| Author | Message | ||
     Sayitaintso |
Public compensation and benefits shouldn't be any better on average than the private sector. If you are willing to leave a private sector job to do the same thing for the public sector for more money and benefits, the public sector job is paying too much. Agreed 110%, In the past the traditional thought was that public sector got less (than the private sector) in their paycheck in trade for better benefits and the promise of a pension. Somewhere along the way it got out of wack and the public sector benefits when through the roof. Today, public sector paychecks are typically lower than private sector, but not that much lower. (i.e. a CPA with 20 years experience and an expert in the tax code making about 65K) It was easy for politicians to promise pension benefits that wouldn't be paid out for many years, and they did just that.....well, the many years are running out and those promises are coming due. Public sector employees that bitch about their low pay need to look at their total compensation package. Private sector employees that bitch about public sector benefits need to look at the public sectors' total compensation package (not just the pension). If the total compensation packages are out of line, they need to be adjusted. (Message edited by sayitaintso on February 23, 2011) | ||
| Doerman |
Welcome to the real world. I've worked for three corporations, not one offered a pension. Working for a private company = no pension. Provide for your own pension through 401K, IRA etc. - or have none. WHY IS IT A GOD GIVEN RIGHT THAT PUBLIC EMPLOYEES GET A PENSION, $5 COPAY END EVERY HOLIDAY KNOWN TO MANKIND!!!!! I am so sick and tired of providing for the public employees a better retirement, health care, days off..... you name it, than I can afford for myself and my family. What's worse is listening to the incessant complaining from Pub Empl that they don't have enough (keep in mind, I live in Cali)! I really would not mind if we temporarily cut the funding to the government, local and federal, to bring this situation back to reality. | ||
| Boltrider |
It's still amazing to me that Wisconsin public workers were not paying one cent into their OWN retirement. I'm not sure if what I said above is entirely true, but the current pension deductions over there are incredibly low if they're above zero. Some articles say zero, others say the current rate of most workers is "far less than the 5.8%" deduction the governor is asking for. (Message edited by boltrider on February 23, 2011) | ||
| Sifo |
What I would really like to see is the military given pay and benefits comparable to teachers. Liberals always look at military spending as one of the first places to cut (one of the few things actually mandated by the constitution), but will fight tooth and nail to keep teachers (and other civil servant union workers) rolling ridiculous amounts of cash. I can at least understand the argument for unions in the private sector. They really don't make much sense in the public sector, other than being a cash generating machine for the politicians. Right now the more cash a politician can get for union workers, the more union dues the unions can contribute back to the politicians. That is a very bad incestuous relationship that needs to be stopped. | ||
| Sifo |
It's still amazing to me that Wisconsin public workers were not paying one cent into their OWN retirement. If they had to pay for their own retirement, they would quickly realize that they expect too much in retirement benefits. | ||
| Sayitaintso |
This is what I'm talking about...only looking at part of the total compensation. For teachers, what is their take home pay?...Whats the value of the time they have off? How does it compare to say... a corporate trainer? (the closest private sector equivalent I could think of off the top of my head). | ||
| Sifo |
How does it compare to say... a corporate trainer? (the closest private sector equivalent I could think of off the top of my head). Compare them to private school teachers. Most of them work for a fraction of the pay, with few benefits, yet achieve much better results. Rewards (pay/benefits) need to be tied to results if you want education to improve. How hard will most people work when results don't matter? | ||
| Sayitaintso |
Sifo, great example...much better than mine | ||
| Sifo |
Keep in mind that teaching is also virtually a part time job when you look at the seasonality of it. Comparing them to people who work year round is ridiculous. Mind you, being tied to the school system myself, I really enjoy having the riding season off! I don't get the pay or the benefits though. Our school district this week has Monday and Friday off, today was a short day.  | ||
| Paint_shaker |
"Public compensation and benefits shouldn't be any better on average than the private sector. If you are willing to leave a private sector job to do the same thing for the public sector for more money and benefits, the public sector job is paying too much." When was the last time a public sector person was specifically sent to and/or was a first responding person EXPECTED to take care of; A murder? A robbery? A battery? A suicide?, A fatal traffic crash? A mentally distrubed person out of control? Or, Tell someone their loved one has died? Had someone want to harm or kill them because of the clothes you wear? WHEN was the last time a private sector person was sent to a suspicious person, and as they aproached that person, was shot before they knew what happened??? (RIP St Pete Ofc David Crawford KIA on 02-21-11 in just such a senario). If you think law enforcement is paid too much, go ride with one. Then tell me they make too much or their benefits are too good... | ||
| Sub65chris |
"Public compensation and benefits shouldn't be any better on average than the private sector. If you are willing to leave a private sector job to do the same thing for the public sector for more money and benefits, the public sector job is paying too much." how much do private security jobs pay? on average. i am sure that the comments were directed towards more of the beurocratic side of things. stop being so sensitive. most people weather they like or dislike police officers at least know they need them! cops are a necessity and most of the riders here know how valuable they are to us and our families. what about the military? this could go on for a long time. the real issue is there is no money for the current system to continue! everyone needs to realize this. money comes from other americans! so treat it like it is your money and dont get carried away. we all need public adn private sector, just need to pay for both and that is the real issue | ||
| Sifo |
IMO the police are an example of public servants that earn their keep every day. I bet they make less than the teachers on average too. | ||
| Paint_shaker |
Private security is not law enforcment. I pay taxes. I do treat it as it is my money. You want good service, your gonna have to pay for it. That's life. Don't believe me? The next time you go out to eat tell the waiter person you are going to leave them a .75 cent tip on a $10 bill. See how much service you get. Then go somewhere else and tell the waiter person you are going to tip them $10 on a $10 bill. Which do you think you'll get better service at?? The military is an entirely different animal (for the record I served). | ||
| Whatever |
Wow... a lot of comments from people who know absolutely nothing about the requirements for becoming a teacher in the great state of Wisconsin... I have a science degree from Duke University and if I wanted to teach sixth grade geology in Wisconsin, I need a Masters in Education plus another year on top of that for my certification... Do any of you have any idea how much money that costs??? By my estimation that is 40,000 to 60,000 dollars... IN ADDITION TO the cost of my bachelors... which at my school cost 80,000... which I agree is pretty steep, but at a conservative estimate getting a teaching certificate in Wisconsin after graduating high school is 80,000+... Which will only INCREASE as Walker cuts state aide... WHO IS GOING TO GO INTO TEACHING ? I tell you, it would be easier to get a Masters in Engineering... tell me, if I had to pay 80,000$ in school debt, exactly what would be too much to make??? Walker, by the way did not even get a Bachelors... and how does this make him qualified for Gov? Our last Gov had a JD... And, on an unrelated note, the public service workers have already conceeded the pay cuts and benefits contributions... it is the outlwaing of collective bargaining that they are opposed to in the contract... I have friends who are listening to bagpipes all day working down on the square... from the firefighters who are protesting... now exactly what would drive someone who is EXEMPTED (firefighters) from the collective bargaining rights becoming illegal be protesting and risking their own career? Because the bill is arbitrary and unfair... AND HOW is this related to Obabma? Obama isn't responsible for the State of Wisconsin politics any more than Palin is responsible for an Arizona senator getting shot... wake up and smell the coffee conservatives... this is only the beginning, unfortunately...  | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Law Enforcement, Firemen, and Military are intentionally underpaid. I DON'T believe they they are overpaid. Of those working for government, these three groups are some of the smallest of the group. The LARGEST and MOST expensive operation on a state budget is education. Statists HATE sheepdogs. These folks represent sheepdogs. Statists pay the minimum amout possible knowing that police, fire, and military personnel are the most vital. The schools could close tomorrow, but we couldn't go without P, F, or M. It's a game that's played. If WI terminated the school system tomorrow anf gave each student half of the annual per student cost in cash to hire a tutor or do private school, the educational results would be better and the budget would be balanced. | ||
| Whatever |
Really... wow... there are some police who are protesting as well at GREAT RISK to losing their jobs... the bill is not about education... it is arbitrary and unfair... I am glad I don't have kids myself... but hey, why should I care... they are only going to be running the country when I can't change my own diapers... | ||
| Whatever |
Got another Armadillo to chase off... this one is rather aggresive... | ||
| Sifo |
Wow... a lot of comments from people who know absolutely nothing about the requirements for becoming a teacher in the great state of Wisconsin... I have a science degree from Duke University and if I wanted to teach sixth grade geology in Wisconsin, I need a Masters in Education plus another year on top of that for my certification... Do any of you have any idea how much money that costs??? By my estimation that is 40,000 to 60,000 dollars... IN ADDITION TO the cost of my bachelors... which at my school cost 80,000... which I agree is pretty steep, but at a conservative estimate getting a teaching certificate in Wisconsin after graduating high school is 80,000+... Which will only INCREASE as Walker cuts state aide... WHO IS GOING TO GO INTO TEACHING ? I tell you, it would be easier to get a Masters in Engineering... tell me, if I had to pay 80,000$ in school debt, exactly what would be too much to make??? Walker, by the way did not even get a Bachelors... and how does this make him qualified for Gov? Our last Gov had a JD... And, on an unrelated note, the public service workers have already conceeded the pay cuts and benefits contributions... it is the outlwaing of collective bargaining that they are opposed to in the contract... I have friends who are listening to bagpipes all day working down on the square... from the firefighters who are protesting... now exactly what would drive someone who is EXEMPTED (firefighters) from the collective bargaining rights becoming illegal be protesting and risking their own career? Because the bill is arbitrary and unfair... AND HOW is this related to Obabma? Obama isn't responsible for the State of Wisconsin politics any more than Palin is responsible for an Arizona senator getting shot... wake up and smell the coffee conservatives... this is only the beginning, unfortunately... This is what you get when you value how much money you can throw at a problem instead of valuing the result that can be obtained. There's no need for that level of education to teach at a sixth grade level. BTW you don't actually NEED a masters in education to teach sixth grade, but it will guarantee a higher salary along with higher pension payout. What it won't guarantee is better education. How does any of this relate to BO? He stuck is nose in it though. This thread started with his talk about needing more civility and the current call out by a Democratic representative for the unions to go and get bloody. I don't hear him having any concerns for this outright call for violence though. Go figure? | ||
| Sub65chris |
paintshaker- i am glad you served , so did i. the point i am trying to make is that there is only so much money the govornment can take from its citizens and corporations. that is called taxes and penalties etc. if they spend more than that amount they are in trouble and because they are us we are in trouble. mabye you missed the part where i said i need cops and i know it. mabye we all need to put emotions aside adn look at basic math. somewhere the cut must be made. people must be responsable for their own problems and needs. the compensation packages that are being argued about right now are far better than what most americans have. cops teachers firemen and military all need funding(basic needs for everyday people). where does the extra spending get cut? when does teh money taken from citizens equal what is being spent? when does teh government become accountable? i get it you are pasionate about cops and teachers and unions. but you need to look at the dollars and come up with a solution. if chiping in for your own retirement is to much or pay for part of your healthcare is to much then there are other issues that need attention. you were in tha military you hve seen waste and crazy spending first hand. where do you make the cut? how do you decide what to cut? something needs to happen and trust me if teh same old same old keeps happening we are all in trouble. | ||
| Jpagel |
Getting sick of all of this crap. I am employed.. therefore pay taxes. I am funding my own retirement. If there is some pension left, bonus.. Health care for my family costs me money every month, plus $4500 out of pocket before I reach the deductible every year. In my book, social security is dead. So why are all of these people screaming that they may have to pay a little for their own retirement and healthcare. Teachers, firefighters and policepersons are vital to the community. Police generate their own revenue (believe me, I've paid a few speeding tickets in Wisconsin.. ouch). What they are forgetting is.. hey, I pay taxes.. you work for me.. get the F back to work. | ||
| Sub65chris |
"What they are forgetting is.. hey, I pay taxes.. you work for me.. get the F back to work". the real issue is that we all work for the government.people cant understand and teh system is built around the fact we are surfs to the king. try not paying taxes. jail! | ||
| Court |
These discussions seem to always follow a fairly predictable trajectory. I am not up on what all teachers are making but I do know what they are making in the area where I work, it's not great, but it is into the 6 figures and it works. It's not the pay that gripes me. Teachers have no business having things like tenure (you've all read about our "Rubber Rooms" here in NYC) and some of the ridiculous accouterments that serve as disincentives to teach. The by-product of teaching should be smart, well educated kids. The system we have now, Wisconsin is just the start, has grown wildly out of control and sync with reality. It's going to change one way or another. By the way . . I noted (and I pay nearly all my own retirement} that the cost of my medical insurance (thanks for the saving Obama) went up about $200 for each bi-monthly check. I get an $18,000 allowance but pay the rest of it myself. Things. . . like it or now . . . will be changing soon. I'm (and some of you may recall the story about my hilarious story when they tried to get me to run for Mayor of Topeka, KS) still in favor of doubling law enforcement salaries. . . they are a national disgrace. | ||
| Two_seasons |
OK, I've diving in. I've served in the Navy. I saw the waste and also the commitment by most who served. Have worked in and around engineering for the past 35 years. My wife is a certified WI school teacher. She is currently home schooling our children. Collective bargaining allows local munincipalities to adjust to their own revenue (taxes) stream and pay accordingly. Even FDR knew, back in the day, that collective bargaining would be the straw that evenually would break the camel's back! Current Wisconsin state employees pay 0.06% of their pension retirement, the taxpayers pick up 99.4% of the public employees future retirement. Tenured public school teachers in Wisconsin currently earn an average of $89,000 with benefits. Teachers in Wisconsin are not allowed to maintain order in their classrooms. As stated earlier, a teacher will be at fault if they single out a disruptive student. We don't have statewide school choice in Wisconsin. Over 50% of our HS seniors drop out of Milwaukee Public Schools. Those parents that do get involved in curriculum and the social teachings in our school system are usually harrassed. There is a vast difference between intellect and wisdom. The former is dirived from education, the later from life experiences. And another thing, this has nothing to do with conservative vs. liberal. The State of Wisconsin taxpayers cannot afford to provide what we used to provide. There simply isn't enough revenue (taxes) to support what we used to support. The unemployment rate in Wisconsin is currently at 7.5%, so there are alot of people that simply aren't paying payroll taxes, sales (because they aren't working) taxes, business taxes are down (we just closed our small business). There simply isn't any more to wring out of the turnip. My wife isn't working this year, our energy prices are going up, our utility prices are going up, our food and clothing prices are going up. We are making do with our old home, windows, furnace, cars, so how come those in the gov't can't do the same? (Message edited by two_seasons on February 24, 2011) | ||
| Buellerandy |
Does anyone have a link or other form f evidence to suggest walker doesn't have a form of higher education? I'm just curious because I can't find any. Someone also informed me, who's usually reliable with factual info that he also has plans to drop the Wisconsin state patrol. Again I haven't found any info and am just seeking some backup for other forum discussions  | ||
| Buellerandy |
Nevermind, found some. | ||
| Doerman |
Do any of you have any idea how much money that costs??? By my estimation that is 40,000 to 60,000 dollars... IN ADDITION TO the cost of my bachelors... The difference is how one would view the cost of higher education. I don't believe in the model where the state or federal government is responsible for the return on that investment. Education is an investment with it's inherent risk of a good return. tell me, if I had to pay 80,000$ in school debt, exactly what would be too much to make??? What the market will bear Because the bill is arbitrary and unfair... Unfair to whom? What does a corporation do when faced with a deficit? Cut. The largest corporation we have are the federal and state governments. Tell me, why should they should be exempt from living with their means. (Message edited by doerman on February 24, 2011) | ||
| Reindog |
It is arrogance to suggest that a person without a college degree is less intelligent than one who does. Or perhaps watching "The Wizard of Oz" a few too many times? | ||
| Reindog |
Asbjorn once again states the obvious for those who refuse to see. Thanks. I have no pension. I fund my own 401(k) with limited employer participation and vesting rules. I have an at-will employment agreement where either party can say ta-ta at any time. I share in the expense of my health care benefits. I negotiated my own salary. There was no union behind me nor was one desired. My only ally was my resume. Public sector workers should do EXACTLY the same. Public sector unionization is dangerous and should be abolished. For once, I agree with FDR. | ||
| Blake |
As usual, Ann nails it. In fact, government employees should never, ever be allowed to organize. | ||
| Sayitaintso |
What the market will bear While the market is very effective in most cases it is not the only measuring stick and not the be all and end of of how decisions should be made....if it was we would have monopolies and trusts running everything, the environment would be for sheite and wealth distribution would be so uneven it would lead to rebellion/revolution. This would be a very different world, and not one that I would live in, I would work to change it or die trying. |
