| Author | Message | ||
     Joshinga |
Wonder if Eslick would be willing to come back? Just think a Eslick - May line up in Superbike. I'm salivating just thinking about it.  | ||
| Xl1200r |
I think you guys are getting yourselves way too hyped up over too-good-to-be-true news. Think for a second. We're all foaming at the mouth for a bike we haven't even seen yet. We already know it's going to be EXTREMELY limited quantities. If you were a small, startup operation like Erik Buell Racing, would you build a bike to "sell it at a loss to generate interest" (this makes my head hurt), or take advantage of the incredible gap of supply vs. demand and charge what the market will bear? I think prices will be fair considering what people will be getting - assuming the 1190RS is more or less a road-going 1190RR (again, small startup, not making ground up tube frame bikes as homage to the past, which would be a step in the wrong direction, anyways), I'd but prices will be in the $25,000 neighborhood. | ||
| Badlionsfan |
It's not Eslicks call, Richie Morris owns the team. | ||
| Lemonchili_x1 |
What happened to AMA's "3000 rule?" They don't require a certain amount of bikes to be street sold for homologation anymore? That must have been a recent change. I think you're thinking of WSBK/FIM World Superbike, which went up to 3000 units for 2010. It was 1000 units for 2008/2009, and based on manufacturer size prior to that. The AMA hasn't had an actual specific number in the rules for past two or three seasons at least. | ||
| Jlnance |
Just to add to the rampant speculation.  After June 1st, manufacturers must maintain availability of models homologated for the current season for sale to any AMA Pro Racing licensed road race competitor until August 1st of the current season. they said was it was going to be VERY expensive and VERY limited production run.. Lets say you need your bike homologated, which requires you to sell a street version. But at this point in time, you don't really want to be in the street bike business, you're too busy. It's just a racing rule requirement. So you have to sell the bike to whomever wants it, but you really only want to sell 5 of them or so. How would you price it? (I should note that I have a horrible track record trying to figure out what EB is going to do.) | ||
| 46champ |
These are the bikes that the new Erik Buell Racing 1190RS will compete with. Aprili}a RSV4 Factory $20,995 Ducati 1198S $21,795 Ducati 1198S Course $24,995 BMW S1000RR $13,800 BMW HP2 $25,500 MV F4 1000R $18,500 I selected these bikes because of there semi exclusivity. They are not the base models from their manufactures. All prices are MSRP Erik Buell Racing 1190RS version 1.0 will be $22,495. | ||
| Doerman |
Good reasoning there, Champ. I think you might be close. | ||
| Elvis |
The 1190RS will be competing with all the other American Superbikes. Let's put together a list of those . . . Does the $50,000 Roehr count? I'd put the 1190RS up against it at any track any time. All the models listed above are sold in MUCH larger volumes than the 1190RS will be and all are based on platforms that are sold even more broadly. How many F4CC's are sold at $120,000? I'm betting that's closer in volume to the 1190RS than anything listed above. I think the closest thing we can point to in terms of exclusivity and uniqueness would probably be the $72,500 Desmosedici. | ||
| Smoke |
damn, i can see my 401k shrinking for a different investment. tim | ||
| Sifo |
MotoCzysz C1 990 - $100,000 | ||
| Rwven |
A good starting place might be the price of the 1190RR which is $44,900. | ||
| Reepicheep |
I think the first year bikes are going to have two roles.. 1) Get enough out to compete in American Superbike. 2) Prove out a business case and remove a bunch of "unknowns" for potential investors and partners. 3) If they go out and start spanking the competition (which is a real possibility), the business will get REALLY attractive to investors or partners. The initial bikes won't be cheap, they are not mass produced. Though with modern technology and sourcing methods, "niche" won't be as bad as it used to be. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Oh, and Sifo... you are right, but a lot of the heavy lifting is done, and both HD and Buell know it. There are a few approaches. 1) Call all the old suppliers (that are almost universally completely independent of HD) and say "remember that thingy you built for the 1125? How much to get something almost exactly but not quite like it?". 2) Call new suppliers and hand them the old part, and lots of information about it that you remember (or got off that hard drive HD sold for scrap and didn't think to purge the data from) and ask them "how much to make another". 3) Start over, knowing what you learned from "rev 1", and design and spec "rev 2", and get that made. I'm guessing Erik Buell Racing will do all three. HD can decide they want a lot of negative attention and to piss off a lot of suppliers and get really fussy about "this part looks an awful lot like this other part that is mine"... but even their lawyers know they will be doomed. The suppliers (I have a close friend that was a direct supplier to HD for a LONG time) are universally pretty pi$$ed off at HD anyway. They were treating them badly and slowly putting the screws to them for many years even when the honey hole was flowing. I imagine the current economic situation only made things worse. So HD has no friends among its suppliers... its pure business. The suppliers no doubt invested a lot of engineering and fabrication time for the Buell parts, and have been hurt and are mad that HD screwed up a viable brand. Reverse engineering isn't that hard in the first place. Reverse engineering when it's the freaking guy that designed the freaking part working with the freaking supplier that made the freaking part... gets even easier.  There will be key patents Buell may have to dodge if HD starts being stupid again. But I'm guessing they won't want the attention, and will either let Buell use the IP the company developed, or license it reasonably. If not, though I like the ZTL2 brakes on a street bike, just dial 1-800-brembo. I also don't know what the current Harley downsizing effort has done to the legal department... it might be running a skeleton crew as well, and has a lot more money to be made moving forward rather then attacking people for using IP that HD has basically already written off as a loss anyway. So definitely some challenges there... but I don't see anything that will stop a determined and smart company. | ||
| Court |
>>>>So definitely some challenges there... but I don't see anything that will stop a determined and smart company. Most the impediments, things like imagined non-competes and patent problems are figments of the collective internet imagination. Erik has learned a great deal and I expect he's more excited about making new things rather than continuing old. Be mindful that the XB was one of the first, of MANY, designs he has in the can. The 200 year plan is. I see a bright future. | ||
| Jaimec |
46champ: There is nothing "semi exclusive" about the S1000RR. The HP2 Sport yes... but the S1000RR is a mass-produced motorcycle that ANYONE can get. | ||
| Rainman |
A Buell cruiser...... Sorry, bad dream. | ||
| 46champ |
Jaimec I put the S 1000RR in because I needed a bottom and your right it's not exclusive. Although it was raced it's first year in WSB as practically a prototype. Yea I know all the arguments. The reason I feel version 1.0 might not be as expensive as some think is I feel the run will be very small 50 to 100 units. A run that small will probably be sourced primarily from existing inventory. | ||
| Blake |
Rainman! To the hall of shame! LOL! | ||
| Sifo |
Reepicheep, I have to agree mostly with what you said. I have no idea if HD would allow use of current patents, but recent history show they are not very flexible on these matters, judging from not wanting to allow the sale of Buell. My bet is that the 1190RS will be a minimum run for homologation purposes. This is simply getting the company to walk before trying to get it to run. It's a great move to show what the 1125 chassis's potential really is. It gives Erik the ability to push forward while leveraging the work he had done while under HD's thumb. Once the potential of the current chassis is demonstrated and proven in competition, they will be able to start moving forward with the next generation of Erik Buell Racing bikes that don't rely on HD owned patents. As Court points out, no doubt Erik has many ideas in the can. You do have to go one step at a time though. The next logical step is homologation of the 1190RR IMO. | ||
| Sifo |
I think Erik might just put some interesting twists on a cruiser. It's the wrong time for that sort of venture, but I would love to see what he could do to a cruiser. Can there be a sport cruiser category?  Then again maybe that's what my Lightning is. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Can there be a sport cruiser category? Apparently Ducati is building one:  | ||
| Xl1200r |
Muscle cruisers - Honda VTX, V-Rod, that Ducati thing, V-Max all would be in that category. | ||
| Jaimec |
Victory tried the Sport Cruiser concept ten years ago. As you'd expect, the press liked it... nobody bought it. | ||
| Rainman |
Wasn't there a street rod V-rod version with mid-pegs and more ground clearance? I think that's the one I really liked. Of course, no one bought it. | ||
| S1wmike |
I bought one and love it. FUN FUN FUN bike. | ||
| Buellkowski |
Saw that Duc and the new Aprilia 1200 twin engine in my CW yesterday and thought, "The moto world is going all Buellish." I truly hope Erik Buell Racing can stay ahead of the copycats. Reep's point about reverse engineering works for all comers. | ||
| 2008xb12scg |
What patents are we talking about? Underslung exhaust? Seems all the bikes have that now. Fuell in frame? is there a patent on the concept or just that perticular frame? ztl brakes? Some say the dual disc is better anyway (I don't know) I'm no expert but seems most of those things can be gotten around if there's an issue. Not to mention he's already selling race bikes with all that anyway. It seems obvious it's just going to be an 1190 with fans and lights tuned for the street. | ||
| 2008xb12scg |
oh when I say "just " an 1190 for the street what I meant was my dream bike. | ||
| Sifo |
What patents are we talking about? Underslung exhaust? Seems all the bikes have that now. Fuell in frame? is there a patent on the concept or just that perticular frame? ztl brakes? Some say the dual disc is better anyway (I don't know) I'm no expert but seems most of those things can be gotten around if there's an issue. Not to mention he's already selling race bikes with all that anyway. It seems obvious it's just going to be an 1190 with fans and lights tuned for the street. Other than the ZTL patents, I'm not sure exactly what patents would be involved. Sure it would be easy enough to slap on some Brembos, but ZTL was part of the Buell package. I'm sure that certain details of the frame were covered by patents. It's more that enough to keep Erik Buell Racing from just putting out an 1125 copy. As for the 1125RR and 1190R bikes that Erik Buell Racing sells, those aren't 1125 copies. Those are actual 1125s that have been reworked. Yenko and many others have done the same thing through the years with various muscle cars. There's no patent infringement when you are reselling what the patent holder manufactured. | ||
| Froggy |
The patent on the ZTL brake had to do with the mounting system. The Fuel in frame one had to do with the breakaway steering neck. Patents are a funny thing, and Erik once said "I wrote those patents, I can just write around them". Patents are the least of his concerns right now. |
