| Author | Message | ||
     Aesquire |
....I really cannot see how people cannot see it. See it? Very clearly. It's what I loath and fear. It's the most intolerant religions that are the world's problems today. Ask Theo Van Gogh. Ooops, how about Salman Rushdie? | ||
| Trojan |
Really? That's not what the participants say. Whose propaganda are you parroting? Or, if that's insulting.... gee? what's your source for that? There will be a million peope on the streets in cairo today protesting against their unjust and dictatorial government (who still manages to cling to power despite what is obviously a lost cause!). These are demonstrating about corruption and to get decent living standards rather than some vague religious dogma (40% of Egyptian people live on less than $2 per day yet it is a growing and oil rich economy!). The vast majority of demonstrators are not islamic fundamentalists but young people who want jobs and a decent standard of living for their families. Things that you and I take for granted in a modern democracy. If they get to have fair elections then of course there is a risk that a fundamentalist party (or memebers of) may be elected. That is democracy for you. Our job is to support the people and hopefully get a fair and free election that will return a democratic secular government in Egypt, not to try and impose our version of democracy or our 'friendly' candidate like we have done so unsuccessfully so many times in the past. Now, what IS "mainstream" Islam? Is it the people dancing in the streets to news of murder and betrayal? The estimated 200 million plus who think that it's ok to murder for their faith? Do you know or have you met many muslims? Mainstream Islam is the many many millions of people living peascefully around the world (who have no inclination to bomb, murder or rape anyone at all). I have islamic friends and neighbours who abhor what is being done in 'their name' by jihadists and fundamentalists minorities but who manage to get huge airplay that demonises their entire religion. We need to be very careful in the 'West' just what we listen to and believe to be the truth, because I can assure you that our rulers are just as keen and eager to use spin and misinformation as the other side are. I remember during the height of the Cold War I was stationed in Germany with the RAF. We were constantly told that the 5th Russion Guards Army were poised on the border of East Germany ready to invade us a the drop of a hat etc etc etc. Then in 1978 I went to Berlin and was able to go across into the East on duty and saw the parlous state of the Russian army and the poor teenage conscripts they had there. They were scared sh*tless of us and were told that we were poised on the border ready to invade them at the drop of a hat (sound familiar?). Somewhere in the middle is the truth, but it isn't what we necessarily get told or even want to hear very often when it doesn't suit us  (Message edited by trojan on February 01, 2011) | ||
| Aesquire |
So when the thousands of freedom loving Egyptians finally get their evil dictator overthrown and gain a democratic election free from his controlling & corrupt minions, ( which is the obvious and public relations aspect... ) they won't be stuck with a theocratic govt. run by misogynist, murderous Muslim Brotherhood thugs with a direct connection to the Iranian idea of a Caliphate? ( bet you ) Absolutely the majority of Muslims are not in active jihad to drag humanity as a whole into an 8th century hell of sharia law and submission to the ideas of preachers sickened by the sight of a female ankle. I note that in the U.S. the vast majority of people don't want to rule others against their will by force. ( such things as having armed men come to arrest you and jail you for not buying insurance from a company that bribed the politicians in charge for the privilege ) Only a small percentage of American Politicians are evil bastards that put themselves, the money they take in bribes, or the teachings of Karl Marx as priorities over the oath they swore to the Constitution. But, like "radical" islam, they are the source of most of the problems in the country. ( and, no surprise, the ones most likely to call for the end of the First Amendment. Truth is the enemy of evil. ) "mainstream" Islam has a problem in that the few who have been indoctrinated with the Great Satan as the root of all evil, still number in the millions. Only a few of those millions will ever be active jihadi, and they WILL get all the press, and the most evil will rule, since the whole setup is geared that way. Islam, like Maoist/Stalinist/Marxist is a system designed to have a few rule the masses. It's the REASON it exists. I ask again, what source do you have that says the Marxist Brotherhood isn't using this as a tool to gain power? | ||
| Trojan |
I ask again, what source do you have that says the Marxist Brotherhood isn't using this as a tool to gain power? What source do you have that says it is? And what exactly is 'The Marxist Brotherhood?' other than a term invented by neo con politians? Eygypt may decide by popular vote to elect a left wing government or it may decide to elect a penguin in a top hat for all I know. The important thing is that they should be allowed to have a choice of who they want to run their country fairly and without the massive corruption of the present US/UK/EU supported regime. It may have escaped your attention, but Marxism has pretty much died a death around the world because the experiment in communism simply didn't work. China and North Korea keep up the pretence but they were never truly Marxist states anyway (as soon as you put someone in charge you cease to be a marxist/communist state) and become a dictatorship. Not all left wing politicians are marxists. Not all right wing politicians are nazis. Not all muslims are bad people. Not all Christians are good people. Not everything we are told is true  | ||
| Hootowl |
No right wing politicians are Nazis. Nazis are leftie statist fascists who organized in union halls. | ||
| Trojan |
hmmm, a bit of confused political agendas maybe.... Fascists are right wing, lefties are left wing, statists are just ....statists na dcould be of either persuasion. Nazis faught running battles with communists (lefties) for control of Germany during the depression so don't let the name 'national Socialist' fool you. They had as much in common with socialists as Gengis Khan. | ||
| Blake |
>>> (A fundamentalist Christian is) Anyone who advocates violence/death as a part of their 'faith'. Huh? I guess we're safe then. Don't know of any. Kinda tough to be advocate violence and killing while adhering to the teachings of Jesus Christ. There is no such issue for the islamists. They are only doing as commanded by the koran. Matt, I agree 100% that most muslims are good peace-loving folks. Most WW-2 era Germans, even most German nazis, were good peace loving folks too. The situation with islamism today is analogous. But islamism is an even greater threat. It is a deadly mistake to view Islam as just a religion. Islam is totalitarianism. Read the koran. Consider history. Account for wars, genocide, terrorism. Ask your Muslim friends if they would oppose the institution of sharia law in Britain. What is their answer? Are you listening to what the islamists have been saying? Is Ahmedinejad just bluster and hot air when predicting victory for islamism, the destruction of Israel and establishment of a new caliphate? Pretty sure Patrick meant the "Muslim" Brotherhood. Matt, even counting the horrendously bloody history of islamists, religious intolerance is but a flyspeck compared to the major causes of armed conflict and genocide... marxism, territorial disputes, megalomaniacal despots, greed, ethnic hatred, expansion of empire. "Truth" you say? You claim to know truth? Yet you continue to tell us of the moral equivalence between islamism and Christianity? I would ask for reasoned debate. Please make your case. | ||
| Moxnix |
70% unemployment in Egypt. I guess the folks resent that and have time for a revolution. | ||
| Sayitaintso |
Blake, I'm not going to argue with you but: 500-1000 years ago christianity could go toe to toe with any religion when it comes to forced conversion etc. However, increases in literacy and people actually being able to read the Bible for themselves have gone a long way to improving things. Islam, not so much. | ||
| Hootowl |
I think Blake's point is that the New Testament doesn't prescribe death to those unwilling to convert and to those who decide to leave the church, whereas the Koran does. People twisting the Bible to their own ends and committing violence in the name of God is something else entirely. There's been plenty of that going on. Jesus never advocated violence against anyone. | ||
| Aesquire |
Yeah, I Meant the Muslim Brotherhood.... Sometimes the brain is a sentence ahead of the fingers, I'm a lousy typist. The current insurrection against the current "US/UK/EU supported regime" is run by the marxists and the muslim brotherhood. (MB, from now on) Which is a natural since the MB has always been part of the leftist/labour/unionist movement, a friend to the Nazi's and then the Soviets. (as were Saddam Hussein's clan, btw) Now I've heard much about the founding of the MB that does not match the Wiiki entry, so I assume I'm hearing some BS, and the wiki entry is partly bogus too. ( all political wiki entries are partly bogus ) I have no proof that Iran is the master planner behind the series of revolutions taking place around the Med. It would be a logical conclusion though. Some blame it on the wikileaks bozo's release of diplo mail "revealing the true extent of corruption in Tunesia". Perhaps. I don't get the idea that marxism is dead. Look at our own President, and the many marxist/leninists & soviet style communists he has hired to run the country as his overpaid and unvetted civil masters. Russia is looking to get a czar at this time (Putin, probably ) but China is feverishly committed to maintaining the status quo as far as leadership goes. N. Korea, I agree, is a cult of personality thing, with marxist style central planning. ( closer than most to true marxism and a bigger failure ) Now I won't quibble about marxism vs. fascism vs. socialism. No country ever was or ever will be pure marxist. His plan for society is, frankly, impossible for Humans on a level bigger than a commune or Kibutz. ( and usually very short lived. Pournelle's Iron Law kicks in. ) Marx believed that a "temporary committee" would be needed to run things until everyone had achieved the proper level of education in the dialectic and self awareness of the true path. Too bad no "temporary committee" has ever dissolved itself as Marx planned. Give bad people power, and they do not willingly give it up. ( the Real Reason George Washington should be a planetary hero. He turned down the power to be King. Rare, that. ) ElBaradei is firmly connected with the MB, with Iran, and other groups that mean you no good. ( like the UN ) Not all left wing politicians are marxists. true, some are maoists, but seriously... how left? I'm left of Blake and he doesn't consider Me a Marxist, I think....  Not all right wing politicians are nazis. nazi's are leftist, so, true! Not all muslims are bad people. not all are good....so what? It's not the "muslims" that are the problem, it's the evil men who USE Islam for evil Not all Christians are good people. duh! not all are bad either, so? "Christians" are not trying to kill me todayso I don't worry about them, much. The Jihadi's ARE. Not everything we are told is true Absolutely, so that's why I asked for your source on the revolution in Egypt NOT a marxist/islamist one. Everything I see indicates it is. | ||
| Aesquire |
BTW, while it's cute to hear that the Russian troops were told we were going to attack them, it's pretty normal for the Soviets to lie about everything. Believing a Communist is foolish. Their Religion states it's a blessing to lie if it advances Communism. ( as does some fatwas in Islam, though I think that's a misinterpretation of Mohammed's intent. Too bad I'm not a respected mullah. Alas, I don't read arabic and have not gone on Haj ) It makes no difference if the poor schmuck in a T-55 thinks England was going to invade Russia. Russia DID have nukes aimed at my house, ( and probably still do ) and DID and DO wage conquering war. (hint, they are not the good guys! ) You can't use the lies of the enemy to discount the truth. | ||
| Trojan |
Ask your Muslim friends if they would oppose the institution of sharia law in Britain. What is their answer? The majority of 'normal' followers of islam in the Europe/UK/USA are Absolutely opposed to any form of Sharia law. It is only the vocal minority that get to appear on TV shouting for this! Of course there are always very vocal minority groups in every religion/persuasion and they are the ones who tend to push their point the loudest. It is a mistake to believe that they represent the majority view. Egypt has always been a pious muslim nation but has managed to keep religion and government separate to a large extent even before Mubarek decided to become a dictator. Although there is a risk of an islamist government following free and fair elections that is a risk we and the Egyptian people should be allowed to take (just as we are in our democratic countries). Look at our own President, and the many marxist/leninists & soviet style communists he has hired to run the country The words of a true right winger I can't see any marxists/leninists in the US administration and I doubt if they would even be allowed to be there if they were! There may be a few left wing socialists in there but that is a world away from communism or marxism believe me! Advocating health care for millions of US citizens who cannot afford insurance isn't a marxist policy but simply common sense social politics surely, or is the only correct policy 'every man for himself?' | ||
| Aesquire |
Leaving aside the actual workability of socialized medicine, the current "plan" is not that, it's the deliberate deconstruction of a system that works, albeit with flaws. Anyone can get treatment without having money for emergency & life threatening illness. That's tax paid. Rather than streamline the current system, the new one adds 132 new agencies, thousands of bureaucrats, and no doctors. It's designed to destroy what we have and make the not yet functional new system the only choice. Or at least that's one interpretation. It could be they are just too incompetent to do anything but breed. As far as I can't see any marxists/leninists in the US administration and I doubt if they would even be allowed to be there if they were! Dude, this is the USA! we are not allowed to be so un PC as to imprison our Communist revolutionaries. Let's see. Van Jones, avowed Communist revo, Heck, most of the so called Czars appointed as "advisors" have serious marxist backgrounds, and leanings towards Eugenics and totalitarianism. ( and the "czars" have no Congressional oversight...even their pay is not disclosed ) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Jones Barack was the choice of the Communist Party of America, and his staff frequently gives speeches at CPA events. One of his Supreme Court choices was a member( management) of a racist, marxist group, La Raza. ( the race ) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice_Sotomayor Barack was raised, educated, and has worked closely with communists, revolutionary murderers, and has adopted as his religious faith "liberation theology", replacing his first religion, Islam. ( making him apostate, but I don't care about that ) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberation_theology Liberation Theology has it's actual roots in KGB plans to use the Catholic church to "marxify" Latin America. Look it up. | ||
| Trojan |
Barack was raised, educated, and has worked closely with communists, revolutionary murderers, and has adopted as his religious faith "liberation theology", replacing his first religion, Islam. ( making him apostate, but I don't care about that ) Hmmm, Obama's father was a Kenyan muslim (although not devout or practising) studying in the US, but his mother was a christian and brought him up as a christian in Hawaii didn't she? As far as I have read he has never been a practising muslim i his life. I have read all sorts of stuff trying to denigrate and run him down including that he isn't really a US citizen at all etc etc etc. Most if not all of this is just rubbishwritten or encouraged by republican sources keen to undermine his tenure as president. Working with left wing politicians, communists or socialists does not make you one. Liberation Theology has it's actual roots in KGB plans to use the Catholic church to "marxify" Latin America. Look it up. More right wing propaganda I'm afraid. The KGB actually had plans to get rid of all relious belief and were always extremely suspicious of all religion. Getting rid of religion proved just to hard for the Russians and Chinese communist governments so they reluctantly chose to try and ignore it as it didn't fit there core philosophy. Just one of the other reasons communism can never work. BTW, while it's cute to hear that the Russian troops were told we were going to attack them, it's pretty normal for the Soviets to lie about everything. Believing a Communist is foolish. You have to remember that our side lied to us for years about the Russian capabilities and intent too. The vast majority of 'front line' Russian trops were not dyed in the wool communists but conscripted teenagers who really didn't want to fight anyone and didn't have the tools to do so even if required. They were kept in line by political commisars to make sure they didn't desert or otherwise rock the marxist boat. If you look at Russian history (particularly their losses in WWII) you can appreciate why they were so keen to have a 'buffer zone' between the Russian border and the rest of Europe after the end of the war. Most of them were extremely scraed that the Nato countries would invade them led by the US. The ruling elite may have droned on about communist idology etc but for most of the population it meant nothing more than a very hard life (exactly the same as they had endured under the csars for hundreds of years). I'm not saying that I agree with what the Russians did immediately after WWII but I undersand what their motivation was for it. Anyway...my mum told me never to argue about religion or politics, so I'll stop now | ||
| Sayitaintso |
Hoot, I agree completely. | ||
| Moxnix |
The "Al Jazeera" TV revolution. Based in Qatar, run by an anti-Mubarak, anti-West staff, they have certainly been able to put a "bunch" of their viewers on the streets. | ||
| Sayitaintso |
For me at least, I would like to see the station on the air here. I like to see as many different points of view as possible and then make up my own mind and not be told what to think by some talking head. With Islam, in general, being such a chaotic force in the world I'd like to hear "their" point of view from their own mouths. Maybe that way the west will wake up. /http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thecutline/20110201/ ts_yblog_thecutline/will-u-s-cable-providers-carry -al-jazeera-english} | ||
| Moxnix |
Snow day, walked into my office to find my son watching this on my computer. Two thumbs up: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKI2tJ69Mg8&feature =related | ||
| Ezblast |
"Liberation Theology has it's actual roots in KGB plans to use the Catholic church to "marxify" Latin America. Look it up." Hogwash - and it is still taught - though still controversial - in a half dozen senior seminaries that I know of. EZ | ||
| Blake |
>>> The majority of 'normal' followers of islam in the Europe/UK/USA are Absolutely opposed to any form of Sharia law. That is good news. Not sure what portion of muslims qualify as " 'normal' followers of islam". But gee, why don't the 'normal' muslims in Saudi Arabia, or Iran, or for that matter in Iraq or Afghanistan stand up in opposition to the islamists and sharia law? But my question was not whether your Muslim friends were opposed to sharia law, but whether they would oppose it, meaning fight against it, demonstrate, march, be publicly vocal in opposing it? In most cases the unfortunate answer is "no" they would not. Sharia law is Islam; Islam is sharia law. Ask ANY islamic leader of note. A Muslim cannot separate on from the other. Do not wager your freedom on an alliance with "moderate" muslims. They, like the peace-loving nazis, will do nothing on their own to oppose their Islamist authorities. In this history is clear. | ||
| Blake |
Matt, Obama's mother was not Christian, nor was he raised as a Christian. Barry purportedly found Christ as an adult thanks to the work of the Reverend Jeremiah Wright. May God inspire our President to do his (God's) will. | ||
| Aesquire |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberation_theology After the Iron Curtain fell, some KGB guys who didn't get big payoffs came to the States with files to sell to the CIA. We know a lot more now. Who won the spy war? Wasn't us. Heck, most of the U.S. State dept. is still pretty marxist, and has been since before WW2. "tailgunner Joe" used awful tactics, but he was right about State. ( less so about other stuff.... though when you look at Hollywood..... ) With Catholicism a major force in Latin America the Soviets ( godless commies! ) wanting to slide in and get allies had to either discredit the Church ( the North American & European technique ) or subvert it. South & Central America got the subverted deal. Just google liberation theology kgb. I'll bet most is half truths passed around for years, but the basic truth is that this "demonic" perversion of religion ( the Popes word, not mine ) is a major force in badness all through South & Central America. http://frontpagemag.com/2010/03/31/world-council-o f-churches-the-kgb-connection/ I agree on the Russian desire for buffer space. After the Germans, the French, the Germans, the French, the Japanese, the Swedes, the Germans, invaded them, they have ample reason to be paranoid. Did I mention the Germans Invaded? I've been looking for a newer version of the 1938 Aleksandr Nevskiy thats as good as the original. Doubt I'll find it. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0029850/ Sure the poor Russian slobs in the Red Army had no desire to kill you. Sure they had political officers that kept everyone in line. Sure the Soviet Union was a disaster in progress from day one and slaughtered millions of it's own people, Starved millions more on purpose and I'm not even going to get into the millions more slaughtered in war, from the beginning of the Revolution to the African children handed an AK-47. After all that you HAVE to wonder why people are attracted to & defend marxism. Oh, well, idiots still kill themselves with heroin & speed even with the examples of Morrison & Belushi..... So Trojan, you have attempted to divert the conversation repeatedly, and I'm beginning to wonder if you have any source at all to support your contention that Egypt is not a MB & marxist revolution. I'll quit asking, since you quit the thread. Pity. I'm open to new ideas. I could be wrong. Could you? My mind can be changed by facts and logic. Can yours? and it is still taught - though still controversial - in a half dozen senior seminaries that I know of. One of the Presidents Spiritual Advisors is a Catholic/liberation theology Priest. His Pastor for 20 odd years was a Liberation theology preacher, black N. American variant. ( former muslim, but I think that's just a younger guys mistaken path.... better donations in a "christian" church. ) I'm amused by bozo's who think Comrade Barry was not born in Hawaii. True, no one living has seen his actual Birth Certificate, but that's not unusual in a family that moved even once, much less multiple times and countries. True, his parents lied about his citizenship ( U.S./Kenyan ) to get him into a better school in Indonesia. So what? There's a lady in this country got a week in jail for lying about her residence to get a better school for her kid. Besides, the birth announcement was in the paper.. You have to go really Manchurian Candidate loopy to believe his whole life was a plot to get him into power where he could destroy America. As far as religion goes. Father was Muslim. Son is Muslim. That's Islamic law. I could give a damn. I think stuff like that is maximum bogus. My only concern is some jihadi nut will kill him because by sharia law he is apostate and gets an automatic death sentence. He did spend time in a Madrasa, but Barack has clearly stated he was not religious until Rev. Wrights Church. I believe him. Most people don't think he gives a darn about Christianity at all. Probably true in a way. In his Church, salvation is not through Jesus, but through Social Justice. I haven't seen that phrase used except in a marxist revolutionary sense, have you? I'm hearing it in Egypt. | ||
| Aesquire |
Beat me to it Blake.  Obama has repeatedly stated he found religion in Chicago. I'd argue that Rev. Wright's definition of Christian is different than yours, but this isn't the thread. ( and we wouldn't argue much...) I'll believe Barack when he tells me he's not Muslim. I also believe him when he says he was raised Muslim. I also believe him when he says he wasn't religious until Chicago. All can be true. He just tells whoever he's with what he thinks they want to hear. He's good at that. ( as are many politicians ) | ||
| Trojan |
So Trojan, you have attempted to divert the conversation repeatedly, and I'm beginning to wonder if you have any source at all to support your contention that Egypt is not a MB & marxist revolution. There are plenty of pretty independant sources (including the BBC who have ongoing and very impartial and apolitical coverage of the Egyptian situation daily) They have actually got into the crowds and interviewed people on both sides of the argument in addition to opposition leaders and Egyptian commentators. There are christian clergymen amongst the demonstrators as well as islamists, students,children, workers, people who just want jobs and decent working conditions and a whole host of other groups and individuals. This is a popular uprising and therfore covers a huge cross section of the general population with many agendas and aims. It would be very very wrong to label this purely as a plot by the MB to overthrow the government in order to set up an islamist state. Of course as Egypt is a muslem country there is a chance that they will elect either an islamist government or a government with a sizeable islamist contingent. However my argument all along has been that this should be their choice, not ours! In the last 24 hours we have seen a sudden change in the situation in Cairo, where crowds of 'supposed' Mubarek supporters have suddenly come onto the streets to fight against the demonstrators (the first time we have seen violence of this magnitude in this conflict). However there is considerable evidence to show that these 'supporters' are actually police and other security services (who went mysteriously missing for 3 days) being bussed in to deflect attention from the original pro democracy aims and to keep Mubarek in power for longer  A sure case of wolves in sheepdogs clothing methinks (to quote another thread ) | ||
| Aesquire |
BBC, thank you. I'll see what the USA version has, when I get home from work. So the BBC thinks that the MB is taking advantage of a popular uprising? That still screws the Egyptians. I totally agree that the Egyptians are the ones who should chose their leaders. I'm very, very, annoyed that our Sec State and President are interfering, especially in the idiotic way they are. Obama has not only changed his apparent course a few times, but has, as fraking usual, screwed an ally, again. ( It doesn't matter if you like the current gov. in Egypt, we were allies, and now, we won't be, no matter who gets in charge. ) I'm really tired of Obama "throwing under the bus" anyone who doesn't fit his narrative of godlike wisdom and power. Poland, the Chech Republic, Taiwan, ( just wait ) and the English. Ipod full of his own speeches? Am I the only one who thinks he's a megajerk? I hope, ( but am pessimistic) that Egypt comes through this ok. | ||
| Cowboy |
I sure wish HE would follow his own advise and step down him self. Another country lost to the M B . | ||
| Trojan |
I hope, ( but am pessimistic) that Egypt comes through this ok. On that we agree, although I am more optimistic (I think!). What I wouldn't want to see though as a continuence of the knock on effect into Algeria (already pretty strictly islamic) and Morrocco (one of the most secular countries outside of Tunisia in the region. Having travelled extensively through Egypt, Tunisia, and briefly in Morrocco I can say that you would be hard pressed to find a friendlier bunch of people (regardless of religion) once you get outside the tourist zones, so I hope they can work it out for themselves and get the government they want. | ||
| Moxnix |
Matt is correct on the friendly attitude toward people, including Yanks, across N. Africa over the years. Lot of camping areas, camel burgers and pomme frits, and before the Tuareg took up banditry (again). A demitasse of strong coffee in the morning with the locals, handshakes all around with the right hand moving to your heart afterward. Interesting times. Hotels in the larger towns with roll down steel shades to keep the thieves out overnight. In Tangier, I gave a cabby a few bucks and asked him to locate some antique cars. He came back the next morning, took me to the "maison d' autos morte" for a look at the b-flat stuff. Then to a mid-30s Mercedes touring car in a garage, then to the villa of the man who had been the Packard dealer before WW2, who had two in the garage along with a pre-war Rolls. Too rich for me, at the time, but worth paying the cab driver for the day, with a handsome tip. I've still got photos of my Mercedes 170 diesel. Slower than the camel and donkey hitched together plowing fields, one for strength, one for endurance. The trick being, when one went out and about, don't talk about politics, religion or women. Guess they never heard of BadWeb. | ||
| Cowboy |
My 2 cents I have been close to the mid-east for the last 40 yrs one on one thay are friendly when you get 3 or more in a group the attitude changes as they are a fraid one will tell on the other they will do any thing not to be publicy assicated with us in fidels. |
