| Author | Message | ||
     Eaton_corners |
Here is the quote I referenced. John Adams1798 — Address to the Military Category: Religion and Morality We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. A couple more for thought. John Adams1776 — letter to Zabdiel Adams Category: Religion and Morality Statesmen my dear Sir, may plan and speculate for Liberty, but it is Religion and Morality alone, which can establish the Principles upon which Freedom can securely stand....The only foundation of a free Constitution, is pure Virtue, and if this cannot be inspired into our People, in a great Measure, than they have it now, They may change their Rulers, and the forms of Government, but they will not obtain a lasting Liberty [R]eligion and virtue are the only foundations, not of republicanism and of all free government, but of social felicity under all government and in all the combinations of human society. | ||
| R100rs |
steve,i believe as you the cross of christ is the solution.saying that i have spent more than a few days side by side with jews,and several atheist p.e.t.a. members who knew a society that kills babies is headed for ruin like rome. | ||
| R100rs |
my parents couldn't "afford" me,or my sister born the next year ('57)we both had dresser drawers for cribs.by the time my sister rose ('62) arrived, dad had advanced enough in his trade for a crib.spent about eight hours at two different death factories today.most of the clients pulled up in late model suvs, talking on the newest smartphones.what we have today is a poverty of spirit. | ||
| Blake |
Steve, LOL, there's more "Steves" in here than I knew. My request for continued participation was meant for the managing director of Lavin Yurazov Racing, Mr. Steve Slaughter. I sure do appreciate your commentary too. Excellent stuff! Thank you. The Adams quotations have gone onto the phone for quick reference. I have a growing collection of just such quotes from our nation's founders. They come in handy when confronting no-nothings on the issues. | ||
| Xl1200r |
By my estimates, I'm killing anywhere between 100 to 400 human life forms on a daily basis. I wipe them up with a tissue and toss them in the trash. Anyone who honestly believes teaching abstinence is a viable solution needs to wake up. Having sex is not only something that we're genetically programmed to do, and do often, but it just plain feels good - like drinking beer, speeding in your car or even partaking in any number of illicit substances. You can say it's wrong and to not do it all you want, but people are still gonna do it, regardless of if they're ready or not. Valuing human life over that of other forms of life on the basis that other humans provide benefit is almost disgustingly selfish. I have ZERO interest or inclination to find common ground with anyone who seeks to blame those promoting morality for the horrendous evil of abortion. The Catholic Church promoting morality? That's a good one. When anything invading our domain constitutes a serious threat to our health and well-being, we are justified in defending ourselves. Merely playing devil's advocate, but I think it's clear how an unwanted pregnancy could be aligned with this. And before anyone wants to label me some progressive baby killing hippy, as a whole I do not agree with abortion, but I fully acknowledge it's needs in some situations. As a form of birth control? No. But it seems a better alternative than to bringing an unwanted life into an unstable situation, for any number of reasons. | ||
| 99savage |
In the course of a long life all the people I have met strongly opposed to abortion have been female. Most of the people males I know are sympathetic to abortion, to varying degrees. In the media the debate is framed boys trying to restrict the rights of girls. Realize that using personal observations to draw conclusions is dangerous. Simple question: Does anybody have any reliable statistics on "Abortion - always approve/sometimes approve/never approve" broken down by sex? | ||
| Eaton_corners |
Blake, Steve's are more common than even I knew. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Anyone who honestly believes teaching abstinence is a viable solution needs to wake up. Having sex is not only something that we're genetically programmed to do, and do often, but it just plain feels good - like drinking beer, speeding in your car or even partaking in any number of illicit substances. You can say it's wrong and to not do it all you want, but people are still gonna do it, regardless of if they're ready or not. You make it sound like hiccups. Humans aren't dogs or red butted baboons. Humans have the capacity to reason, to see the end result of actions taken. It's not like you trip and fall and accidentally impregnate someone. TWO people have to make a conscious decision to engage in sexual activity. Consider that decision making process as similar to that of the folks in a missile silo. Both have keys and both have to agree that release is authorized and turn the key. If one doesn't agree, the missile doesn't launch. People have other urges, to murder, to rape, to steel. We don't just throw our hands up and say "oh well, it felt good and they couldn't help it". Having sex ISN'T wrong. It's BEST reserved between a committed husband and wife where the potential for the natural outcome, children, can best be provided for. Outside of marriage, the natural outcome of sex is less desirable. Abstinence IS best, but if you CHOOSE to engage in sex, pregnancy MAY be the outcome. It's a consequence of the CHOICE made by TWO free willed people. Part of the decision making process is the understanding that birth control doesn't always work, and a pregnancy or life long STD may result. The main issue here is that people want to do whatever they want to do without the consequences that come with their actions. This mindset is rampant in our society and is corrosive. Valuing human life over that of other forms of life on the basis that other humans provide benefit is almost disgustingly selfish. The PINNACLE of disgusting selfishness is seeking to do whatever the hell you want at the expense of another human life. I'm assuming by your statement, you are an advocate for wholesale cannibalism? | ||
| Cityxslicker |
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| Xl1200r |
Humans have the capacity to reason, to see the end result of actions taken. Capacity and willingness are not one in the same. Deciding to engage in sexual activities in the throws of passion isn't much different than deciding to operate a vehicle while under the influence. It's easy to to play quarterback the day before or the morning after and say, "That wasn't the best idea", but when you're in the middle of it, it's not the same. The PINNACLE of disgusting selfishness is seeking to do whatever the hell you want at the expense of another human life. I agree, but I hope you're not implying that our two statements are mutually exclusive. My main point in that was: What good is the hunter without the game to hunt? The farmer without the seeds to sew? The contractor without the trees with which to build? Each person, and humanity as a whole, relies in its entirety on the existence of other forms of life, be they animal or plant, and without them the entire human race would cease to exist and would never have gotten a start in the first place. The only thing a fellow human can do for you without some other form of life is to think or physically do something for you. I'm assuming by your statement, you are an advocate for wholesale cannibalism? I'm really not sure on how you reached this conclusion. Other than that, I do agree with the rest of your post, including your opinion on the pinnacle of selfishness. BTW, much of my prior post was tongue in cheek. | ||
| Just_ziptab |
"They're made out of meat".....one of my favorite weird ones...........  | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Capacity and willingness are not one in the same. Deciding to engage in sexual activities in the throws of passion isn't much different than deciding to operate a vehicle while under the influence. It's easy to to play quarterback the day before or the morning after and say, "That wasn't the best idea", but when you're in the middle of it, it's not the same. Why is it that sex is the only activity governed by passion for which society provides and condones an escape for the consequences? Could the same not be said for murder? "I was in the throws of passion and could not be held responsible for my actions." Passion is no excuse for willful abrogation of reason. I agree, but I hope you're not implying that our two statements are mutually exclusive. My main point in that was: What good is the hunter without the game to hunt? The farmer without the seeds to sew? The contractor without the trees with which to build? Each person, and humanity as a whole, relies in its entirety on the existence of other forms of life, be they animal or plant, and without them the entire human race would cease to exist and would never have gotten a start in the first place. The only thing a fellow human can do for you without some other form of life is to think or physically do something for you. What you describe is STEWARDSHIP. I in no way advocate the wholesale slaughter of animal and plant life simply because we can. Conversely I don't advocate the deification of "nature" over human beings. We are the pinnacle of nature created in God's image with dominion over and responsibility for nature. As such, we are tasked with it's care. There are not two options: Kill everything that lives or kill nothing. I'm really not sure on how you reached this conclusion. I was trying to understand the specific nature of your position. There are some that advocate that humans are no more precious than fish or birds or cows. As such, being of equal value, people should be as eligible for consumption as any of these creatures. BTW, much of my prior post was tongue in cheek. Without emoticons, I take everything at face value. Besides, you know I don't have a sense of humor. I'm a conservative. | ||
| Xl1200r |
I never said people should be exempt from the consequences of their actions, I was merely illustrating why abstinence is not a reliable method, in my opinion, of course. But perhaps you bring up a good point in that, this whole conversation spreads far beyond abortion and should encompass mankind's apparent lack of regard for the actions we make (this is something I've held as truth since I was a teenager). Perhaps you made that very point before, I've admittedly merely skimmed over many of the posts in this thread. I agree that we are tasked with nature's care and imposed with domination over it (I'm reluctant to use the word 'blessed'), but the pinnacle? Perhaps I'm just too humble, but again - we have the capacity to be the pinnacle but yet, as a whole, proven to be such. Thanks for clarifying the cannibalism thing - I wouldn't suggest people eating people anymore than lions eat other lions (I realize there are exceptions to this rule in nature, but they are a rare occurrence). And for the record, I think you're a funny guy (no emoticon, take it at face value). | ||
| Slaughter |
They're made out of meat... Soylent Green... I'm liking this direction now. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
When the end comes, I'm eating the vegetarians first. They are low in fat and easy to kill. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
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| Blake |
>>> Valuing human life over that of other forms of life on the basis that other humans provide benefit is almost disgustingly selfish. Life is based upon selfish desires. The birds, snakes, mice and bugs would much rather I not mow my lawn. I'm selfish. I want a pest free, clean, hygienic yard, around my abode, so I mow it and rake the leaves when they fall. Otherwise the critters encroach and multiply. If you prefer to defend your family rather than allow them to be exploited and run rough-shod for the benefit of others, you are being selfish. Looking out for that which is most dear and most important to us is selfish. EVERY species is selfish within its own ranks in regards to other species. That is THE law of nature. If it weren't survival would be near impossible. Chaos would ensue. My own personal belief encompass a LOT more than mere survivalism, but I was trying to answer the question without injecting God into the answer. Admittedly, it is difficult. If Steve S. could muster the will, he might offer a good perspective on the issue. Interesting discussion!   | ||
| Blake |
I cannot rebutt the rest any better than Jeremy already has. Nice.  XL, have you never been to the brink of passion and stopped or were stopped short of potential procreation? I have. It is not near as difficult as many make it out to be. Education and cultural reinforcement in support of abstinence is vital. Throwing our hands up in denial that abstinence is a vital part of the solution to unwanted pregnancy is wrong. The other part of the solution is to hammer it into our young ladies that respect for themselves and their very personal sexual attributes is paramount to attracting a good man, that they are FAR more valuable than mere sexual titilation. We must teach them to value themselves and their sexuality such that they view it as the incredibly precious gift that it indeed is, one that is best saved for only the most deserving and honorable of men. All the rest should be sent packing. Our popular culture is teaching the exact opposite of that. We now have teenage girls en'masse getting boob jobs. It's despicable how our culture has degraded women. Brittany Spears went from mouseketeer to dope-headed, crotch flashing, potty-mouthed slut in what, five years? How does that happen??? How is it that we as a culture embrace and glorify it? If that doesn't change. We are truly doomed. | ||
| 86129squids |
You want a "a pest free, clean, hygienic yard"? Weirdo. Just get some astroturf! On a serious note- this may be one of the most "existential" threads yet... IMHO, good stuff. As humans, having language both defines us and handicaps us. See "Labeling theory". (Mere words/claptrap from someone once called "liberal"...) | ||
| Blake |
I write a paragraph about sexual titillation and you're stuck on the hygienic yard? And you're calling me weird? | ||
| Spdrxb |
Blake -I see hints of my post reply in there...  Even though my point was taken incorrectly. Its ok I'm out of my realm in this discussion.However it makes you think,and why I posted in the first place.Thinking and posting at the same time often results in posts that you say later.. oops thats not what I meant.  | ||
| Spdrxb |
(insert brittany spears lyric here) Interesting conversation I will just continue reading now. | ||
| 86129squids |
That paragraph was about sexual titillation? HHHHHuuhuhuhhhuuhuhuh HHHuhhhuhuhuhhhhuh You said sex. And tit. Some moderator...   | ||
| Cityxslicker |
On the other side note you will explain to me why I had to go to three surgeons and two counselors before I could get snipped at 18?!?!? Its my g-d choice, my damn body, If I dont ever want to f'n have kids, then lets make it a bit flippin easier to get the spiggot shut off. 'oh you'll change your mind' Really? have you met my family. I doubt the happy hell I will, now are you gonna cut it or do I have to PAY another doctor. it was essentially the conversation. Spay and neuter, opt out. | ||
| 86129squids |
You know, City- I used to travel I40W back to Nashville quite a bit- there used to be a billboard, advertising a doc somewhere out in Texas that would hook all the plumbing back up- "vasectomy reversal" IIRC.... Just sayin. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
wild horses couldnt drag me to breed. besides, its not like there is a population shortage. in a hundred years from now, there will be no trace that my side of the family was here. I find that gradifying. | ||
| Xl1200r |
Blake - Re: valuing human life over all other life - Perhaps I should have used the term"short-sighted" instead of selfish. Your comments are all true and I agree with them (although I have snakes and mice, et al, living in my backyard and they don't bother nobody), but I still don't believe them to be a reason to value them any less. Are not all of God's creatures God's creatures? XL, have you never been to the brink of passion and stopped or were stopped short of potential procreation? I have. I also have not. Sometimes it's bitten me, sometimes not. Why does your post make it out that it's the woman's fault for not valuing herself enough? Why is the man in this situation not to blame? I feel there may be a "chicken or the egg" situation in there. I was prepared to share some pretty personal stuff, but I've though better of it and would rather not open the doors to create any real animosity here. Rather, let's just say in short that limiting sexual partners to only marriage, or even long-term, loving relationships, while desirable in most cases, is not in all, for the betterment of the individuals involved and for the relationship as a whole. I can tell you from personal experience that bedroom chemistry is extremely important and if I had ended up marrying the girl I was engaged to at one time, I would have been a miserable sap because of it in not too long. | ||
| Blake |
Brian, I don't understand your staunch aversion to procreating. Your family may include some less than desirable characters, but you sir are exceptional. Your genes are worth propagating amigo. Nice to know that if you ever do have a change of heart, there are options to turn your baby-makin' switch back on. | ||
| Hootowl |
The switch is still on, it's just that the system is operating in closed-loop mode. | ||
| Blake |
XL, >>> Why does your post make it out that it's the woman's fault for not valuing herself enough? Why is the man in this situation not to blame? I feel there may be a "chicken or the egg" situation in there. You have a point, however I'd offer that it is not reasonable to imagine that men are able to alter their natural attraction to female physical attributes. The more revealed, the more titillating/enticing. It is akin to foreplay. The female has little trouble covering and behaving respectfully towards herself. Failing to do so is in my view willfully inviting interest in that which is being advertised, the superficial sexuality. She is in effect giving away for free what should be guarded and reserved as HIGHLY valuable and intended only for those very special and truly deserving. I'd say the same for men. In short, nature is tough to change; personal character and self-respect are easily taught, easily encouraged. Take any junior high school today. If the teachers and other students took to ridiculing every girl who dressed overtly provocatively "slutty looking" and the like. Soon there would be no more of it. The scarlet letter works. But no, we cannot hurt anyone's feelings, we must tolerate everything outrageous short of violent crime.  |
