| Author | Message | ||
     Hughlysses |
You have to wonder how much Rotax would have to change on the Helicon engine design to avoid a conflict with HD. Could it be something as small as increasing/decreasing the V angle 1 degree (which I'm sure would be a major engineering exercise due to cam drives, balancing shafts, etc.)? Whatever it takes, I'm sure someone's worked it out by now. | ||
| 2kx1 |
I would also wonder how many they (HD) said they would be buying. It certainly wasn't only 10,000. How much they had to pay to keep the rights to the motor or to get out of their contract. The 1190 is not just a bigbore kit that was developed by Erik Buell Racing, I am sure Rotax developed it to pass epa and dot and whaever other standards. Is hd paying them not to build it anymore,I don't think Aprilia is paying them not to build the v60. Does hd own it or does Rotax? Anyone? | ||
| Hootowl |
Hopefully HD will simply license the IP to Erik Buell Racing for a reasonable fee. If I were on HD's board I'd grab at any opportunity that presented itself to recoup some of the money I spent buying out the Rotax contract. Any cash I can get at this point from Buell is gravy. Doesn't cost me a dime and there is zero risk. Erik Buell Racing assumes all liability for warranty work. I'll bet you a dollar HD is willing to license most if not all of the Buell IP to Erik Buell Racing. Why wouldn't they? It's free money. Heck, my company licenses process technology to our competitors. Though they both build motorcycles, Erik Buell Racing is not competing with HD for customers, nor are Porsche and Yugo. | ||
| Macbuell |
If I was Erik I would try to figure out a way to do it without giving HD a penny. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Mr. Buell is smart enough not to cut off his nose to spite his face. | ||
| Swordsman |
I believe a roaring success of a comeback would be sweet enough revenge in itself. A nice little "This is how much you were holding me back, and it could have ALL been yours. Here's a few bucks." ~SM | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Mr. Buell is smart enough not to cut off his nose to spite his face. Exactly. yes, EB has every right to hate HD--like all of us--but smart politicking could very well be the right thing here. For sure, if he gives HD the middle finger, there is zero chance to possibly get some crucial intellectual rights HD holds. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
I'll bet you a dollar HD is willing to license most if not all of the Buell IP to Erik Buell Racing. Why wouldn't they? It's free money. Heck, my company licenses process technology to our competitors. Though they both build motorcycles, Erik Buell Racing is not competing with HD for customers, nor are Porsche and Yugo. You make complete sense. Selling Buell to Bombadier made complete sense yet HD declined. I don't think making sense (or cents) is HDs forte right now. PS...I really hope it plays out like your post says. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Seems to me EB needs investors. HD did a big disservice by selling off all the Buell factory equipment. There needs to be a pretty healthy investment to do anything on a mass production basis (ie so you and I can afford one. | ||
| Hootowl |
"Selling Buell to Bombadier made complete sense yet HD declined" You make complete sense. Unfortunately for all of us. | ||
| Hootowl |
Though I did preface all that with "If I were on HD's board..." | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
There could be significant benefits for ALL Buell owners (XB and Tubers). There is very little reason for Erik Buell Racing to support XB racing with ANYTHING. I feel that Erik WANTS to support all Buells. Given a positive and successful parts servicing agreement for 1125 components, others may follow. Apart from the engine components, most of the XB platform was produced outside of HD. XB motors could be sourced outside of HD. Rotax could just as easily build XB motors as 1125/1190s. There aren't any secrets HD would feel the need to keep on that motor. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Not to start a fight here, but the XB platform is a dying one. The Rotax motor (or another short stroke, liquid cooled V-2 or V-4 motor) is where the future lies. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
There is plenty of room for both the 1125 and XB platforms. Ask Ducati and Triumph. XB pricing could be maintained around the $9,500-$10,500 mark and STILL be profitable as the tooling and design expense continues to be amortized over time. Motorcycle design isn't linear with only one path. I've ridden both the 1125 and XB, and I'd spend my money on the XB. Odd that one of the hottest possible bikes to come out of Honda in a while is an Air-Cooled throwback. | ||
| Dynasport |
Wasn't all the tooling and everything needed to produce any bike sold by HD, so any bike Erik Buell Racing or any other entity wanted to produce would require a from scratch approach? | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
There was no engine manufacturing tooling at the East Troy plan as far as I know. I believe the XB motors were manufactured in the same location as the Sportster motors in Wauwatosa. | ||
| 46champ |
I can see an agreement coming between H-D and Erik Buell Racing to allow Erik Buell Racing to start producing the 1125 line or a follow on. They say all publicity even bad publicity is good but someone at H-D is going to realize that the sniping has got to be stopped. The fastest way to shut up all the malcontents is to let Erik Buell Racing produce something and allow the product to live or die in the market place. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
I've ridden both the 1125 and XB, and I'd spend my money on the XB. Well, you are in the nostalgic minority. The Rotax motor is far and away the better motor and Much more likely to accepted by the masses. At this point, EB will need to sell bikes. I can't see that happening with the XB motor as it got nothing but grief during its run. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I don't see the XB motor as a competitor to the 1125 any more than the Monster is a competitor to the 1098 or the Thruxton is to the Speed Triple. The same "nostalgic minority" are the ones who buy the air-cooled models offered by Triumph, Ducati, Honda, Suzuki, Buell, Harley, Ural, Norton, BMW, Moto Guzzi, Wakan, etc. There will be air-cooled offerings from every company as long as they are market viable and emissions compliant. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
I wonder if HD will be so keen to let EB use their revered Sportster engine in anything EB produces? | ||
| Hootowl |
I also like the XB/tuber powerplant. I ride on the street, generally well within the speed limit. It has power where I want it. I have never hit the rev limiter. Why would I want 130 HP at 10K when I don't use all the power I have now? There IS a market. That said, the XB platform was in production longer than the tubers were (not the hand built tubers) and I don't think anyone believes Buell should have kept building tubers. Well, maybe a few of us, but for purely nostalgic reasons. I very nearly bought a new XB recently, even though I could have picked up a CR or R for half the price. | ||
| Bob_thompson |
Hootowl said: "I also like the XB/tuber powerplant. I ride on the street, generally well within the speed limit. It has power where I want it. I have never hit the rev limiter. Why would I want 130 HP at 10K when I don't use all the power I have now?" I also agree Jeff but, I'm an older guy that had an M2 and now have an 1125R and I can say without reservation that its just a great adrenaline rush and quite a thrill that I enjoy, where practical, to grab a handful of throttle, accelerate to redline, usually only in first and sometimes second and then back off for a corner or just cruise for a while. I guess its something I got during the heyday of muscle cars and my drag racing experience. Is there ever "too much horsepower" Just control it. And its still a thrill! Stay safe always. Bob, the gray rider. (Message edited by bob_thompson on August 04, 2010) | ||
| Fresnobuell |
I want 130 HP at 10K when I don't use all the power I have now? YOu can say that about ALL the open class repli-racers, but guess what's selling? Seen BMWs sales reports lately for their new literbike? I thought the B2 was right on target--cheap man's Ducati with the performance and solid looks to back it all up. I don't see why EB should deviate from that plan. Short stroke, high HP Twins are plain awesome. The squids on the street don't know any better, but once you goto a few track days and see the high percentage of Ducatis it's apparent some people get it. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I don't begrudge the performance of the 1125 to anyone who wants it. Given the option, though, of a daily driver and street bike, I just prefer the tractable power of the XB platform. Saying that there is no need for the 1125 is no less wrong than saying that there is no need for the XB. There's a place for both. A dozen manufacturers have proven this fact. | ||
| Firebolt020283 |
I agree with the rest of the air heads on this one. I like my air cooled bike and hope that Erik in his future motorcycle brand does not forget the air cooled engines. I do not think he should stick to the Harley engines but a nice air cooled rotax would be nice. I even realize that it will not be his first offering as he is trying to re-estbilish his company and it's foundation is going to be sport bikes so you need to come out strong with a high performance bike to rival others top line bikes so a 1190 street bike is the natrual choice for his first new bike. But later in the progression I think it would be good to have an air cooled street oriented bike. Like others have said there are many companies who have air cooled sport bikes as well as top of the line liquid cooled bikes. Most notably Ducati I mean the monster and hypermoto are awesome bikes and they are both air cooled but you still have the race bikes and such which are liquid cooled. | ||
| Hootowl |
"YOu can say that about ALL the open class repli-racers, but guess what's selling? Seen BMWs sales reports lately for their new literbike?" No question, that's the hot seller. If I had 5-6 bikes, one would definitely be a high strung literbike. Since I can only justify one, I have a nice low maintenance standard with lots of low end grunt. Lots of people have only one bike, and it is a high HP literbike, and that's fine, that's their decision. But that doesn't negate the fact that there is a market for an air cooled bike. If they didn't sell, no one would make them. | ||
| Reepicheep |
The other factor is fuel economy. The fact that my Uly makes 100 HP at the crank (industry standard winky here) and still gets 45 MPG rocks! A big part of that is fast warm ups of an air cooled bike. I can outrun a corvette while out mpg'ing a Tercel. | ||
| Hootowl |
"Seen BMWs sales reports lately for their new literbike?" Who wants to buy a sportbike? - Keith Wandell. | ||
| Froggy |
146hp crank and 54mpg best (45avg) for my waterheads.... | ||
| D_adams |
I have almost 140 hp at the wheel with my 1125, it gets wrung out to redline almost daily, and it _still_ gets 40 mpg average. You might outrun a 1990's vette, mine will outrun the newest one. :-) |
