I spent some time riding the Uly around a clover leaf yesterday to practice some different body positions.
The most obvious thing I learned was that focusing on getting my knee as close to the ground as possible makes everything else awkward. When I ignored my knee and focused on placement of my shoulders and hips, the turn felt almost effortless.
Heading to Arkansas tomorrow so I'll have lots of opportunity to learn on some real curves through the weekend.
Posted on Wednesday, September 29, 2010 - 04:09 pm:
Here's a good reason to keep some in reserve. I was mid-turn and adjusted throttle a bit, started to push the front, I did what I could to save it, but couldn't. (I'm the bike in front of the camera bike)
Posted on Wednesday, September 29, 2010 - 04:18 pm:
I have, on more than one occasion, saved a lowside while racing and the knee down. Not smart to drag a knee while street riding, but I won't lie and say I never have.
Posted on Wednesday, September 29, 2010 - 08:02 pm:
xbniner thats super close to my house! i live right by jubilee college state park (within walking distance) and Kickapoo is about 2 miles away from my house, i've ridden that road many times.
if your looking for a fun place without any traffic to practice some corners i suggest ridding through jubilee park! you may have to break the speed limit a bit to enjoy it, and watch out for animals, but it is fun!
I actually road out to gilson today on Rt 8, but a lot of it was straight, a few curves.
have you taken south kickapoo creek RD. down by the brass rail and race track? i think thats a much more fun road as far as it being twisty compared to south port rd.
Posted on Wednesday, September 29, 2010 - 09:59 pm:
Dragging a knee not something I do on the street unless I have a momentary lapse of common sense.
I move my whole body (butt and upper body) forward and to the inside of the turn. You will notice in lots of knee dragging or extreme lean angle shots that people are either bolt upright on the bike or "counterleaning" the body opposite the turn as seen here:
This will cause you to have to lean the bike MORE for a given speed. To preserve ground clearance, you need to lean INTO the turn like this:
You will notice that this rider has his mass moved off to the inside. This allows him to corner faster with LESS lean angle. Which gives you options. You can either speed up and lean more, or keep some lean angle in reserve (which is the wise choice on the street).
Posted on Wednesday, September 29, 2010 - 11:43 pm:
Iman, yes Creek Rd. is part of my loop also since I live near Bradley. I like the tighter curves but the road surface is terrible. I'll have to try Jubilee park sometime, is that near Kickapoo?
Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2010 - 12:01 am:
Yea its about 2 miles past kickapoo, just go through town (stay on 150/war memorial) go out of town past the houses and take the first right on princeville jubillee road, go about a 1.5 miles or so till you go up a hill around a curve and take a left (theres a big state park sign) and go to the end of the road. You are now at jubillee park (take a right down the big hill for the fun roads, or go straight to check out the historical college!)
I found that the limit on a stock Buell STT is amazingly farther than you would think. It was on a track with many practice laps and well warmed tires.
At Road America's go cart track I was chasing down Wolfie and the lead guy when disaster struck in front of me. Just feet apart as fast as we could go, I was totally committed on an outside dive to the inside and went down as a result of those in front of me crashing.
It was like super slow-mo for most of the wreck. I went in on a low side to avoid running over bodies that were sliding on my path of travel on the track. That is when I found how far these bikes have traction into a lean. My left foot was on the peg as it was going down, I felt the peg snap off and push my boot up from under the bike, at this point both tires still had traction and I was full on the brakes trying to make it slide out. Then I felt the primary cover touch down and that lifted the front tire away from it's grip to finally get the bike to go off the track in the same direction that the bike in front of me was sliding.
It would have required another half second to scan the outside of the turn so that I could stand the bike up and ride straight off the turn. The problem with that was in not having the time to look ahead would have possibly put me into a T-bone with another rider on the next looping turn where I would have ended going to get control.
On my Uly X I have found that dragging a knee is not my fastest way around a corner. I do hang off and since I am above 220 lbs I don't need the extra weight of my knee sticking out from the bike so I keep it about half tucked in. I have dragged the pegs a couple of times and what you see in one of Jeremy's picture above, it is more common to drag the outside of a boot. These pegs are narrower than the boots and due to old age and such it is often difficult to keep the boot tucked in tight against the side cases.
On a known clean good grip corner with the tires warmed up these Ulys will drag pegs without over extending their abilities. For me, it is like when I did hill climbs on my old Yamahammer TT500 back in the late 70's. If it felt right you could not stop me. If it did not feel right, even on the same hill I had done before, you could not pay me to do it. Being in your comfort zone is what it is all about.
All the photos are good learning Chad the lean angle of top photo bike then look at the racers you posted top photo bike has way more lean than the racers, all due to body position. Top photo of body is actually coming back to the outside of the curve and it kind of looks like his hips are pointed the wrong way. Phillip getting the knee out is the easiest thing to do, and the upper body is more difficult, so to make it easy for you to get the right body position get your inside elbow close to the inside knee. This will force your upper body down further for good body position. Practice scoot back in the saddle, chest down slide off to the inside of the turn. Open your body to the inside of the turn. Do this only when you are riding a straight line before the turn not during the turn, to minimize body movement
I've been playing around with my fore and aft positioning lately. I naturally have my body pretty far back when hanging off in a corner. I was wondering if this was correct though, just because on bikes like the Triumph Daytona, or Street Triple the seat seems to be set up to put you right up against the tank.
When I'm up on the tank on my Lightning, the bike just seems a bit twitchy on the turn in. I haven't been sure if this is because I'm getting a bit cramped up with the short reach to the bars, or if it's because of the forward weight bias I've been playing with.
Is Babired correct in saying you should scoot back when cornering? I don't feel comfortable with pushing hard enough on the local streets to really see which style doesn't work. It would be great to hear the opinions of those that spend some time honing their skills on the track.
Sifo in most cases you do scoot back a little but if you have a short reach to the bars then you don't need to. Scooting back will cause you to scoot down toward the tank more. I'm short on the ULY and I scoot back to hang off. The when I teach TC there are guys who have tail packs or their seat is short and higher in the back their butt and hip movement is limited. Or they can be a 250 pound guy on a 600 rice burner and they're so cramped on the bike they have a really hard time getting the correct position, and you have to remember everyone looks different and varies in body position.
Thanks for the input Babired. I didn't know you were a TC instructor. Sounds like I'll keep scooted back a bit on the Lightning. I think if I get near the tank, my upper body is just too close to the bars to allow for good steering inputs. Or I wind up sitting up like I'm on a dirt bike, and I know that's not what I'm looking for.
Any idea if shifting forward or back has much effect on the front or back tire slipping? Just a bit of input on this from those with the experience can save a lot of trial & error.
I'm thinking that I'm going to look for a TC class to attend next season. It looks like a great program.
That's okay I know there are other TC instructors who would coach it a little different. And you got it, scoot back chest closer to the tank if you are not scooted back even and inch your upper body doesn't have a lot of room and your cramped up in the front of the bike. Coaching riders to get their upper body closer to the tank and then out is the hardest thing to coach. Shifting forward or back when you are in the turn is not good and the movement will affect traction, I've done it on the ULY in the 40 foot circle and felt the front tire slip, pucker moment for me! Get your suspension set up to your weight and the bike, as Lee teaches, will ride itself around the corner! come on out and take a class. I really getting hooked on teaching it, I became an instructor for Lee last year. Last weekend I was lucky enough to sample some of MSF's new ARC. Its a totally revamped ERC they are launching it next year. They teach body position with chin over inside mirror and leverage on outside peg. I didn't ride any of the exercises but attended the classroom portion and I'm getting the feeling every new riding school will have a different riding technique to basically do the same thing I look at as having many skill sets you can use while riding.
I'm not offering this as advice to anybody! I have found it fun to practice, just for the heck of it, keeping the motorcycle as straight up a possible going around a turn, but doing so at a very slow speed. It is just about playing with the feel of the bike in motion and the balance of my body. No technique to apply to the track or street, just playing. I've even kicked my leg that is to the outside of the turn straight out so that my body leaning off the bike is at an extreme angle. It is kind of like a stretching exercise too. I remember doing things like this on my bicycle as a kid, just playing and enjoying the motion.
What I think it does give me for proper handling is the mental awareness of where my body is on the bike. The first time I tried to practice hanging a butt cheek off I was surprised at how little I was actually leaning. It seemed like a lot but wasn't really. I also noticed that in the pictures from my one and only track day. I thought I was grooving and leaned way over but the pictures tell a different story.
I'm not sure I will ever be able to throw a bike around a curve the way Rossi or Eslick can, that time in life has passed me by and I am too chicken to push that hard. But I do like to try some of the technique people have mentioned, I just wish they built a trainer bike with airbags all around so I could explore the limits safely.
I definitely scoot back when I am cornering. It helps me get my shoulders down. Andy Ibbot (UK director for Kieth Code's California Superbike School) had some pointers on a TV show I watched. If you stay up into the tank, you can't lock your outside knee into the tank correctly through a turn. You have to scoot back so that you can lock your outside knee into the tank while moving your body to the inside of the turn.
Thanks Terp I love coaching it. It worked for me when I first took TC in 2006 I was on my XB9SX then Tracy kept pushing me to get further off of the seat! I know there are more guys out there who have a lot of experience in this topic they need to charm in too. The grip stuff is good I want some for my ULY but need to know what everybody is using on their XB Buell. The type of riding pants you wear can become an issue, sliding or getting stuck!
IIRC, the original source said that rear tire shows how hard you accelerate out of the corner while leaned over, and the front is affected by a combination of braking late and diving in quickly.
Any truth to that?
Negative.
Iman501 - to help get your upper body correct, many coaches will tell you to "kiss the mirror".. that is, get your face next to the left hand mirror for a left turn.
If you look at the photo Twobuells posted above, it illustrates an incorrect body position (sorry ) - he's moved his ass over on the seat, but his upper body is leaned back towards the other side of the bike.
) - he's moved his ass over on the seat, but his upper body is leaned back towards the other side of the bike.