| Author | Message | ||
     Sifo |
Just to be clear about what was going on, where the slaves were exported from had to do with trade routes. Trade routes in those days were a function of the prevailing trade winds. Slaves were picked up and moved south to points of export. This was where ships could leave Africa and follow the trade winds across the Atlantic just as tropical storms do today. Of course that's where most of the exports were done from, as would be confirmed by shipping records. | ||
| Sifo |
One more bad assumption you seem to be making... You are assuming that where the slaves were taken from correlates with who enslaved them. That isn't necessarily the case. http://africanhistory.about.com/od/slavery/tp/Tran sAtlantic001.htm
You're assertion that because a slave came from an area not dominated by Muslims, that Muslims had nothing to do with enslaving them, just isn't a sound assumption. | ||
| Sifo |
At any rate the thing that is most of interest to me is what is going on today. What other religion has this sort of thing going on? A leading Saudi government cleric and author of the country's religious curriculum believes Islam advocates slavery.
It's not even a hidden dirty fact. It's just a part of Islam. | ||
| M2me |
You're assertion that because a slave came from an area not dominated by Muslims, that Muslims had nothing to do with enslaving them, just isn't a sound assumption.
Fall of Kongo Definition of "wholesale" from Wikpedia:
Both the Portuguese and the Kongo slave merchants were wholesale slave traders. Neither the Portuguese or the Kongo slave merchants were Muslim. This isn't rocket science. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
I have at least two full mags loaded with porcuine tainted rounds. and the Jesus sight helps too. | ||
| M2me |
Here is a simple quiz for everyone. Mark the following two statements True or False. 1. Muslims were responsible for all wholesale African slave trade. 2. Islamic jihad was responsible for the deaths of 50 million Orthodox Christians in Asia Minor. I'm going to make it super easy and give you the answers. Both statements are false. Don't accept falsehoods as truth. It's like eating potato chips. Once you start it's very hard to stop. Once you accept one falsehood as truth it becomes easier to accept another one, and then another and another. Eventually your whole world view is so twisted that you're building concentration camps or becoming an Islamic terrorist. | ||
| Reindog |
This debate is pointless. Who cares if Muslims did or did not "make the trains run on schedule"? 1. Newsflash: Slavery is bad. 2. Apparently some contemporary iSLAMists disagree with #1. 3. America is at war with Radical iSLAM. 4. It is immaterial that someone like the Socialist m2me disagrees with #3. 5. America must eat the livers of Radical iSLAMists. 6. Building the Cordoba Mosque, ... I mean the iSLAMist "community center", ... I mean the WTC Victory Mosque, isn't going to foster brotherhood and understanding no matter how the Left spins it. It is akin to rubbing the noses of the WTC victims and victims family in doodly doo. 7. m2me should return to his brethren on Sacborg until he recants his Socialist, ACORN loving ways. His vile sputum smells bad and is unhealthy. 8. I went on a 394 mile SCAB ride yesterday through Big Bear and Idllywild on the Uly. One 27-mile stretch up the mountain had only three cars! | ||
| Sifo |
And here's where it all started... Posted on Saturday, September 11, 2010 - 12:15 am: That is completely false. Muslims had nothing to do with the Atlantic slave trade. Which is closer to the truth? a) Muslims had nothing to do with the Atlantic slave trade. or b) Muslims were responsible for all wholesale African slave trade. Both are taken to the extreme, ALL or NONE. I stated days ago that I had my doubts that ALL was and overstatement. It is very clear however that Muslims were involved in the vast majority of slave trading in Africa though. I really don't understand why you are so focused on 2 small details that have been conceded long ago. Is it really the word ALL? This is why I asked you to explain exactly what you didn't like about this statement. You were unwilling to do that however. I don't really understand your focus on the Atlantic trade either.
The majority of the slaves weren't even part of the Atlantic trade. Was this just to obfuscate the entire discussion? You never would explain how you came to this conclusion...
That's utter nonsense. 14MM were sent directly to Islamic countries. That fact that you offer nothing to back your numbers shows that you are simply pulling them out of your ass. No doubt when quantifying something like African slavery it's unlikely to be 100% accurate with your numbers. The question is who has the more credible numbers. I'm a bit more inclined to accept authors who are citing references than a poster on a Buell web site that has a history of half truths on the subject. | ||
| Sifo |
1. Newsflash: Slavery is bad. 2. Apparently some contemporary iSLAMists disagree with #1. 3. America is at war with Radical iSLAM. A big part of the problem is that Radical Islam is coming straight out of Mecca. It would be like taking the view of the Vatican as nothing but the view of a few Catholic extremists. If Mecca doesn't speak for mainstream Islam then who does? | ||
| Johnnymceldoo |
I guess this imam and our dear leader feel stopping the building of the ny mosque could recruit new terrorists and more attacks. That's reason enough to build right? We just want to live in peace. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I guess this imam and our dear leader feel stopping the building of the ny mosque could recruit new terrorists and more attacks. That's reason enough to build right? We just want to live in peace. We can thank this Imam for fabricating a no-win-scenario. | ||
| Sifo |
It's interesting that the Imam just gives a warning to the US that if the mosque doesn't get built there will be violence by "extremists". Why is there not a call to his brethren to not resort to violence and show that Islam is indeed a religion of peace. A veiled threat of violence doesn't remind me of peaceful people, it reminds me of the Mafia making me an offer I can't refuse. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Why are the 90% "MODERATE" Muslims not laying a beat down on the extremists? Could it be that the "moderate" Muslims see benefit in the attack dog extremists in furthering their beliefs? When the Westboro retards show up, we, as "moderate" Christians run them off. When some "extremist" pastor in Florida threatens to burn a Koran, we, as "moderate" Christians petition and protest to keep him from doing it. http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?id=33650 "The behavior of this church is not Christian," Land said during an online chat on The Washington Post's website. "I cannot imagine Christ burning any religious texts. This behavior is unfortunately one of the prices we pay for living in a free society with freedom of speech and freedom of expression, even when it is odious and reprehensible. I believe it is incumbent upon Christians across the country to denounce this action by this local church and its pastor to make it as clear as possible that they do not speak for any sizable portion of the Christian faith community in any way, shape or form." Oh, by the way. Dr. Land is my Mother's boss. She probably proof read this national announcement. The Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission is the heart of the Southern Baptist Commission. Here's the statement from the Catholics: http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/vatican-cou ncil-calls-planned-koran-burning-ceremony-outrageo us/ Now the guy in Florida was just going to burn a book. He wasn't going to behead anyone or bomb a building. I don't just want written condemnation from the Muslim world. I want Islam to police its own. Until then, I'll hold the view that "moderate" Muslims are as plentiful as unicorns. (Message edited by ft_bstrd on September 12, 2010) | ||
| Swordsman |
I tend to agree with Ft_ on this, and always have. Either A.) moderate Muslims are scared SHITLESS of the radicals or B.) they're secretly supportive. Otherwise, they'd be nipped in the bud promptly. ~SM | ||
| Aesquire |
1. Muslims were responsible for all wholesale African slave trade. No. Most, almost certainly. The N.American trade was less than half of wholesale African slaving, and European slavers who bought from other than Arabs were also a minority. "All" is an exaggeration. "Most" is proper, and has been conceded by others. Done deal. NO NEED TO ARGUE ABOUT PERCENTAGES OF SLAVE TRADE ANYMORE....unless you want to get into the juicy details from Eagle Market....  2. Islamic jihad was responsible for the deaths of 50 million Orthodox Christians in Asia Minor. Gee, I don't know. 50 million sounds big. ( first look... the population of Constantinople was between a million and 50 thousand folk at the beginning of the Crusades.. need far more data. What's the time period? ) I'll ask my Sister, if you like, she's a history buff with some interest in the Orthodox Church, and knows the history dept. guys at Columbia. The number is NOT zero. I wouldn't guess at the number without far more data. And, why is this a point? Look at it this way, if you like. A minority of Islam are bad apples doing great evil and wishing to destroy our way of life. No more internet porn. The majority of people who are raised in or join the Faith of Submission have no interest in hurting you, and just want to live their lives, get laid, and have kids. The bad apples give the regular type folk a bad name... And worse, the regular folk either (a) are scared to death of the evil guys, or (b) partly agree and are too timid to actively mess with other peoples lives. Anyone disagree, or wish to expand on that? | ||
| Aesquire |
Don't get me wrong. I'll happily discuss details on the siege engines used to break down the walls of Jerusalem, throughout history. ( been done more than once....) The history aspects of the Jihadi problem are fascinating. I think you need to have a clue about where we came from to see where you are going. History is good to discuss. But. Today, this last 50 years, to be specific, the biggest killers of people on the planet are the believers in a leftist utopia, and violent Jihad. Fact. Does this not plainly show that these 2 philosophies have serious flaws? | ||
| Moxnix |
Land is okay in my book. And with my book. Next year being the 10th anniversary of the attack, it should ramp up cable news hysteria. We'll see if they offer BLTs to the terrorists, dig up the truth or bury it. | ||
| M2me |
Gee, I don't know. 50 million sounds big. That's what the article by Raphael Moore says and I'm not disputing the number because I honestly don't know either. Stalin killed between 7 and 12 million, according to Raphael Moore, and the Nazis killed a bunch too. So did Muslims. But the Tears of Jihad article makes the false claim that all 50 million deaths are attributable to Islamic jihad. That's my whole beef with the Tears of Jihad article. Approximately 16,000 Americans were murdered last year. Were some of those murders committed by Muslims? You betcha! So you know what I'm gonna do? I'm just gonna say that Muslims committed all 16,000 murders. Why not? That's what the Tears of Jihad article does. African slave trade? Islamic jihad is 100% responsible. Orthodox Christian deaths in Asia Minor? Islamic jihad is 100% responsible. Everybody else is completely exonerated of these evil doings. Islamic jihad is 100% responsible for them. That's just ridiculous! Reference for those just tuning in: Tears of Jihad In Memory Of The 50 Million Victims Of The Orthodox Christian Holocaust (Message edited by m2me on September 13, 2010) | ||
| M2me |
The bad apples give the regular type folk a bad name... And worse, the regular folk either (a) are scared to death of the evil guys, or (b) partly agree and are too timid to actively mess with other peoples lives. Anyone disagree, or wish to expand on that? I agree 100% and I'll expand on it. Everybody cries and complains that moderate Muslims don't speak up more against Islamic extremists. But what happens when a moderate Muslim does speak up? We greet that moderate Muslim with pitchforks and torches. We sling a length of rope over the nearest sour apple tree. Now, if you were a moderate Muslim, would you speak up? I sure wouldn't. I'd keep my mouth shut. | ||
| Reindog |
I am unaware of any moderate Muslims speaking up. Is this what they teach you at your Socialist cadre meetings? I trust you do not include CAIR nor the Hamas loving Rauf as moderates as they are quite radical. You are either trolling or acting silly. Most Americans care not a whit if their neighbor or co-worker is Muslim. You are resorting to emotions and nobody is buying that here. You are tiresome. Go back to Sacborg or ride your Buell. It will do you some good. (Message edited by reindog on September 13, 2010) | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I don't care if they speak up or not. I want them to shoot their own rabid dogs in the head so the rest of the world doesn't have to. I don't see the "moderate" Muslims rising up and putting and end to Hamas or Hezbollah or Al Quaeda. I don't see the "moderate" Muslims rising up and ending the regime that's been running Iran. I don't see the "moderate" Muslims rising up to end the riots in Europe. I don't see the "moderate" Muslims stepping up to put pressure on this Imam in New York to back down on his plans, that building a Mosque so close to a sensitive site might invoke some anti-Muslim sentiment elsewhere in the country. I don't see the "moderate" Muslims stepping up to put an end to Burkas and sexual mutilation of women. I don't see the "moderate" Muslims working to create a lasting peace with Israel. I don't see the "moderate" Muslims working to integrate their societies into the societies of the nations they inhabit. I don't see the "moderate" Muslims leading the charge to provide aid in MUSLIM areas (Tsunami, floods, earthquakes) let alone non-Muslim areas. Got plenty of money for jihad but can't spare a dime to help out your own brethren in Pakistan? Nah, don't worry about Haiti, we'll take care of it. Again.  Like I said, "Moderate" Muslims are as plentiful as unicorns. Stop talking (or not talking) and take some action or we might just believe that that other 90% is on board with what the "crazy" 10% is doing. | ||
| Moxnix |
The wahabiist Saudis won't burn our flag or books. You read it here first: oil will go over $200 a barrel in 2011. Thereby screwing up our ability to pay down debt to China. Chaos. | ||
| Crusty |
Everybody cries and complains that moderate Muslims don't speak up more against Islamic extremists. But what happens when a moderate Muslim does speak up? We greet that moderate Muslim with pitchforks and torches. We sling a length of rope over the nearest sour apple tree. Now, if you were a moderate Muslim, would you speak up? I sure wouldn't. I'd keep my mouth shut. When was the last time you heard of a Muslim being hung? | ||
| Reindog |
Sounds like an idea for a porn movie. After all, they are uncircumcised. | ||
| Blake |
I've seen a liberal muslim activist interviewed on Fox News who is trying to reform islam to repudiate and remove the violent culture of death and oppression from the religion. Saw him once. His effect has been nil so far as I can tell. America is under attack; the effects are chilling. http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2010/05/07/is lam-taboo-topic-tv-wake-south-park-threats-times-s quare-bomb-scare/ John (M2me) is a liar and exaggerator who's long ago worn out his welcome here. He's proved it time and again. Despicable. I'm beginning to think that he's nothing but a miserable troll. Thus he's been shown the door. | ||
| Reindog |
Socialism is an evil philosophy that saps the spirit and freedom out of Man. It is based on a juvenile notion that people will share the fruits of their labor with others who can't or refuse to work. It is coerced by the threat of violence if not adhered to voluntarily. Juvenile is the key word. The two Socialists who have been shown the door could only argue with emotion, condescension, and derision. I personally experienced Socialist and Communists literally destroy Antioch College which I attended. I will NOT allow this philosophy to rot America from the inside and will alert people in the center or left of center of its dangers. The logical conclusion of Socialism is Orwellian. | ||
| Reindog |
It appears that Sacborg has been shut down due to lack of support. Sacborg was m2me's safe haven where he could bad mouth Badweb, Badwebbers, and the Blake Monster while others dog piled on Court. It is a sad statement on an individual when they are invited on a website, stink it up, and then deride it publicly on a different website. | ||
| Sifo |
I think it's a shame he got banned. He did at times make me think about a subject, this was one of them. Sadly he was unable to understand where he had weak arguments and where he had strong ones. On this subject he won a couple of small victories that were close to meaningless in the big picture. He did this while ignoring areas that would could have won him much more ground. Making Islam look good on the subject of slavery just isn't in the cards though. I happen think the British get a big pass in most of the blame game of the history of slavery. I also think the US gets too much blame. Slavery was actually abolished quite quickly after the formation of our union. Slavery is a bad stain on all humanity that unfortunately continues today. Sadly, from what I can tell there has never been a period in the history of Islam where slavery wasn't accepted. Socialism is an evil philosophy that saps the spirit and freedom out of Man. It is based on a juvenile notion that people will share the fruits of their labor with others who can't or refuse to work. The weird thing is they readily point out the flaw of unrestricted capitalism being greed. Of course we have never had unrestricted capitalism. The biggest problem I see with our system is weak watch dogs of some of the largest companies. Socialism/Communism OTOH, the watch dogs are pretty much the same people that need to be watched over. There's just no way that kind of system is going to end well. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Socialism is simply limited totalitarianism. By it's very nature, socialism must edge a government toward totalitarianism as the recipient class grows and the donor class shrinks. The more recipients the greater the need to confiscate wealth from the donor class until a tipping point is achieved whereby ALL must be confiscated from the donors in order to feed the masses. | ||
| Aesquire |
We greet that moderate Muslim with pitchforks and torches. We sling a length of rope over the nearest sour apple tree. Now, if you were a moderate Muslim, would you speak up? I sure wouldn't. I'd keep my mouth shut. I'm sorry he can't respond to this...but. What do you mean WE paleface? My point, and that of many here, is that "radical islamists" hang, behead, bake the children of, and generally show their displeasure at being "diss'ed" by "moderates" or, for than matter, pagans and anyone sane. THAT's why they keep their mouth shut leaving the fruit of the boom bomber types as spokespeople for a faith. That's why "Islam" is getting a real stink of a name. There actually are good parts, but when the "Charities" give money to terrorists, and the primary muslim outreach org, CAIR, is a bunch of rich racist terrorist supporters, where is the "moderate" going to get a forum? And...why should we listen? if all he has to say is "we're not all like that" instead of "help us stop these *(&^(()'s. We won't tolerate them anymore, the mosque on 42nd street is a recruiting ground, the tall mullah is ok, the short one is a crook, and there are guns in the attic. Get them, and make life safer for us all." Then, the Jihadi problem will be solved, at least locally, and you have to start local. Other than the usual hyperbole involving painting the lines on the glass parking lot..... I never hear anyone call for the lynching of muslims. I deal with them daily. Some are good at Cricket. ( i assume, they have fun anyway ) No, let me think.... I DO hear people call for lynchings, and vigilante rants. From leftists. They want to kill those who disagree with them. ( to be fair, only the radical leftist actually want to kill people.....like the follower of Gore at the Discovery Channel hostage scene ) Leftist always lie. The lie about their motives, they lie about what they will do if given power, and they lie about the results of their actions. They have to. No sane person would trust them with their dog if they didn't. When someone can't win an argument with facts & logic, evil people go to unfounded attacks, instead of conceding the Argument. Of course, if "truth" and "facts" are relative to how much you want to win...... you violate the Google motto. |
