| Author | Message | ||
     Ft_bstrd |
Oh, and Gixxer Corner has a neat little reminder to stay off the centerline when completing your photo maneuver:  Hitting one of those is like whacking yourself in the knee with a hammer. | ||
| Geforce |
Phillip, you need to come up to Hallett Raceway with me one weekend and I'll work with ya. I didn't start really getting comfortable on my 1125r until about the 2nd track day. It was never a matter of getting my knee down it was always the placement of my hips and general body positioning. After getting some good instruction from a control rider I was able to start pushing my limits and comfort zone until it became second nature. In my head, it feels like a bolt being torqued by a ratchet. Every turn gains ground, then you have the clicks as you move out of the corner, then back into tightening with the next corner. At a track, you will be able to get comfortable with the track itself and you can focus entirely on your riding. On the street, you don't build that relationship. Now, I have started working on smoothing out my controls. Braking harder, later and trailing that brake into the corner. Some riders can work on all this at once, I like to focus on one thing at a time, for me it's a hobby and a heap of fun!  | ||
| Lemonchili_x1 |
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| Sifo |
In 2009 I had my first trip to Deals Gap. I was just trying to get a handle on the lines when I got behind some guy on a GSXR 600. He was riding nice and smooth and it helped me a bunch, not going fast between the corners just keeping it smooth. The part that seems odd to me is that while I was hanging off the bike some, I was nowhere near getting my knee down. The guy on the GSXR OTOH had is knee down in probably over half the turns. I've never really understood the difference between me and him on that run through Deals, but it made a good point to me. Just because someone has a knee down doesn't mean they are fast. Anyone have insight into this? Is the difference in the bikes? The rider? | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
If my knee is touching the road, it's because I'm in the process of falling off! I have an M2 which is virtually the same as your X1 & a SuperTT which is more or less identical to your XT. On the M2 I've touched down the pegs once or twice & I had to cut down the kickstand rubber as it was grounding out a lot. On the TT, with a totally stock setup & Scorpion Syncs, my chicken strips on the rear are about 1-2mm & about 8-10mm on the front. The TT is way less work to ride than the M2 & goes where I "think" it rather than where I "muscle" it with the tuber. So far I've touched nothing down on the XB, I think it's because it's a little taller & narrower than the tuber. Knee down is for the track, ride safely at your own pace & enjoy your riding. If you're worrying that you're not riding as fast as you might, you're surely not riding as well as you should be. A thing I've found that has helped me is this. You know how some days, you can go out for a ride, especially when out with good friends you trust & everything just goes seamlessly. Well what I do is rewind parts of it in my head & work out what I did/didn't do differently than other times that made it so much better. I know exactly where my bike's limits are, They're between my ears! I not infrequently get told I ought to get this bike or that bike because it's bigger, better, faster, more, whatever. My reply is always the same , I wouldn't realistically be any quicker on another bike as the limiting factor is me. The more you ride the more confidence you'll get & easier it becomes, don't sweat it. | ||
| Geforce |
"Anyone have insight into this? Is the difference in the bikes? The rider?" When a rider shifts his body position and begins to hang off, the motorcycle will not lean over as much. (Speed, radius of corner all matter) The same rider can take the same corner, at the same speed under the same conditions and not hang off at all and the bike will be forced to lean over more with increased steering effort. The point is, hanging off the bike isn't always needed and you can certainly take the same corner without leaning at all. The rider that is hanging off likely has more lean angle available than the rider that isn't hanging off at all. The sportbike rider course teaches this by using a rider who is positioned on the bike and photographed from the rear. Same corner, same rider, same bike, same conditions... the picture with the rider hanging off clearly shows the motorcycle is upright more than the other picture where he is simply leaning and increasing the steering rate into the corner. | ||
| Sifo |
Thanks Geforce, that's pretty much what I was thinking too. It's just hard to imagine hanging off enough to get my knee down from the lean angle I had. Given that the bike would be even more upright the more I hang off I would really have to be stretching to get my knee anywhere near the road. Keep in mind this was at a pace that me, a flat lander from IL was very comfortable with on an unfamiliar road. | ||
| Iman501 |
yea sifo i think it might help our practicing if we actually had more than 11 curves... | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
  Same bike. Same corner. Different riding position. | ||
| Reepicheep |
And here is why it matters... When the bike is fully upright, and you hit an imperfection in the road, you have something like 7 inches (or more) of suspension travel to absorb the impact and keep that rubber on the road before the bike is sliding out from under you. When the bike is leaned all the way over (scraping pegs), about all the suspension travel you have is the flex in the sidewall of the tire. Maybe 1/3 or an inch. Better not hit a bigger bump than that. And even then, you don't have damping on that travel. So by using body position to make the bike lean further in an attempt to scrape pegs, drag knees, erase chicken strips, or look cool is really just using body position to make most of your suspension as ineffective as possible. One of my two streetbike accidents was caused by *exactly* this... being a hero scraping pegs on an M2 through a familiar corner. It turned out that one particular line through that particular corner had a new defect... something settled under the road surface, and there was a smooth sided "divot" in the road. About 4 inches deep, 12 inches wide, and about 2 feet long. It was in mottled shadows... even post accident standing there on the sidewalk studying the road, you could not see it. I didn't find it until I was standing over it, seeing the skid marks leading from it where the front tire held traction (but left a straight skid mark) but the back tire lost traction (and left a nice circular spinny skid mark, offset by a nice groove shaved by a very expensive Banke footpeg). I could see right where both tires came back in contact with the pavement (where it was too little too late). | ||
| Geforce |
Spot on FB! Making contact with your knee isn't always required, in fact... on the street I will hang off without dropping my knee and take the corner without maxing out my lean angle. Sometimes, on LONG rides, I get lazy and just add more steering effort... that's when accidents tend to occur though. Either way, a rider will do what they wish, but there shouldn't be any negative outlook on a rider that properly weights the inside gyro, shifts his body to the inside of the corner and practices the fundamentals of good cornering techniques. That's just riding safely in my book. I can "drag knee" on my wife's XB12Scg in a parking lot almost with the bike standing straight up. Long legs, low, short bike = fun. On the 1125r, I have to be at the track. I just don't feel comfy trying to do it on the street or in a parking lot. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
That "hero" corner is almost a perfect circle with no increase or decrease in radius. We aren't doing more than about 55MPH or so through the turn. On the track, I do like to use my knee to judge lean angle. It's also saved my bacon when I lost traction on the front tire. I used my knee as a third contact point to keep the bike up until the front tire re-acquired grip. My philosophy is that if I could keep the bike bolt upright in the fat meat of the contact patch and hang my shoulder, knees, hips, elbows and ear lobes on the deck, I would. Use your body position to become your own side car monkey:  | ||
| Badlionsfan |
I skimmed this thread and didn't see this, so I'll throw my 2 cents in. Get the book Total Control by Lee Parks, and if you can get to one, take a Total Control class. His method is all about hanging off the bike. They can have you dragging a knee around a circle in on a range at 20 mph. Here's a pic of my Total Control instructor. I don't think this is what Honda had in mind when designing his bike.  | ||
| Pwnzor |
Same bike. Same corner. Different riding position. And his knee is *not* touching the ground. Much safer than actually dragging it on the street, which was my point. | ||
| Barker |
IMHO: I feel safer hanging off. I'm already half way thru a low side and less likely to high side. I feel it gives me more wiggle room to change my line if needed. Like others have said, hanging off leaves the suspension less compressed. In other words more clearance. Sitting on the bike, can cause less clearance.  | ||
| Pwnzor |
Foot pegs are disposable. Knees aren't. I maintain that actually dragging a knee on public pavement is a bad idea. I get out of the saddle and shift my weight around plenty. I just don't see any need to plant my knee on the street. | ||
| Barker |
I just what be clear I am using the term "Hanging off" not dragging a knee. I hang off all the time. I feel it the safest way for me to ride my style. The technique is almost identical to putting the knee down, but my knee is a few inches off the road. If feel like showing off, I just move the knee farther than I need. | ||
| New12r |
I know that footpeg! | ||
| Firebolt020283 |
I really like ridding on the street which is why I own a street bike and I have always wanted to ride like that on my bike But not because I want to drag my knee it is because I feel I am waisting about 3/4s of an inch on each side of my rear tires and that is waisting money. | ||
| 99buellx1 |
This i'm going to have to partly disagree with. Not really the knee touching part, I'm also not a fan of anything other than tires touching on the street. BUT. When using that much of the tire on the steet, you are not leavin much, if any, in reserve. In that scenario, I would either say go slower as to not require that much lean, or change body position to relieve some of the required lean. I hope we can all agree: Leaning to the point of not having tire in reserve is dangerous on the street I don't care your positioning, or anything else, when riding on the street (or anywhere really), you need to have reserves. | ||
| Boomerm2 |
+1000000 | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I don't care your positioning, or anything else, when riding on the street (or anywhere really), you need to have reserves. BINGO! The hanging off or the dragging (or not dragging) of the knee are not the goal. The goal is to increase the traction and contact patch reserves. | ||
| Babired |
Total Control number 1 class for helping you understand the body position and why we use it. | ||
| Mikef5000 |
A track day will teach you more in a few hours than a year of trying to get faster on the street. And an XT with Strada's is perfectly capable of knee dragging:  I've done more than one track day on sport touring tires (strada's) and have never had a traction issue (except the first time out with a cold track and cold tires, but then even the race rubber is not sticking yet) | ||
| Ridenusa4l |
subscribing... please carry on  Jake | ||
| 99buellx1 |
Mike - That pic has a strange head angle/looking direction for that much lean. | ||
| Wolfridgerider |
I prefer the counter weight method...  | ||
| Wolfridgerider |
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| 99buellx1 |
Neat pic, but that is about as opposite from counter weighting as you can get. haha. | ||
| Wolfridgerider |
plan ole diablo's  |
