fall back on one of the maxims of life..."it aint fair". Learning that "it aint fair" happens all the time, is an important lesson in its own way. | ||
| F22raptor |
My son is almost 18...he understands the big-picture..that is why it is so hard to answer the question.He was the only student is his class to respectably speak his mind and stand up for what was right,not follow along like sheep.For that,I am proud! This is my son B.T.W (#44) best linebacker in the state,trying to get him a D-1 ride for med-school on a athletic scholarship.(unnecessary plug for my kid.but ya-know!) He rides a DRZ-400sm too!  | ||
| Socoken |
I know some really enthusiastic, bright young teachers that lost their jobs over these cuts yesterday. Its not just "paying a little into pensions and health care." Im usually pretty right sided, but I regret voting for Walker. (Message edited by socoken on March 01, 2011) | ||
| Sayitaintso |
Pappa should be very proud, and good for him to stand up to his teacher....its often hard to stand up to "authority" figures. I'd give him both answers then, as one or a combination of the two are probably the reason(s) for the result of the debacle. Good form staying low for the tackle too. | ||
| Blake |
XBniner, You in a union? Why are you not up in arms? You need a union? No? Me neither. Why do teachers and other professionals like police and firemen need a union? And more to the point of the current issue, why do they need collective bargaining rights? Why should taxpayers have to pay for the lobbying efforts of those looking to get more of taxpayer money? That is the issue of the collective bargaining. Why do you think the unions and the Dems so feared the voucher program? It would have taken a HUGE bite out of their power base. It's not more power for the gov't, it's less insider corruption and misuse of taxpayer money. It is what is right and just. | ||
| Blake |
Unions provide a counter to adversarial corporate management. In the public sector, there is no such adversarial attitude of management. The gov't is generally very pro public sector. So why do they need a union, let alone the right to have taxpayers pay for them to lobby for more taxpayer money? | ||
| Sifo |
Its not just "paying a little into pensions and health care." Please feel free to share. If you aren't willing to express your concerns, then don't expect others to have any understanding of those concerns. | ||
| Aesquire |
The dire warnings seem really vague without any facts. Heard today mayor Bloomberg, ( full disclosure. I think he's a dude who failed to buy the D nomination, so bought the R one. I very much dislike this guy's stand on 90+% of his policies....) plans to lay off 6000 teachers. He tried to get the teachers union to let him lay off 4000 of the worst teachers, ones who don't teach but get paid anyway. ( for reasons including incompetence, mental illness, violent assault and rape ) The Union said NO. He has to lay off the new teachers he hired first. Seniority rules. Now, that could be pure BS, I haven't checked. It does fit with my experience in Unions. I'm a member. We have an adversarial relationship with management. Union bosses have real nice perks and salaries, and they spend members dues on political contributions. If I wished, I could get back the money they spend of mine on contri..oh, heck, bribes. It works out to a real small amount each year, and I'm sure that I would get no problems with the union for asking but I don't. I'm also sure the union would defend me as they would their own, If I dropped out of the union. I'm also convinced of the tooth fairy, but my sex life is not at issue here.  Ok, here's an article. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-02-17/bloomberg -s-new-york-city-budget-said-to-include-firing-of- 4-666-teachers.html The numbers are a bit different than I heard, and I find it unsurprising that the union's tv ad uses class warfare tactics. | ||
| Johnnylunchbox |
I'm not that smart (disclaimer). Teachers seem to be being demonized here, as are other municipal workers. I think what we need to look at is the ratio of workers/administrators (for lack of a better term). Who is really taking the most taxpayer dollars? In my semi-rural (suburban nowadays) school district it seems the table of organization is top heavy, and it is similar in other school districts. You have a superintendent, Vice-super, vice-vice-super, super in charge of toilet paper, vice toilet paper bottle counter.... you get my point. When I was in school it was a teacher for each grade, and a principal and a secretary and a janitor. My head is spinning. | ||
| Sifo |
Teachers seem to be being demonized here The teachers union is made of teachers. |
