| Author | Message | ||
     Odie |
There are folks I work around at my airfield that truly believe that they should make as much as everyone that makes more than them. I asked if the people that make less should make as much as they do and they said no. I asked why should you make as much as I do? They don't have a good answer other than they want more money. You cannot change their bent logic. When all the Test Pilots on the contract got a $4 an hour raise three years ago you would've thought the world was coming to an end. The company can't hire enough Test Pilots so they need to entice them a little more. Everyone on the contract felt they were entitled to the very same raise. It was surreal. | ||
| Rocketsprink |
So back to the actual topic. What makes you think that H-D, if they do bail out of Wisconsin, will stay in the U.S? We have a nice cheap labor market south of the boarder with no EPA, or workers rights. What better place for a GREEDY bastard to move a company!? | ||
| Ustorque |
Perhaps I am just a simpleton and I don't understand economics, but here is my feeling on this matter. I think HD is purposely setting themselves up for a lose/lose situation. So that when all is said and done they can look their shareholders in the eye and say,"look at this last year, the only thing we can do is shift production to other countries". It's just a theory, but c'mon now, ya have to work pretty hard to f'up things this bad. Bad economy or not it takes a lot to throw a monkey wrench this big into all the gears of HD all at once! | ||
| Oldog |
I would ask the question another way, what has wadd-el done that commands that kind of bonus? sack Buell? give away MV close plants cowtow workers with threats? when HD's are made in mexico or pakistahn then what happens to the "brand" of " real american motor cycles ?" the engineer that caught the defects earned his money, but many engineers that do good work, catch mistakes etc, earn considerably less. I guess it depends, if the person paying his chit, agreed to pay him that amount to do the job then whats the beef? they agreed to it. Court has voiced an interesting premmis as has Ft about being valuable to the business that you work for. and If you think that you are under valued then you opt out and find a venue that will, pay agreeably. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
"Deserve" has nothing to do with it. Wandell in the open job market for a particular price because the BOD thought he would be a positive force inside of HD. Whether he does well or runs HD into a dark smoking crater, Wandell is owed that contract amount. A large part of his contract income is paid in stock NOT CASH. Fube up the company and your income suffers. Wandell is very similar to a professional football coach or pro athlete. They have a contract for payment with the assumption of performance. There are compensation bonuses based upon measured criteria (wins/rise in stock price/PE ratios). The methodology of how those criteria were met is up to the coach/CEO. If a coach got a win by sending his players out with switch blades and stabbed the players on the other team, we would be appalled at his method, but the end result would still be a win. He would receive his bonus. The question is how did the path taken to get from point A to "win" affect the company. Wandell appears to be a typical transitional "hatchet man". He is the villain that come in and makes sweeping, unpopular changes that make the company something awful. These changes are short term bad but long term allow the company to move in a different direction. The company then hangs all of that bad stuff blame around Wandell's neck and brings in a forward momentum foundation up solidification CEO who will be with the company for a while. HD was on the ropes before Wandell. They still are. They are just working to buy time and hope to weather the storm. The behavior so far isn't that different than someone who is selling off all their stuff at rock bottom prices just to get out from under the note. | ||
| Reepicheep |
My guess is they will go the motorcycle version "T-Shirt" route... Get the shirt made in some over seas sweatshop, get the tag made in the USA (with "made proudly in USA stamped on it", and have those sewn on. I suspect thats actually been going on for a while. | ||
| Bads1 |
Thats the last thing HD would want to play with is US custom's. This happened to a local here in Racine and he was a customer of mine. http://www.jsonline.com/news/29558234.html | ||
| Steveford |
Perhaps after Mr. Wandell finishes running Harley into the ground he could take a gig at BP as head honcho! I think he'd be the perfect fit. | ||
| Bads1 |
Why at BP ??? | ||
| Kenm123t |
Rocket your so upset hecause your the one thats GREEDY. In life people blame others with what they are doing and or feel. Fact Hog has share holders the true owners of the company The goal of any company RIO for the owners. Labor and Managment have to strike a blance of costs Versus profits If the manament makes changes to labors costs and gets poor QC and warranty rises and or Customer expierence suffer and sales slow and profits suffer. Then managment changes are made. If your a stock holder votr your stock. If your labor and you dont like the deal quit start your own business, Workers work there and unless they are stock holders dont feel like you have a right to input on what the company does, Its not yours It only exists for the benefit of the owners and or stock holders What do you call Coveting what us not yours ? If not Greed | ||
| Rocketsprink |
Yep. I'm greedy. You guessed it. What makes you so sure that labor is the problem at H-D? Do you honestly believe they charge $30,000 + for a bike because it costs that much to build? If so, why is a Sportster so cheap? You believe that Keith Wandell or any other CEO is worth the millions they make? Really? Why so? What do they have to risk other than being fired, with a golden parachute to cover their @ss 90% of the time. I covet nothing, but rather am sickened by the disregard for the people that help build the product and the company that these people have been chosen to oversee. I put the blame on H-D's financial department for the piss poor handling of the companies money and loans. THEY should be the ones shit canned. Always blame the worker. The one that puts together what they are given. If you're given shit to build, what do you expect to roll off the line? H-D, for years, made costumers wait for their bikes "to be built" while they had a warehouse full of them. Nice way to artificially drive up the price. Ya know, supply and demand. Now they have an over abundance of bikes they can't sell. It's the workers fault? Or managements? Greedy? No. Just sick and tired of people here blaming the American Worker for the failure of everything. That couldn't be more UN-AMERICAN. Shame on you all. Enjoy your Chinese made pieces of shit. Cause that's where it's headed and every one of you will be to blame. Start learning your new line for work...."would you like fries with that?" Amazing that you all defend the people that are selling your jobs down the road. That just amazes me. | ||
| Just_ziptab |
What would a big twin cost if there was no stock holders to please? Sportsters have X number of parts.Big twins have nearly the same number of parts........that have to be sourced and assembled. Logic sez the big twin parts would be cheaper because of the quantities that are ordered. The only difference would be the weight of the material to make the parts. Who's shitting who? Or are they selling Sportsters at a $20,000.00 loss? | ||
| Ustorque |
Greedy? No. Just sick and tired of people here blaming the American Worker for the failure of everything. That couldn't be more UN-AMERICAN. Shame on you all. Enjoy your Chinese made pieces of shit. Cause that's where it's headed and every one of you will be to blame. Start learning your new line for work...."would you like fries with that?" Amazing that you all defend the people that are selling your jobs down the road. That just amazes me. Thanks Rocco for speaking your mind, and i'll 2nd you 100%! | ||
| Court |
I always enjoy Rocco's thought and opinions. Although we differ on some things his thoughts are sincere, he clearly explains his position and can conduct a cogent and civil debate with some who holds divergent views. Rare qualities these days. Rocco what do you think would be a proper salary for Wandell? | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
They sell bikes for $30,000 because that's what the market will pay for them. ANY company sells their product for the maximum amount the market will bear. No less. Wandell gets $16M because that's what the market will bear. Workers get paid $45/hour because that's what the market will bear. Phillip Rivers gets $25.5M because that's what the market will bear. If you want the price of labor to go up, subsidize US labor through corporate tax breaks for US sourced labor. For a company that normally, in a good market, has $4.8B in sales, $16M (most of which is stock) is .33% of sales. HD has 7,300 employees. If the average income is $30,000/year, the total labor cost is $219,000,000 or 4.7% of sales. Which do you think has a bigger impact on the price of a motorcycle? Let's say that HD sold 200,000 motorcycles for 2009. Wandell represents $80/motorcycle in cost. The rest of the labor represents $1,100 in cost. These are just estimates. I'd bet the average income per year is higher than $30,000. Labor costs, including benefits and legacy costs is probably closer to triple that number. The only time a CEO's compensation means a damn thing is when someone wants to piss and moan about how much more one person makes than another. What exactly qualifies ANYONE on the line to run a company with $4.8B in sales? | ||
| Sifo |
I see something very funny here, both humorous funny as well as ironic funny. I don't see a discussion about the CEO and workers of HD. This is simply a microcosm of a larger discussion about political beliefs. One one side we have those that believe in free market values where workers and any level can negotiate for the best salary available. On the other side we have those that believe in controlled wages (I can only assume that the government would ultimately hold that power) for workers on all levels. For the life of me I don't think I will ever understand the desire to try a failed system yet one more time when history has shown us the despair that comes from that system. | ||
| Crusty |
You mean unrestricted Capitalism? Isn't that what brought about Unions in the first place? | ||
| Sifo |
There is nothing unrestricted about our capitalist system, hasn't been that way for many decades. What is being discussed is controlling compensation for non-union workers. That goes far beyond a discussion of unions. | ||
| Kenm123t |
What HD is doing is not doing what should be done to prosper long term. I know every one hates Wandell I have dealt his former company just plain evil. But that does not give any one reason to call him greedy he negoiated a contract with the Board. Just like the union did or will do soon. You should live by your contract as he lives by his. If his performance is not as promised he will be gone. He will get his severance per contract. If you wish to critize his performance of the company. That is totally fair and to be expected. Moving a company is not just labor costs it also includes taxes insurance shipping and a host of business regulations. I moved my home office and saved over 40 on one insurance policy and 60% on leasing costs. Harley has wasted their resources and market potential they are trying to correct the death spiral.How it turns out only time and the economy. If wandell saves it he is a hero if not a goat. He was brought in to be ruthless, What ever happens he will be gone in less than 5 years People want companies to care about them but they forget its a two way street. Buell was an exception the Elves were family the hard part is keeping that long term, As long as founder owner is there in person it works well becomes a very powerful tool for the mutual benefit of the workers and company, A critical and divisive work force will never be successful in the long term, Us vs them will kill the company or union. When the company gets to the point of feeling they cant work with labor. They move that is the only way to get out of a union other than closing and selling the assets. Labor and Companies need to learn they need each other to survive, Short term labor can win a battle long term they will loose they can play the game, But they dont own the playground or the marbles Airlines have Unions on the board United for example was owned by the unions at one time. The claim was Unions will look out for the company better than the other directors, They blew it and wouldnt adapt since the Union Board members could be voted out The company went chap 11 and was sold The main point is stop the hate of each other because of what another has or you dont have, If you dont like where you at in life change it, Go back to school Court has never stopped learning, Read Who moved my Cheese as a primer The world changes every day. My Company Motto is Evaluate Adapt and Overcome! The more you learn the more options you have. The one trick ponies are in trouble This is the knowledge based economy As Ron White has stated ( you cant fix stupid) I have stopped trying to | ||
| Court |
Off topic . . . but to answer the question.
Unrelated to the number of cars sold. All manufacturers compete in an effort to get 1,000 points. Ford showed up for the first time ever in 5th position. Having just bought a 2010 Ford Focus (#1 Quality Car of the Year) it's easy to see why. We now return you to your discussion . . already in progress.  | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
You closet socialists DO understand that with every change in generation, the Federal and State governments confiscate over HALF of the accumulated wealth of EVERY "rich" person, right? Not only do they pay the HIGHEST tax rates all along the way, but Uncle Sam takes 55% of everything over $2M and up to 40% of all retirement accounts and "redistributes" those funds. Many states also take a piece. TN takes 10% of everything over $2M. Had there not been a fluke this year and the Democrats lost the MA Senate race, the Steinbrenners would have owed $500M when George died. Had he died in 2011, his family would have owed $600M. It ain't like they can take it with them, and Uncle Sam already gets 60-70%. What else do you want? | ||
| Moxnix |
"What else do you want?" More? Perhaps all? Invested capital creates employment in the private sector which creates taxes for Uncle Sugar to spend. All economics is incentives or dis-incentives. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
At some point in time those with capital will take their ball and go home. You closet socialists can see what that looks like. Visit Detroit, Cleveland, Philadelphia, Buffalo,....... At some point in time the donor class has had enough and the recipient class is all that is left to turn off the lights. Since the median house price in Detroit is now $7500, it's more cost effective to buy up the land and turn it back to pasture land for cattle. | ||
| Rocketsprink |
FB, you sound like a broken record with your right wing talking points. Think for yourself for once. It's old, boring and quite predictable. With that, good luck to you all. See ya on the road. This place has jumped the shark and is no longer worth visiting. Seems like an extention of "Fox News"(insert laugh here) Rocco | ||
| Court |
Job losses at at an all time high and increasing. If I were in business, given the current economic climate, I'd avoid hiring at all costs. I'd outsource, to China if I had to, until I had some feel for who was in charge, what the rules are, what taxes will be and what the business climate was going to be going forward. The current group of clowns are ill educated, dishonest and have no hesitation to change rules and break laws to suit their agenda. Be glad you were not a GM bondholder in your 401(K) when they decided to "waive one time" the Federal laws of bankrucptcy to provide payments on a preferential basis. This is not unrelated to union membership falling like a rock. NYC used to be a "union town". No more and over 50% of the members of the union I belong to are out of work. Not unrelated to the reason I took other work. The good (and bad) news is that WHEN they work they are making >$150,000/yr. In addition, NYC taxes have sent a number of folks away. In addition to the highest taxes in the nation, as a matter of example, I also have to pay a "New York City Resident" tax for living and working in the city. Many folks, who say they are "in NYC" are actually in Long Island, NJ or CT. It's a shame but the government has slapped Wall Street, the single greatest creator of jobs in America as they invest your and my money, right on the nose. Of course Barack got his millions worth of contributions from Wall Street (and BP) before blaming them for the crisis the Barney Frank and Fannie Mae (exempt by the way from the recent banking "reforms") brought upon the nation. We are now largely owned lock, stock and barrel by the Chinese who, for the first time in history, are dictating the terms of trade. No one would have told Reagan "take it or leave it". We are being led by gutless folks with no guiding principles. It's not a Republican, Democrat or union issue. Like an alcoholic we'll continue in decline (I predict 2011 is going to be a doozie and have cancelled at least 2 major purchases and rearranged my investments and income) until we hit a bottom so bad it forces us to come together and once again act like grown ups ...... Like Americans. (Message edited by court on August 09, 2010) | ||
| Oldog |
Wandell appears to be a typical transitional "hatchet man". He is the villain that come in and makes sweeping, unpopular changes that make the company something awful. These changes are short term bad but long term allow the company to move in a different direction. The company then hangs all of that bad stuff blame around Wandell's neck and brings in a forward momentum foundation up solidification CEO who will be with the company for a while. HD was on the ropes before Wandell. They still are. so we close a division that was growing? to "concentrate on the brand", sounds like ford closing mecury (cutting off the nose despite the face ) gotcha on the contract for the hatchet man, fine and good, if they were in that much trouble why not do that in house ( promote from with in ?) the "labour is the problem" is an old and worn saw, suggested reading "unfit to manage" The MV debacle is a prime example, 20k for a bagger?, not that many have that kind of disposable income, Would not a dependable, and modestly priced standard make more sense? Instead were' building trikes, and parts bin customs... I find it laughable the "dark custons" simply substitute black paint for chrome guess which is cheaper? and they are "customs" so the command a premium price .... They have lost their way, they will bully the unions and get the consessions, or leave wisconsin, Wadd-El will be paid is chit as agreed to. In the end it does not matter I will never buy a harley unless I need an engine for my X1 and cant get one. Buell is what got me into the show room and keeps me going back if and when its gone, there will be no reason, don't suppose TB would sell suzuki? } | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
FB, you sound like a broken record with your right wing talking points. Think for yourself for once. It's old, boring and quite predictable. Likewise. Fortunately, I have the truth of working in the tax and wealth transfer environment on my side as opposed to union propaganda bull shit. Don't bother to address the conversation. Continue to conduct ad hominem attacks and run away. See you next union thread. | ||
| Slaughter |
If GOD wants Harley out of Milwaukee, Harley will be out of Milwaukee. If GOD is on the side of LABOR then LABOR will win out. HOWEVER, if GOD is on the side of MANAGEMENT, then LABOR is screwed. That's how it works. There, it's settled. You're ALL going to HELL for doubting GOD's work. Now, back to our sportbike discussions. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
so we close a division that was growing? to "concentrate on the brand", sounds like ford closing mecury (cutting off the nose despite the face ) gotcha on the contract for the hatchet man, fine and good, if they were in that much trouble why not do that in house ( promote from with in ?) the "labour is the problem" is an old and worn saw, suggested reading "unfit to manage" The MV debacle is a prime example, 20k for a bagger?, not that many have that kind of disposable income, Would not a dependable, and modestly priced standard make more sense? Instead were' building trikes, and parts bin customs... I find it laughable the "dark custons" simply substitute black paint for chrome guess which is cheaper? and they are "customs" so the command a premium price .... They have lost their way, they will bully the unions and get the consessions, or leave wisconsin, Wadd-El will be paid is chit as agreed to. In the end it does not matter I will never buy a harley unless I need an engine for my X1 and cant get one. Buell is what got me into the show room and keeps me going back if and when its gone, there will be no reason, don't suppose TB would sell suzuki? It doesn't matter whether Buell or MV was growing or not. They couldn't spend on either operation and terminated both at expense just to get out. Bad planning and strategy, but that's the course of HD and of a hatchet man. Hatchet men are rarely subtle or operate with any finesse. It ain't a scalpel. He will bludgeon away until the mission is accomplished or the BOD cries uncle. I have a funny feeling that when Buell is reborn that there will be some on former Buell dealer floors. Just a hunch. | ||
| Fast1075 |
Once again, Court speaks with the voice of reason. |
