| Author | Message | ||
     Sifo |
It's been a short time since BO said we need to be more civil in political rhetoric. What's going on in Wisconsin has certainly shown some true colors. Demonstrators with signs showing cross hairs on the forehead of the Governor, demonstrators flooding the floor of the state house while in session, state legislators refusing to even come back into the state in order to prevent the legislator from doing the work that they are paid for. Now we have an actual call for the unions to go out and get bloody from an elected official. It's great to see what side BO has aligned himself with on this too. So who's to blame when the blood starts to flow? Freakin' idiots! | ||
| Reindog |
It is time to photograph and identify the workers who are occupying the state house while obtaining fraudulent excuse notes from their physicians. They should be punished to the full extent up to and including dismissal, for unexcused absences. They claim they are teaching the children civics lessons. Hurling epithets at the Governor is quite the lesson. | ||
| 86129squids |
"Quoth the Raven, Nevermore." | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I find it interesting that the "Fox Lies!" protester is an 8th grade teacher. 2/3 of 8th graders tested, can't read at an 8th grade level. Based upon the quality of product produced (academic level of students of WI), ALL the teachers are grossly overpaid. | ||
| Court |
Me? . . . I'm up for a "Reagan Moment". I've been watching "civil servants" (the Staten Island Ferry mechanics and librarians) retire with $200,000 / year pensions. The term "unsustainable" comes to mind. | ||
| Buellerandy |
Fatty, I promise you, not ALL TEACHERS in Wisconsin are overpaid. As far as reading goes, teachers have 8 hours to teach x amount of students the lessons for the day. Their proficiency is attained at home through homework exercises and good parenting. It is my honest opinion that if a child doesn't learn how to read, it is just as much the parents fault as it might be the instructor's. I'm not trying to take away some of the childish behavior of late from some of the teachers out there, but there are still those that went to work and protested afterwards. I think its safe to assume that most members on this board could be described as passionate. A lot of the teaching force are passionate as well. To be a teacher, its pretty much a requirement in this day and age. Especially when many parents put the weight on the teacher's shoulders to raise their kid so the parent doesn't have to. Many teachers understand and are willing to give up the request from Gov. Walker. A few will deny it but MOST are willing. I don't mean to side track the thread but we all know where generalizing gets us... Edit- the one thing they don't want to give up is collective bargaining of course. Which I don't blame them, I wouldn't either. Otherwise I would support the bill if Walker took that out of it. I voted for the guy, I support him, his ideals, but not this bill as its written. (Message edited by buellerandy on February 23, 2011) | ||
| Reindog |
Love the "Reagan Moment" comment as I was thinking the same thing. When Reagan fired the illegal PATCO strikers, there was nothing but screeching about unfairness and planes were going to fall out of the sky. Reagan stood firm and the world did not end. Apparently, this lesson needs to be relearned. BTW, I am not anti-teacher. I am married to one.  | ||
| Paint_shaker |
"Me? . . . I'm up for a "Reagan Moment". I've been watching "civil servants" (the Staten Island Ferry mechanics and librarians) retire with $200,000 / year pensions. The term "unsustainable" comes to mind." After 25 years in law enforcement, my retirement will be LESS than 1/5 of that... If the Gov doesn't steal my pension before I retire... Something ain't right... I am a pro-union kinda guy. But I must admit more than a few of them have bargained WAY beyond fair compensation and benefits to the point of being stupidly ridiculous. (Message edited by Paint shaker on February 23, 2011) | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Andy, of course there are exceptions, but for the most part, WI isn't getting what they pay for. TN isn't either. Nor is NY or CA. There are about the same number of children per teacher, the same or more hours of school, the same or more days in the school, and by far more money per student being spent, and yet the proficiency continues to drop. A good bit of the problem is the federally mandated curriculum. There is no reason that in 8 hours a day that ANY child with the ability to learn (no learning disabilities) should be unable to read. It just doesn't seem to be a priority. There is however plenty of time to indoctrinate children about My Two Daddies and Global Warming. Until kids can read, write, and do math proficiently, the rest of the studies are simply irrelevant. The sooner states take back their educational process the better. The Department of Education needs to cease to exist yesterday. How stupid it is to remove funds from the states, force them to fulfill a set of Federal standards, just to get back a portion of their own money. | ||
| Buellerandy |
I certainly don't want to see negative behavior sprout from whatever happens with the bill. I'm glad we have a Governor who has the balls to stand up. I can only hope his ideals spread through both political parties to bring a halt to over spending and financial accountability. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
The problem is that with collective bargaining still in place, there is no way to make any lasting changes. Any concession made is likely to be undone down the road or will come at the price of future benefit enhancements down the road. Collective bargaining always simply kicks the liability can down the road for someone else to deal with. Plus removing the collective bargaining prevents the Legislature of WI from having to come crawling on hands and knees to beg for additional cuts down the road. It's a permanent solution rather than a band aid. NO public employee should have collective bargaining rights. | ||
| Buellerandy |
I definitely agree with you on the Federal matter. But I still believe that teachers can lead a horse to water. They can use many methods to teach the horse to drink from that source, but if there isn't support for education and the learning process at home, then the horse will soon forget and focus its attention elsewhere. | ||
| Buellerandy |
On the issue of collective bargaining- I can trust that Walker has the best intentions for the welfare of the state. But what worries me is what about the next guy that gets elected? I mean, hes talking about shitcanning the State Patrol. You know as well as I do how thin the blue line is in this country. | ||
| Paint_shaker |
It's all over spendding until you wonder why childeren are dumb as a box of rocks, your house is burning down or someone is trying to break in to your house. Then it is why didn't the teachers teach, why is the fire truck coming from 16 miles away and why haven't the police responded yet. | ||
| Buellerandy |
Its just scary how slippery of a slope this could become in the wrong/worse hands buddy. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
In the old days, when students wouldn't do the work, teachers failed them. Do that a couple of times, and parents get the message that work must be done and it's not the teacher's job to make sure it is. If the kid fails to show up, the truancy officer hauls the kid in. If truancy continues, the parents get hauled in. Eventually, they get the hint. | ||
| Paint_shaker |
Florida is a "right to work" state without collective bargaining or binding arbitration. After 13 years of employement with the state I earned roughly $2500 more a YEAR then the rookies I was training. When I was hired there was a yearly step pay increase. I received TWO in 13 years. (Then) Gov J Bush simply eliminated the step pay plan and replaced it with a min starting and a (now lower) maximum. Did I mention there was there was no provision to move from min to max... I no longer work for the state... | ||
| Paint_shaker |
"In the old days, when students wouldn't do the work, teachers failed them. Do that a couple of times, and parents get the message that work must be done and it's not the teacher's job to make sure it is." Fatty, your on to something here!!! | ||
| Cowboy |
If the unions dont start useing some common sence we are all going down the toilet. | ||
| Blake |
Keep smoke detectors and fire extinguishers in adequate numbers and up to date. Keep a shotgun and shells handy. Doubtful you'll be calling for the police or fire fighters to save you. What the heck is collective bargaining anyway? I'm ignorant. | ||
| Buellerandy |
"In the old days, when students wouldn't do the work, teachers failed them. Do that a couple of times, and parents get the message that work must be done and it's not the teacher's job to make sure it is." I agree 100%- it needs to be brought back. Nowadays teachers aren't even allowed to yell or say "shut up" because it might hurt someones feelings. Your not allowed to rag on a kid because "it singles them out." Funny how back in the day, school shootings weren't nearly as popular... | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
There is a game that gets played. When things get tight, state moneys are spent on social programs FIRST then whatever is left is spent on fire, police, and education. If there isn't enough to fund these, then the call goes out that taxes need to be raised. If you stand in the way of these tax increases, you are against education firemen or police protection. Priorities state that you fund education, fire and police first and then whatever is left over is used to fund social programs. If you are on welfare, you are a ward of the state. As such, you receive benefits only when and IF the state revenues are sufficient to fund them. If the revenues aren't sufficient, it means that the taxpayers (companies, and individuals) aren't prosperous enough to provide the taxable revenues. We have to stop taking food out of the mouths of those who have earned it and giving it, forcibly, to those who refuse to earn it. | ||
| Sayitaintso |
Florida is a "right to work" state without collective bargaining or binding arbitration. After 13 years of employement with the state I earned roughly $2500 more a YEAR then the rookies I was training. When I was hired there was a yearly step pay increase. I received TWO in 13 years. (Then) Gov J Bush simply eliminated the step pay plan and replaced it with a min starting and a (now lower) maximum. Did I mention there was there was no provision to move from min to max... I no longer work for the state... Exactly My wife and many friends work for the State of FL. They are not at all happy with what the new governor is proposing....5% pay cut, increased contribution to pension for existing workers, no pension for new employees, increased contribution for health insurance (about 7k more per year for a family plan), have not received a raise in 6+ years, and probably some more stuff that I cant remember off the top of my head. For middle managers and above its a hit but not the end of the world....for those with kids making less than 20K a year I dont see how they can survive. However, I tell them, if you feel like you're not compensated fairly, find a new job. There isn't anything or anyone making you stay in your current job. If enough people "walk" pay rates will be adjusted accordingly, if not, then the pay must be fair. They get mad about it but thats how things work, if you dont like your pay for what you're doing....find a job where you do. | ||
| Buellerandy |
Or just wait for another year extension on unemployment from Jobama once this one runs up, just like my neighbor. | ||
| Blake |
>>> My wife and many friends work for the State of FL. They are not at all happy with what the new governor is proposing....5% pay cut, increased contribution to pension for existing workers, no pension for new employees, increased contribution for health insurance (about 7k more per year for a family plan), have not received a raise in 6+ years, and probably some more stuff that I cant remember off the top of my head. Welcome to the real world. I've worked for three corporations, not one offered a pension. In all cases, I paid more for health insurance as time went on. In some cases raises were not happening for anyone. Who the !#@$% ever said life was going to gift us a soft comfy living??? | ||
| Buellerandy |
I don't expect a soft comfy living. Hell, I don't even expect to be able to retire at this rate lol. If people want a good retirement plan, they should start a 401k or start setting money aside every paycheck if they don't want to invest. However so long as their are jobs WITH benefits, I'll try my damndest to work for one out of my own free right to. Same goes for people claiming union dues are a form of extortion. If you don't want to pay the dues, then work elsewhere, personally, so long as its going towards a group of people with a purpose to help me maintain said benefits, I'll happily contribute my fair share. If they fail, I'll elsewhere... If I was a teacher and they end up breaking the union or whatever, I'd probably be looking eslewhere to teach. I hear Australia's always looking | ||
| Sub65chris |
what it really comes down to is there is no more money for the current benifit plans. most places businesses adn government offices are not doing well at all. when unemployment is where it is and those of us with jobs cant cover them why are all these people so opposed to taking care of themselves? no one has a perfect plan to fix where we are as a country or as small and large businesses but we need to look at real simple economics. if a state has 10 dollars adn has promised 11 dollars for benifits adn compensations there is a problem. sounds like people need to harden the f#*k up! put on the big boy adn girl pants and make it work, there are those with no benifits at all and they somehow make it work. done venting now, thanks | ||
| Sayitaintso |
Blake I agree, but there is this misconception that all govt employees are lazy and living off the tit of the working man. That aint always the case, many are hard working average joes. And those jobs with no pension that you had...how about a 401K contribution?, or how about profit sharing? did they have those? FL state employees have neither. My point was (and this applies to anyone in any job) if you dont like what you're being paid for what you're doing; find another job, indentured servitude was outlawed long ago. One other thing that's pissing off my friends (and me to a point as taxpayer) is that when the governor came into office he brought in new staff for the governor's office and new department secretaries (no problem with that, thats what always happens) but then he exempted them from the state pay guidlines so that he could pay them a "market wage" that would be expected in the private sector based on the level of their education and work experience, kinda of double standard dont you think? | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Public compensation and benefits shouldn't be any better on average than the private sector. If you are willing to leave a private sector job to do the same thing for the public sector for more money and benefits, the public sector job is paying too much. | ||
| Boltrider |
A couple years ago, I signed a promissory note with San Jose PD. On the note was a check box with an explanation next to it informing me of membership into the police union. It was blank, but below the box was wording to the effect of membership in the union was a condition of employment. The box was blank as if I had a choice, but I really didn't if I wanted the job. From what I'm reading about these protests, other public sector contracts are similarly worded. Somewhere tied up in union membership for those kinds of jobs is mandatory dues, and that's where they get you. (Message edited by boltrider on February 23, 2011) |
