| Author | Message | ||
     Ft_bstrd |
Dim bulb: Paying taxes is voluntary! For Democrats. | ||
| Buellkowski |
The premise was that the fed's $8,000 tax-credit "investment" would yield the treasury more than that amount in the home sale's associated economic activity, or in avoidance of other liabilities that may arise without the "investment". Why do states give tax breaks to corporations to lure them in? For fun? As Sifo put it, a tax cut designed to stimulate the economy and provide higher tax revenues. Why is this a problem for you guys? Is it because Obama thought it up? | ||
| Reindog |
The $8K tax credit has a net destructive effect on a market, in this case, the housing market. Prices will find their correct level if the government stops interfering. The more the government tries to influence the market, the longer it will take to have a recovery. As already mentioned, it redistributes wealth from the producers (people who pay taxes) to the consumers (people who receive tax credits). That is morally wrong and is just another attempt by the government to do social engineering. It is disruptive as now home buyers are going to expect the government to give them something for nothing in the future. Buyers will now wait and the act of waiting perturbs the market. Market perturbations tend to panic Congress who will then be motivated to again give what they do not have. Thirdly, it is a killer of ambition and motivation. Why should I bust my butt and work hard to save for a house when the freeloader next to me will be handed a freebie from those who give what they do not have? There is no fundamental right to own a house. There is absolutely nothing wrong with renting. This government has failed us and continues to fail us. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
In the short run, we didn't even have the $8,000 per house to provide the credit, so we borrowed the money from the Chinese. With interest. | ||
| Court |
>>>>I'll bet home-buying was spurred in April. Do you have those figures? It most certainly was. . . . just like unemployment feel ( a bit ) the month the feds hired the 400,000 census workers. The point it the program did nothing of value. You were partially right that my figure was inaccurate. I said worst month in history, it should have read "worst in 15 years". I'm loving the effect of this healthcare cost savings . . . . I decided to go "out of network" to get the surgeon I wanted for my recent surgery. The bill for the surgery (please note this is not the hospital, anesthesiologist or anything else) just the surgery. $27,216.80. The surgeon and I have since become pretty good friends. Amazing how much of that is insurance in case I sued him. Back to your tussling . .. | ||
| Court |
>>>>that's still up to $8,000 more cash in the homeowner's pocket to spend as they please Try this . . . . you;ll love it if you actually believe that crap about the $8,000 and you are in favor of redistribution . . . go take out an $8,000 cash advance on a credit card. (if you can get if from the Chinese, all the better . . Obama did) Now . . give the $8,000 to your next door neighbor. Everyone agrees that we have effectively made a redistribution and that your neighbor is injecting cash into the economy buying all that beer, the flat screen and the chain to hang the Chevy motor from the tree limb. Now see how much you like the idea . . . . | ||
| Reindog |
It takes a while to build a Conservative but it will surely happen as the fallacies that a Liberal clings to are politely shown to be just that. It happened to me over time. You guys are doing a great job. I am confident that some of the more open minded Liberals here are actually thinking about what you are saying and are slowly coming to the inexorable conclusion that their world view is no longer working. Obama is making the job easier at the expense of structural damage to America. | ||
| Blasterd |
So id HD moving out of Milwaukee? | ||
| Court |
>>>>Obama is making the job easier at the expense of structural damage to America. The one thing he WILL be remembered for is redefining the word "plummeted". HD may very well move. Their constant bickering, the way they have treated local labor, the ridiculous concessions they've extracted in the past and the way they have the locals bent over ready to take another shot had placed them in a position where they have much less local support than they did in their heyday. . . frankly, given the MOST the HD jobs are already gone . . the locals don't seem to much care as HD is no longer much of a corporate jewel in their crown. I should add that I am a big fan of the Obama "4 vacations in a month" style. (Message edited by court on August 24, 2010) | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I hear a commentator postulate that Obama won't run in 2012. | ||
| Slaughter |
My father caught me postulating as a 14 year old. Beat me within an inch of my life, telling me that postulation was a sin! | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I still have vision problems, but the extra palm hair helps me grip things. | ||
| Rocketsprink |
Still waiting for some good reading. All I see here is the same old shit that got us here to start with. I'm not looking for YOUR " to sum it up". Looking for actual ideas and answers. Guess it's harder than ya thought. | ||
| Roadcouch98 |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eUsSXXc8wU | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
We've given plenty of answers. You just don't want to hear them. Our plan is for people to get off their asses and go make their own future with a government that gets the hell out of the way and lets that happen. Our plan doesn't reward failure or laziness. It doesn't support those who seek to become permanent wards of the state. There isn't a damn thing I need from the government but to go away and leave me alone. I'm just sorry that you need someone to advocate for you or prop you up with a "plan". You still haven't answered ANY questions posed to you. Until then....... | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
BTW, the framers didn't have a "plan" either. Their goal was to build a country where the government did the absolute minimum it needed to to provide a country where the individual could prosper. They would have shot Obama for treason by now. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Sum it up: Lower taxes MUCH Smaller Government Strict Constructionist interpretation of the Constitution (Article 1, Section 8, 10th Amendment) Enforcement of immigration laws Corporate tax policy that encourages US jobs creation | ||
| Buellkowski |
. . . go take out an $8,000 cash advance on a credit card... Now . . give the $8,000 to your next door neighbor. I hope this statement is simply poetic hyperbole. How much do you think the tax credit will cost this FY? $10 billion or so? How much of that amount will you really be responsible for as an individual taxpayer? $50? "Redistribution?" A handout to "freeloaders?" To me, the tax credit seems more akin to a "signing bonus." You had to buy a freaking house to get the 8 grand, after all. Next you'll be telling us that FDIC insured savings accounts are a "redistribution", too. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
The quickest way to convert a liberal ? Use their money for all the programs that they want to bilk from the rest of the country. Lets start with forced with holding on congressional and senatorial pay. And remove their ability to vote themselves a pay raise Follow it up with a good dose of term limits. Remember when you tax all the 'profit' there is no money left for discretionary spending. Enjoy your new economic 'prosperity'. Too much friggen HYP in Washington. | ||
| Doug_s |
rocket, give it up. i bailed here cuz you won't get any answers, only insults & fear mongering. twisted ideas like "redistributive justice." tired old worn out platitudes about the need to cut taxes, let the corporations do their thing, to create wealth. i do not know what is so wrong to want have a healthy infrastructure, a healthy schools system and a healthy population. that's socialism? huh? that's simply a normal healthy society. anything less is second rate. but these reactionaries think i want to pillar the rich, those hard-working clean living pious folks, and give it to the poor, who everyone knows are simply lazy worthless do-nothings, that simply wanna live off of everyone else's handouts. don't let anyone fool you into thinking republicans wanna cut spending. NOT!!! they have historically, (at least as long as i have been alive, anyways), wanted to spend as much and more as any democrats. the only real difference between democrats & republicans is that democrats are tax & spend, republicans are borrow & spend. you may not like either, and both may not be the best idea, but i know which is more sound... oh ya, one other difference is that republicans seem more interested in their govt spending on big corporate interests and on things that can kill...  doug s. | ||
| Spike |
You could try listening.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting those things. The fact that you think the debate is about wanting those things demonstrates that you haven't been paying attention. The core of the debate is how we go about acquiring those things we want. When you label your opponent as one who does not want healthy schools, infrastructure, and people, you are the one doing the fear mongering. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I hope this statement is simply poetic hyperbole. How much do you think the tax credit will cost this FY? $10 billion or so? How much of that amount will you really be responsible for as an individual taxpayer? $50? "Redistribution?" A handout to "freeloaders?" To me, the tax credit seems more akin to a "signing bonus." You had to buy a freaking house to get the 8 grand, after all. Next you'll be telling us that FDIC insured savings accounts are a "redistribution", too. Where exactly do you think the money is coming from? | ||
| Spike |
The point was to illustrate the faulty logic of a stimulus, not to get hung up on a specific dollar amount. Try the example again with your $50 number. Borrow $50 from a creditor. Give that $50 to your neighbor to spend on goods. How much net gain has been attributed to your neighborhood? | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
And, the price per person ISN'T $50. For the recipient class, the bottom 50%, the price is -$8,000 with no requirement to EVER pay it back. The top 10% get to pay for 70% of that $8,000 tax credit, and the top 25% get to pay for 86% of that $8,000 tax credit. The original cost was $14B with another $10B for the extension bringing the total to $24B That's money that is no longer in the economy working. It's not starting new businesses. It's not hiring new employees. It's not developing new technologies. There are 1,326,116 tax paying households in the top 1% paying 40% of the tax. This means that of the $24B tax credit, each of those households paid $7,240 to support the tax credit. They would LOVE it if it only cost them $50 per household, but it doesn't work that way. | ||
| Hootowl |
"and the chain to hang the Chevy motor from the tree limb" Hmmm, small blocks dangling from trees...thanks for the decorating tip! | ||
| Reindog |
It is interesting that m2me and doug_s are the two Socialists here and the best that they can muster are emotional outbursts and hurling insults at those they oppose. This juvenile behavior is actually pretty sad. Is this what we can expect from a future dystopia? | ||
| Rocketsprink |
Wow. what a dim view of the American people you guys have. ftbstrd, I feel bad for you that you honestly thinki that most Americans want to sit &n their @sses and collect to huge unemployment checks. What about the former Buell employees that have yet to find work? I personally know some that can't find a job. do you lump them in the lazy group as well? goverment to leave you the hell alone? ever hear of the patriot act? who started that? I am pissed that hasn't been repealed | ||
| Court |
>>>>Is this what we can expect from a future dystopia? I'd like to append that with an observation about folks like Soros and Druckenmiller withdrawing from the U.S. markets. But the people and economy of the USA have an amazing capacity to invoke economic homeostasis. Unlike some countries where political climates evoke and act as catalysts in support of radical ideologies, the USA has always had an amazing propensity, in the presence of some of the idiots we allow long leashes under the heading of "personal freedom" to keep the political pendulum fairly well centered. We are about as far displaced from sound economic and social policy as I can recall in my lifetime. Everyone in the country wants to care for and help the less fortunate among us. Few of us, traditionally, have supported someone claiming religious rights were violated in order to claim $19,000,000 from an employer nor have we supported graduating an unqualified person from a pricey school and "compelling", under the guise of diversity, a firm to hire them. When the shit shakes out we are a good, just and fair people. We believe in earning it. Time was we were told "you can be anything you set your mind to". No one, in those days, qualified that by saying "but, if your hard work finds you earning $2.4M a year you will be deemed as "too lucky" and have some of the fruits of your labor diverted not only to those truly in need but to the lazy and to support the hospital bills of the likes of "Octomom". We, at present, are in deep shit and many with the capacity to change the course of our economic ship have been swatted on their collective noses too many times and are simply taking their toys, dollars, companies and ideas and retreating. Indeed is prompts thoughts of one of the famed dystopias. But . . . I'm betting, and it'll be at least a tough year out. . . as former Obama supporters flee having witnessed the initial impacts . . . that we'll see a return to more sane times. Wouldn't it be nice to get back towards an America that truly sees itself, and proudly, so as the best in the world, plum chucked full of ideas, drive and tenacity. Could be a while. | ||
| Reindog |
Rocco, Nobody here wishes unemployment on anyone. It took me thirteen months to find a job and it wasn't easy. We are not uncaring but the fact of the matter is that a number of "funemployed" people would rather collect their $475/week rather than bust their hump. That is human nature. For every anecdotal story you can dish out, I can return your volley with an anecdotal story that says just the opposite. This is an immutable law of government: "When the government subsidizes something, you will get more of that something". It doesn't matter if the subject is unemployment extensions or "clunker cash" or farm subsidies. I still owe you a beer or the beverage of your choice when we finally meet. -Tom. | ||
| Ceejay |
We can all find examples to defeat a specific agenda, the problem isn't those people. I think you're missing the point. What I believe Ft is getting at is similar to the old addage give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day, teach a man to fish, he'll eat well the rest of his life. We as a country continually give money out because people are unemployed, helping to pay for thier home for six months, a year, maybe even longer, almost as if we are hoping that they will become employed at some point. How will they do that if there aren't many jobs out there for them to get? Are there Lazy folks that don't want a job, definitely. Same as there are good folks looking for work that can't find it. I don't think the govt. is or should leave the problem alone, I think they are acting similar to our medical field, treating the symptoms instead of taking care of the problem. What I think Ft is stating in showing how much was spent on the the housing tax credit and the cash for clunkers is how much could have been spent on job creation. It makes no difference if I am able to make my payments for six months if after six months I'm still am unemployed. It's just delaying the inevitable. If our govt. would stop meddling and either help create jobs by decreasing taxes, decreasing tariffs, and by giving seed money, that 24B and for that matter 790B+ would go a lot further and may not even be needed. If GM was allowed to be go bankrupt, how long would it have been before they had offers to buy their equipment, buildings and shops to build cars. sure it may have been under another brand or even a bunch of them, but cars have to be made as people in this country demand them. The point being is that all the money that was and is being spent to prop things up is dependant on consumers becoming less worried and spending more again. How will they do that when they know that the unemployment runs out at the end of the year and there are still few job prospects out there becuase our govt. continually uses the money to prop the economy up instead of investing in it? |
