| Author | Message | ||
     Blake |
The very document justifying the birth of our nation states unequivocally that our unalienable rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness (freedom) come from God and that it is those very God-given rights that justified dissolving the rule over Americans by their then oppressors. So at least in America, denying God is denying the nation's founders unanimous justification for our right to be free and live. | ||
| Aesquire |
Blake even those of the founders that quietly were not believers in God, recognized that without faith in a power other/higher than yourself, the system would fail. Belief in the fallibility of man, yet the promise of better, is the foundation of American Government. We have Government because anarchy is hell. Nietzsche's new man, a naked wolf without hindrance of Gods or morality, is not a good neighbor. | ||
| 86129squids |
I just Wiki'ed "deists". | ||
| 86129squids |
I'm moist now. | ||
| Blake |
Patrick, That too! I don't know of any founders who did not believe in God. You referring to the deists? My understanding is that they indeed believed in a creator, just not in the God of the Bible, or any God who cared about human affairs, which is odd considering the very clear wording of the Declaration of Independence which they all signed. | ||
| Buellbozo |
Blake, Just a thought... Is it possible that the Deists signed that document, which didn't support their personal beliefs, because they were willing to set aside personal feelings for the Greater Good? That would seem to make their signing a noble act, not odd. Being an elected representative carries with it a moral dilema-"Do we want our reps to vote their conscience or their constituency"? That's a tough one. I offer no opinion either way. | ||
| Superdavetfft |
I'm not too proud of the fact I let myself be baited back into this absurdity but I can't stand idly by and watch you misrepresent the founders of our country. Try to do some homework next time before you claim a falsehood as truth. James Madison The fourth president of the United States . "Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." -letter to Wm. Bradford, April 1, 1774 . "The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries." -1803 letter objecting use of gov. land for churches . . John Adams The second president of the United States "As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?" -letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816 . "The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole cartloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity." "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it." . . . . . Thomas Jefferson The third president of the United States "It is too late in the day for men of sincerity to pretend they believe in the Platonic mysticisms that three are one, and one is three; and yet that the one is not three, and the three are not one. But this constitutes the craft, the power and the profit of the priests." - to John Adams, 1803 . "History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose." - to Baron von Humboldt, 1813 . "The priests of the superstition, a bloodthirsty race, are as cruel and remorseless as the being whom they represented as the family God of Abraham, of Isaac and of Jacob, and the local God of Israel. That Jesus did not mean to impose himself on mankind as the son of God, physically speaking, I have been convinced by the writings of men more learned than myself in that lore." - to Story, Aug. 4, 1820 . "I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature." . . "Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the Common Law." -letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, 1814 . . . George Washington . The father of this country was very private about his beliefs, but it is widely considered that he was a Deist like his colleagues. He was a Freemason. Historian Barry Schwartz writes: "George Washington's practice of Christianity was limited and superficial because he was not himself a Christian... He repeatedly declined the church's sacraments. Never did he take communion, and when his wife, Martha, did, he waited for her outside the sanctuary... Even on his deathbed, Washington asked for no ritual, uttered no prayer to Christ, and expressed no wish to be attended by His representative." [New York Press, 1987, pp. 174-175] Paul F. Boller states in is anthology on Washington: "There is no mention of Jesus Christ anywhere in his extensive correspondence." [Dallas: Southern Methodist University Press, 1963, pp. 14-15] . . Benjamin Franklin "Lighthouses are more helpful than churches." . "The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." -in Poor Richard's Almanac . Source - http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html | ||
| Davegess |
I think it is pretty hard to prove exactly what all of the founders believed in as far as religion. All we have is surviving words which cannot be everything they said felt and believed. Kind of a pointless discussion. | ||
| Blake |
Dave H. Again you present only those quotes that support your view, and you present them out of context as well. You might be surprised that I agree with many of the quotes you've offered. There is MUCH to criticize and object to in the history of the Christian Church and of those who have exploited it for their own designs. The Church indeed was co-opted by evildoers for a significant period. That continues to be the case all over the world in various cases. That is an indictment against man not the Christian faith. Satan himself sought to employ Christ for his own aims. Do you know that scripture? Unfortunately men of lesser character, some of evil character have embraced evil and used religion and their church to cloak it. This was foretold by Jesus himself. If it didn't happen, Jesus would be a liar. It was happening then, it has happened throughout history, it is happening now. You and all rightly object to that and condemn it. What you fail to realize is the evil acts of men are no more a condemnation of the Christian faith than the acts of drunk drivers are a condemnation of vehicular transport. I would say the same of atheists. The evil acts of some atheist are not an indictment against all atheists. Some of the most noble people I know are atheists. So back on topic, yes some of the founders were VERY wary of the power and influence of religion in America. It is the reason for the 1st amendment. They hated and opposed entirely the idea of a "Church of England" taking over in America. It is absolutely incorrect however to interpret their opposition to state controlled religion as opposition to religion itself. As Patrick notes, they indeed did very much recognize that without the morality and deference to a higher power, America would be doomed. Thus we have "In God We Trust" and "One Nation Under God", and the clear deference to our creator in the very founding document of our nation. | ||
| Blake |
>>> I think it is pretty hard to prove exactly what all of the founders believed in as far as religion. All we have is surviving words which cannot be everything they said felt and believed. >>> Kind of a pointless discussion. We can certainly know what they believed by their words and actions, all taken in context of course. I'm waiting to learn which of them were "atheists"? I've never heard that assertion before. | ||
| Blake |
Greogory (Buellbozo), >>> Is it possible that the Deists signed that document, which didn't support their personal beliefs, because they were willing to set aside personal feelings for the Greater Good? If they did, then they lied about the very core of our nation's justification for declaring independence. That would seem incredibly problematic and bewilderingly dishonorable. Maybe some were dishonorable liars willing to co-opt and accede to any doctrine which would help promote their desired agenda. Certainly the vast majority were not. Certainly George Washington was not. Jefferson was not. Adams was not. Franklin was not. Our Declaration of Independence invokes our "Creator", "God" and "Divine Providence". The founders could have simply argued that they were fed up with being oppressed by a tyrant and were thus breaking off their subjugation by him. They didn't. They offered clear justification for doing so. >>> That would seem to make their signing a noble act, not odd. If they did so in deference to the strongly held beliefs of their constituents, then you may have a point. If they did so only aiming to achieve their own agenda, then they are liars of the worst kind. Professing false belief, co-opting faith for purely personal aims, is that not the very evil which Dave H. rightly condemns? | ||
| Buellbozo |
I'll never know what the signers personal thoughts were at the time they signed the Declaration. If moral, political, economic, and spiritual compromises hadn't been made by the delegates at a personal level, the document they signed wouldn't exist. I'm enjoying these threads, learning from them, and don't want to muck them up. I don't always know when compromise is good and needed, and when it's chicken**** and hurtful. But I do know that it's necessary for society to work. | ||
| Blake |
...a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. | ||
| Blake |
Translating the DOI into simple modern dialect. IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776. (Message edited by Blake on January 19, 2011) | ||
| 86129squids |
Anybody into cockfighting? | ||
| Aesquire |
Catfights, yea! Pudding? But not Cocks, thank you. One simple thing. George Washington was a Freemason. That does not mean he was not a Christian. For a long time some branches of Masonry would not accept Roman Catholics, because they had taken an Oath that conflicted with the Masonic Oath. Today, not so much. Modern Masonry requires you to believe in a Supreme Being, but does not dictate the nature of your belief. For the same reasons the Founders believed that Belief was vital to morality and a good nation. ( otherwise, who do you give your oath to? Yourself? "So help me, me." ) Freemasonry today is, for the most part, a charitable organization, that does great good. Childrens Hospitals are a favorite cause. (Message edited by aesquire on January 19, 2011) | ||
| R100rs |
what oath is that? i think you have it backwards,someone can't be a catholic and be a mason. | ||
| Blake |
Catholics can't lay brick? | ||
| Aesquire |
It's an issue with rhythm. | ||
| R100rs |
Catholics can't lay brick?no,that's a Baptist union.  (Message edited by R100rs on January 20, 2011) (Message edited by R100rs on January 21, 2011) |
