| Author | Message | ||
     Sifo |
I don't even know what to say... 39 Percent Of NYC Pregnancies Result In Abortion | ||
| Fahren |
If the Catholic church hadn't spent so much time, money and energy opposing birth control, perhaps the number of abortions would be lower. If our current economic model didn't put such a strain on the lowest economic strata of society, perhaps families at those levels could have more of a chance of forming and holding together to support children. Countries, as well as areas within this country, in which birth control and health care are more readily available and affordable, and in which there exists less of an economic chasm between have's and have-not's, and where the quality and level of education are higher across the board generally face neither the above crazy number of abortions, not as many unwanted pregnancies in the first place. Have you been to The Bronx? It would be great to see that percentage drop dramatically, but it's not going to work simply to preach abstinence, to oppose birth control, and to offer counseling after conception. | ||
| Xdigitalx |
how about... thank you? maybe one of them would have turned into the grandson of sam. but then again... one of them could have been the new Messiah. (sorry, must be the weather) | ||
| Sifo |
Blame it on the Catholics? Really? Do you really think a high abortion rate is coming from Catholics that refuse to use birth control? Do they really only teach abstinence in the NY public school system? Somehow I have my doubts. Link it to how much money the rich have? That's a big stretch. Just limit the wealth people can have and you will bring down the abortion rate. Come on! We are becoming an amoral society. You seem to see the fix is to have less morals. I don't get it at all. (Message edited by SIFO on January 07, 2011) | ||
| Teeps |
How did we ever get to this point? Incrementalizm. The tonic of liberal thinkers. | ||
| Blake |
>>> If the Catholic church hadn't spent so much time, money and energy opposing birth control, perhaps the number of abortions would be lower. Just wondering, how much time, energy and money did they spend opposing birth control? My take is that they simply state their view on the matter, which doesn't require any money, or much effort. >>> If our current economic model didn't put such a strain on the lowest economic strata of society, perhaps families at those levels could have more of a chance of forming and holding together to support children. It's not "families" who are murdering their unborn babies; it is irresponsible young women. >>> Countries, as well as areas within this country, in which birth control and health care are more readily available and affordable, and in which there exists less of an economic chasm between have's and have-not's, and where the quality and level of education are higher across the board generally face neither the above crazy number of abortions, not as many unwanted pregnancies in the first place. Have you been to The Bronx? Yes I have, briefly on a couple occasions. Fifty years ago this horrific situation did not exist. What changed since then? What policies and ideology have transformed the inner cities of America into the hopeless cesspools of today? This despicable situation was fostered and promoted by a horribly misguided ideology, the imposition of the entitlement mentality upon people vulnerable to just such evil >>> It would be great to see that percentage drop dramatically, but it's not going to work simply to preach abstinence, to oppose birth control, and to offer counseling after conception. Abstinence does indeed work. In fact it is the only method of birth control that is 100% effective. A society that embraces promiscuity is doomed to suffer the consequences. We ALL know in our hearts and minds that irresponsible behavior has consequences, and we ALL know in our conscience that THIS is pure evil. | ||
| Delta_one |
I would put it more on Planned Parenthood than the catholic church. | ||
| Fahren |
Tom, you mis-read me entirely (the curse of the interwebz). I don't blame the Catholics, I just find their position hypocritical: they oppose birth control, an option that reduces unwanted pregnancies, while they cry out about how terrible it is that there are so many abortions. Offering counseling before the horse is out of the barn, so to speak, would be more effective than offering counseling to already-pregnant teens. Now, having said that, the pope isstarting to show signs of loosening up on the birth control opposition. I don't mean at all that high rates of abortions are coming from Catholics not using birth control. They do not only teach abstinence, perhaps they are not naive enough to even try teaching it in inner-city NY schools. Unfortunately, as I tried to note, the level of education in far too many New York schools is woefully low, and I was attempting to compare the City's problems with public education to other areas of the country and the world where education is better, and unwanted pregnancies are generally lower. Nothing to do with how much money the rich have, either. It's more about the difficulty of establishing and maintaining strong families when economic and social conditions are so extreme for the lower economic strata of urban society. The Bronx is very, very far from the "poor" of, say, The Waltons. The narcissistic messages thrown out by TV and pop culture media in general don't encourage strong family values, either. I don't want to come across as excusing the people involved, as if it were entirely the fault of their circumstances and their environment, but neither of those help reduce the problem, that's for sure. Again, nothing to do with how rich the rich are, more about how very poor the poor are. On an aside, however, if you think the Wall Street bankers of Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan Chase, et. al, behave morally, well, that's another discussion. Blake, you are being judgmental and condescending to blame the young women alone as irresponsible. (Message edited by fahren on January 07, 2011) | ||
| Blake |
>>> Incrementalizm. The tonic of liberal thinkers. Also known as... Progressivism. >>> I would put it more on Planned Parenthood than the catholic church. Infinitely more so, and more so the blame should be rightly placed upon the despicable fools who legislated from the bench their "finding" that the murder unborn children is a constitutionally protected right. This issue more than any other is one that most concerns me. By itself, it screams out the glaring difference between the ideologies of the two political parties in America today. | ||
| Fahren |
Blake, what you wrote does not even appear to allow for any common ground on which to base a discussion. Did anything I wrote state that I think abortion is fine and dandy? Or do you just assume that, because I am not ready to condemn young, poor, poorly educated, media-brainwashed inner-city girls without also looking at other factors involved that have helped create this problem? | ||
| Kenm123t |
Their lack of upward mobility is directly linked to the out of wedlock births. Liberals have done what they intended destroy the family and blame it on moral people So your point is teaching morality causes immorality | ||
| Blake |
>>> I just find (the Catholic) position hypocritical: they oppose birth control, an option that reduces unwanted pregnancies, while they cry out about how terrible it is that there are so many abortions. It only seems hypocritical if you refuse to listen to the reasoning behind their views. They oppose evil and view promiscuity as evil because it is destructive to society and prosperity and all that is good among men. They view birth control as putting hedonism and self-interest ahead of productive moral living. You can disagree with that view, but it sure as heck isn't hypocritical. The Catholic church is not backing down from their position opposing birth control at all, merely clarifying that in that specific circumstance it is a lesser of two evils. The pope stated that the use of a condom would be less abhorrent than if not used when employed to prevent knowing transmission of deadly STD. >>> I don't want to come across as excusing the people involved, as if it were entirely the fault of their circumstances and their environment, but neither of those help reduce the problem, that's for sure. So you are saying that poor folks are less likely to behave morally? I cannot disagree more strongly. I'd say that people who have been told over and over again that they are victims owed much by society, then immersed in a system that actually rewarded irresponsible behavior... I'd say THAT kind of culture might be inclined to suffer predictable consequences, namely rampant irresponsible behavior. Plenty of poor folks live in the country. They don't suffer such evils anywhere near on the same scale as those mired in the inner cities. | ||
| Sifo |
I find it very difficult to believe that a person who can manage to successfully obtain an abortion really needs to be educated on the fact that a rubber can prevent an unwanted pregnancy. This would be assuming that NYC even had an abstinence only education program. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/03/education/03abst inence.html | ||
| Fahren |
What kind of people are we here? Are we to take seriously a claim that anyone in the US, nay, the world, really, truly goes out and intends to "destroy the family?"!!!? How do you really see other people?} | ||
| Blake |
Chris, >>> Blake, what you wrote does not even appear to allow for any common ground on which to base a discussion. I have ZERO interest or inclination to find common ground with anyone who seeks to blame those promoting morality for the horrendous evil of abortion. Maybe that was not your intent, but that is exactly what your opening post reads like. It's an issue that REALLY outrages me. I hate abortion with all my soul and being. It is the incarnation of the most horrendous evil on this earth that I know. It is NOT above my pay grade. | ||
| Fahren |
"I find it very difficult to believe that a person who can manage to successfully obtain an abortion really needs to be educated on the fact that a rubber can prevent an unwanted pregnancy. This would be assuming that NYC even had an abstinence only education program." You are right, Tom. There is no single reason for this to have reached this point, these statistics. I don't know about you, but I have heard plenty of guys, and not even inner-city guys, talk about how they don't want to wear a condom. Again, with circumstances like that, is it fair to put the blame solely on the girl, calling her "irresponsible?" I don't think the way to finding a solution is to label things so simplistically, is all. | ||
| Fahren |
Blake, I would much rather we dialogue about seeking solutions rather than apportioning blame. My post may have come across as blaming, and for that I apologize if it was read that way,but also, from what I hear you say, you may be bringing a lot of emotion to your reading as well. | ||
| Blake |
Chris, Do you believe that evil exists? Do you believe that the enemies of America were above engaging in covert efforts to harm America? Would you be surprised to learn that their efforts to subvert and destroy that which made America so incredibly strong were so effective that they took on a life all their own, so much so that even after hostile attitudes towards America largely subsided, their subversive institutions thrived, expanded and went mainstream? Would you be surprised to learn that much of America and our popular culture are promoting the subversive agenda of a long reconciled enemy? Are you denying that the abortion industry, @#$^ing INDUSTRY of murdering unborn babies, doesn't have a vested interest in fostering every more abortions? Some folks are darn quick to demonize corporations in America. In this case, it is 100% justified. Planned Parenthood, the most disgusting euphemism known to man, a BILLION dollar industry. | ||
| Sifo |
I don't blame the Catholics... Catholics have very little to do with this. The highest rates of abortions are among blacks. They are predominately NOT Catholic. Why complain about the divide between rich and poor if that isn't the problem? The divide of have's and have not's has nothing to do with it at all. Being poor is a valid issue, but has nothing to do with an income divide. BTW, I have plenty of issues with the Catholic Church, but they are not hypocritical on this issue. They aren't the problem on this issue either. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
look it is wholey avoidable and easily remedied. There is really, barring interferece from aliens and shadow government labs and errant rapists, only one way to get pregnant. Having Sex ! you didnt wake up, have toast, get coffee, and stub your toe and wind up f'n pregnant. You spred your legs and had somebody ride for all it was worth in a monkey bite spasmotic convulsionary penetration mongering 4.7 minutes and BING ya pregnant. was the church there with pom poms ? Nope was the dems there with snacks and a treat? nope was the reps there critiquing your dismount and style? nope. if you cant manage to keep your junk in your own respective pants, then do us all a favor and go get sterilized, spayed, neutered. Because you obviously dont have the for thought to control your urges, an grasp of the cost analysis of kids and their impact and quite frankly we dont need any more of that ilk. why does everybody want to take the responsibility away from the two monkeys that were doing it and blame SOCIETY for the problem. dont like abortion, dont have one. Dont want kids, dont have them it really is that simple. nipped and tucked since 87. I am the last of my line. my family tree dies with me. | ||
| Aesquire |
The abortion program is, viewed from 2 different viewpoints, a great success. From the point of view of conservatives, it's killing progressive babies en masse. If you are not compassionate, big win. Millions of children will not be raised to be leeches. From the viewpoint of the founders of Planned Parenthood, it's killing lots of babies of the "lesser breeds", and making Amerika more racially pure. For those who wonder.... my first example is sarcastic, rude, and parroted from AM talk radio. Not my personal feelings. The second example is accurate, serious, and also, not my personal feelings. My take on Abortion is... If you don'r like it, for moral or any other reasons, you should be for safe and effective birth control. If your Church does not like birth control for the simple reason that birth control reduces the number of members of the Church, ( I haven't seen another reason that I believe ) then you have a quandary. I have no problem with teaching that abstinence is a good way to keep from getting pregnant or other std's.  ( or being punished by pregnancy, as our Prez. puts it. Rather interesting morality there, eh?) After all one of the things you can do to improve the odds of your life not sucking include waiting until after high school and getting married before you have children. Abstinence teaching alone is, however, not a viable solution. | ||
| Slaughter |
I'm in favor of post-partum abortions up to say... 216 months. I'm also in favor of making abortions MANDATORY in some cases. | ||
| Sifo |
Blake, I would much rather we dialogue about seeking solutions rather than apportioning blame. Before solutions can be realistically reached you do need an understanding of the problem. That would be how/why this is happening. Call it blame if you wish, but it's a necessary step. | ||
| Blake |
>>> is it fair to put the blame solely on the girl, calling her "irresponsible?" I don't think the way to finding a solution is to label things so simplistically, is all. Except for rape, it is the woman's choice to allow unprotected sex. Yes, it is also the man's. It takes two, but only one suffers the direct personal effect. That one must then bear the burden of maturity and responsibility, for she is the one who then is uniquely in the position of deciding whether or not to have murdered the unborn child. The man has ZERO say in that. You want to talk solutions, I'm all over that. How about we allow our schools to teach abstinence? How about instead of glorifying we return to condemning promiscuity and pre-marital sex? How about we make it a SERIOUS crime to impregnate and abandon a woman? How about we stop telling folks they are victims entitled to live off the government tit? How about we demand accountability from teachers? How about we get more school principals like Mr. Joe Clark, portrayed wonderfully by Morgan Freeman in the excellent movie Lean On Me. (Message edited by blake on January 07, 2011) | ||
| Fahren |
Understanding, yes. Blame, and the concomitant judgments, not so necessary. | ||
| Blake |
>>> Abstinence teaching alone is, however, not a viable solution. Why not? If you are saying that no solution will be 100% effective, I agree. But to say it isn't "viable" seems an exaggeration. | ||
| Blake |
>>> Blame, and the concomitant judgments, not so necessary. 50,000,000 American babies have been murdered. "Blame" accurately placed is warranted, needed, absolutely vital to ending the holocaust. Overturn Roe versus Wade. | ||
| Blake |
>>> If your Church does not like birth control for the simple reason that birth control reduces the number of members of the Church, ( I haven't seen another reason that I believe ) then you have a quandary. "I haven't seen another reason that I believe" Look harder. There is strong logic there. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
been coming like a train since Wattenbergs Birth Dearth of 87. | ||
| Fahren |
I only brought up the Catholics because Timmy Dolan was the main event in the news story. I think it's great that he reaffirms the church's offering of counseling from the archdiocese. Not the most effective group to reach out to inner city blacks, but of course it's the right thing to do. I would like them to go even farther. The world would also be better off without TV, its illusionist distractions from the problems we face, as well as its pop culture of narcissism and poor, even subversive role models. Of that I am sure. Blake, I do not disagree with a single one of your proposals. |
