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Fast1075
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 03, 2010 - 06:28 am: | 
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As said earlier in this thread...if you were german, male and could pick up a rifle, you were required to fight. If you had a physical or mental problem so you couldn't fight, you could end up being "removed" so as not to "contaminate" the nazi ideal. |
Spiderman
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 03, 2010 - 07:38 am: |
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As said earlier in this thread...if you were german, male and could pick up a rifle, you were required to fight.
Once you remove the 'If you had a' statement you could switch German with American easy.
Both sides had drafts, one a little harsher than the other. But that does not make a German soldier a Nazi... |
Trojan
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 03, 2010 - 08:07 am: |
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Not all Germans were Nazis during the war or the 15 years preceeding it, but it was very difficult to not belong to the party. Non members were routinely denied jobs and basic freedoms and even the slightest criticism of the regime could lead to the concentration camp or worse 
If you get a chance, read a book called 'Alone in Berlin' by Hans Fallada. This is based on a true story after Fallada was given Gestapo records after the war by the Russians, and tells the story of small time acts of resistance against the nazis and the level of fear of the general population.
By the way, if you are looking for Nazis....the current Pope was a fully paid up member of the Hitler Youth (true!)  |
Aptbldr
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 03, 2010 - 08:23 am: |
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It was the bureaucrats, not Hitler, according to Architects of Annihilation.
Book's a great history, interesting perspective & current read. As a builder, bureaucracies are high on my pet-peeves list. |
Trojan
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 03, 2010 - 09:04 am: |
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It was the bureaucrats, not Hitler
Hitler was in charge of the bureaucrats remember  Albert Speer (Hitler's architect) was a Nazi throuth and through but wouldn't do anything unless it was sanctioned first by Hitler. |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 03, 2010 - 10:42 am: |
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Apologist for Hitler? Wow. It's damn frightening what some are willing to believe. Be careful what "history" you believe. Hurricane Katrina was GWB's doing, but Hitler was really not so bad?
I guess since Hitler remains to this day to be one of the most successful western Socialists, some are eager to recast him as not so bad. But even the idea of his success domestically is full of holes. He depended on continuing conquest and theft to keep his "utopia" going. |
Aptbldr
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 03, 2010 - 01:12 pm: |
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Blake cracks me up. |
R100rs
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 03, 2010 - 03:21 pm: |
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the current pope was a fully paid up member of the hitler youth.as required by german law for every german boy 14 years of age or older after dec.1939.his father was a enemy of nazism as it was opposed to the catholic faith,and opposed his sons being members of the hitler youth until threats from political officers made him succumb. |
Brumbear
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 03, 2010 - 08:48 pm: |
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If I lived in a country that was in a depression as bad as pre 1935 Germany was in and some guy came in and gave everybody Jobs cars and made me believe in my life again. I might have joined as well. Hind sight is an easy thing.
The Nazi leaders were the scrurge of the earth not the everyday Joe's who finally got decent jobs food and health care and a car and a decent road to drive them on fair labor wages and a couple days a week off.
Sounds pretty good to more than a few of us right now eehhh. Ask yourself if you were in the spot most of the German folks were in and slowly things got better and better would you mind?
Think about that really hard before you answer don't post just think and you will see it isn't so hard to believe in something when you have next to nothing.
There wasn't even a war on till 1939 thats 6 years of a political party gaining momentum and when they went to war for 3 years they were unstopable you might begin to believe the load of crap your leaders are selling wouldn't you? |
Trojan
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 04, 2010 - 04:49 am: |
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There wasn't even a war on till 1939 thats 6 years of a political party gaining momentum and when they went to war for 3 years they were unstopable you might begin to believe the load of crap your leaders are selling wouldn't you?
There wasn't a world war until 1939 but the Germans had by that time invaded part of France (Alsace Lorraine) Austria and annexed the Sudetenland (Czechoslovakia). The only reasons there wasn't a war before 1939 was that the politicians wanted to appease Hitler and thought that they could limit his territorial ambitions, but more importantly because opposing countries (Mainly Britain and France) had no modern standing armies to fight him with
After the first world war most European countries including Britain couldn't afford to keep a large standing army and there wasn't the will of the people to keep one either after 4 years of horror 1914-1918.
Germany started re-arming in the 1920's in violation of the Versailles treaty, but Britain and France did nothing to stop him until it was too late.
As for the economic prosperity Hitler and the Nazis brought to Germany. The whole of Europe was suffering at the same time but nobody else (with the exception of Italy) decided that a fascist (not Socialist despite the party name!) government was the answer. The Nazi party didn't even get elected into full power but took full control once they got just a foot in the door of the Reichstag. It could be argued that the treaty of Versailles almost encouraged a fascist party to take control in Germany, but at the end of the day the people had to take responsibility for the government they got and could have quite easily stopped Hitler in the early days if they had so wanted. Having a car and a job is no excuse for ignoring what was happening around them. |
Aptbldr
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 04, 2010 - 07:56 am: |
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Competition to industrialize after WWI was apparently global and more costly than the Cold War.
Both Germans and Russian governments developed, refined, and implemented rational plans to reduce human populations by tens of millions to push their nations to modern efficiency (and the resulting powers).
And, Germany was determined to never starve again. |
Brumbear
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 04, 2010 - 08:20 am: |
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The point I am trying to make here is what does an average citizen in the 1930's know or care about political agenda's other than the obvious.There was no media like today.
Trojan: There was also the "annexation" not invasion of Austria to some extent the balkans, Finland, but they were by and large bloodless so I am not sure the average person is to concerned about that.
Also that would be like asking England and France why they didn't in 1939 declare war on the Soviet Union as well as Germany. After all they both invaded Poland.
And England and France to whom I believe you were refering to were no where near as depressed as Germany in the period up to the world depression in the early 30's when everyone including the U.S. was effected.
I am not a scholar just a high school grad but I think you can see my point by asking yourself this question? If you live in N.J. do you know or care whats going on in PA ?
I don't I am to busy trying to keep my head affloat here and if there were no news except"propaganda good news" why would I ever care? |
46champ
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 04, 2010 - 09:53 am: |
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France could have put an end to the whole thing when Germany moved west of the Rhine in 1936. That is the simplified version, but the French government wasn't sure they could get the socialist infested army to fight. |
Trojan
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 04, 2010 - 09:55 am: |
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I am not a scholar just a high school grad but I think you can see my point by asking yourself this question? If you live in N.J. do you know or care whats going on in PA ?
By the middle of the 1930's most of the 'average citizens' of the German population knew about the concentration camps and had a pretty good idea what had happened to their 'missing' Jewish/Gypsy/sick/politically incorrect neighbours. Economic pressures may have made it easier for the general German public to swallow what was happening but they were certainly aware and so were complicit. Very few brave Germans stood up for their beliefs against the Nazis but at least they had the courage of their convictions to do so (and suffered for them as well).
Whether Austria was 'annexed' or 'invaded' really depended on your political point of view at the time I think. I'm pretty sure that if I got 'annexed' by France I'd consider it an invasion regardles of economic niceties. The annexation of the Sudetenland certainly wasn't bloodless (nor was Austria) as tens of thousands of citizens were sent to camps following the 'Anschluss' either for their religious or political beliefs or maybe just because they were not 'up to Aryan standards' .
The allies ignoring of the 'agreement' between Stalin and Hitler was just one of a series of shocking betrayals by the French and British, who had originally promised to launch an offensive against Germany 'within 15 days' if they invaded Poland.
Unfortunately neither country did so in 1939 despite what the promised they Poles, and the allies needed Russia as a potential ally more than they needed to fight communism at the time. Had Britain & France carried out their treaty obligations properly then the war as we know it may have been averted completely or reached a completely different conclusion.
Russia didn't actually invade Poland until late September 1939, 3 weeks after war was declared on Germany by France and Britain. It may have turned out very different if the Nazi/Soviet pact had held for the duration of the war, and Russia may well have become an enemy rather than an ally if Hitler hadn't launched his surprise attack on Russia in 1941. This changed the entire course of the war and brought Russia onto the allied side of course. If this hadn't happened I doubt if the result of the war would have been anything like we now see.
You have to remember that Poland had ceased to exist as a country for many years until re-created following WWI, and had previously been divided equally amongst Germany, Austria and Russia. Many Europeans during the 1930's thought that the Versailles treaty was unfar to Germany and didn't think there was much wrong with these countries once again laying claim to 'their' parts of Poland especially as they contained large populations of 'ethnic' Germans and Russians.
Finland was a lot more complicated, but allied themselves to Germany more though a fear of Russia than any love of Nazism. Finland has always been frightened of invasion (again) by Russia and in the 1930's this looked increasingly likely under Stalin. |
Brumbear
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 04, 2010 - 08:14 pm: |
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Troj I would would love to discuss WWII but I don't want to thread jack to much. The main stream German public supported Hitler much the same way we support our various government we send a little contribution or go to a rally.
I can tell you the Soviets did much the same with their Jewish population and anyone they deemed inadequate. They raped and pillaged just as much as the Germans but they won and history favors the winner, or did they where is the Soviet Union today and where are the Germans?
I see it this way if The US Government sees fit to deal with the likes of Krupps who's guns were fitted in the mighty Panzers and Sturmgeshutze of the Heer. They manufacter the smooth bore 120mm in the Abrahms Tank I think Aldi is a safe bet |
Trojan
| | Posted on Thursday, August 05, 2010 - 04:33 am: |
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I totally agree. In fact if anyone is looking for modern day nazi sympathisers and fascists then it is the younger generation they need to look at and not the old age pensioners left over from WWII unfortunately.
There sems to be a growing underclass of nazi organisations in a lot of Eastern European countries especially right now and Russia in particular.
Most European countries persecuted their Jewish populations over the centuries. Russia and Poland were probably the worst but nobody was above it. During WWII the French and certain other puppet governments exceeded the quota they were set by the Nazis for Jews to be 'resettled' and went about the task with some considerable zeal unfortunately. |
Bobby_fletcher
| | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 06:36 am: |
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One word in the title......
"Nazi"
and all this |
Fast1075
| | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 08:56 am: |
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Fellows, don't forget that Trojan lives in GB where the bombs and V-1's and V-2's fell on his family during the war...and his history information is informative and accurate....now back to the discussion. |
Trojan
| | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 09:07 am: |
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One word in the title......
"Nazi"
and all this
Unfortunately that one little 4 letter word stirs up some very deep emotions and feelings amongst a lot of people. If you put it in a thread title you'll be sure to get many many responses every time
Fellows, don't forget that Trojan lives in GB where the bombs and V-1's and V-2's fell on his family during the war...
My Grandfather was a police officer in London during the war. When the bombs were dropping he was digging people out |
Moxnix
| | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 02:20 pm: |
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When I lived in Germoney, only shopped at Aldi when I had to. Didn't shop at Safeway over there, either. There are Aldi stores in Missouri, pallets of goods, cheap, bag your own groceries. Germany went through a "Die Schuldigungen" era, where their baby boomers acknowledged the guilt of their parents for atrocities. While at school in Wuerzburg, there was a biergarten overlooking the town, near the Cappella chapel, where old guys with a "schmertz" (fencing scar) on their cheek would hold court, scowl at everyone, and dream the old days. They looked too wealthy to shop at Aldi, too grumpy to mix with anything less than the carriage trade.
Just last night I got an email with attached clipping from the 1924 Berlin phone book, from a jewish woman (old friend) in Seattle who stopped in to visit when I lived in that city for some time, asking for a translation as she is doing some genealogy and found some family members listed. Okay, so and so was a doctor specializing in diseases of the lung, yadda, yadda. Made me think of the time I met some German there who wanted to know if I was connected to the US Army and could I get him onto the American golf course. I wasn't and couldn't. Then he started bitching about jews. Okay, not all the German baby boomers felt guilty. Trojan has the best take on the metabolism of the Euro social dynamics. |
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