| Author | Message | ||
     Whatever |
Ok, maybe I am breaking copyright laws but this put a big grin on my face last night... "25 YEARS AGO AUGUST 1985 Wow! How apropos: This month, we're working on a comparo including the new 2010 HD Iron 883. Twenty-five years ago, our cover story was 'The Sportster Chronicles: 1957-1986, Evolution of an American Dream.' I have to say, with a few mostly cosmetic differences, the new Sportster parked outside our back door right now looks almost exactly like the Evolution 883 on the August, 1985, cover. The new bike looks as cool as it did then -cooler, even- and it performs just as underwhelmingly as ever. In fact, '85 was the year the Sportster shrank back from the 1000cc to the 883 of the '57 original, supposedly to dance around higher insurance rates for bikes bigger than 900cc. Yours for $3995." Gotta love these guys. Tell it like it is...  | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
HD sells heritage. It's a remarkably successful marketing plan. Until heritage is no longer what sells. | ||
| Americanmadexb |
Thats Ultra Heritage Softail Deluxe CrossBone Classic to you Fatty! | ||
| Reg_kittrelle |
FB.... It's not that heritage no longer sells, it's that heritage of those who are mostly dead no longer sells. What Harley (IMHO) has failed to do is update the heritage. In one of the last issues of American Rider I wrote a column titled, "Harley needs to get its head out of its past." The response to this was very large and passionate ... and evenly split. Half were preparing tar, feathers, and a lynching platform. The other half was all high-fives. Harley's problem ... and it has been for a couple of decades, at least... is how do they update the product line without pissing off the core buyer. They have erred so on the side of their idea of the core buyer so as to become a caricature of themselves with some of their products, i.g. the Iron, Nightster, and 48. This is particularly so as re the Iron 883. Harley had better hope that the buyer of this motorcycle actually discovers that their are other motorcycles out their with suspension components that work. What is largely ignored here (Badweb) is that Harley also makes some excellent motorcycles in their chosen niches. A prime example of the is the Electra Glide Limited. This niche may not be the ride of choice hereabouts, but that does not negate the Limited as a good motorcycle. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Harley makes REALLY good bikes. The best way to describe it is that Harley produces the absolutely best lutefisk. If lutefisk is what you want, HD is where you go. If not, the quality of that lutefisk is irrelevant. The Limited is the very best touring bike HD makes. Best value. Best quality. I wouldn't own one. Not my flavor of bike. I like the "48". If I had $12,000 to spend, it wouldn't be on that bike. It's not the bike's fault. I just don't want any lutefisk. The problem is that for the last 30 years, the HD buyer has been groomed to reject updates in product. The marketing department shows pictures of old bikes in black and white along side the brand new model. At our shop, we have two very well preserved classic Harleys. There are very large murals of classic Harleys. HD has trained the customer on what is and is not a "real" Harley. The real shame of it is that those "classic" Harleys were state of the art at the time of their release. Those black and white photos were of people enjoying the absolute pinnacle of design and engineering in 1948. I would really love to see a new Harley Davidson that pushes the envelope, that seeks out the best and brightest engineers, and creates state of the art products produced by the best that America has to offer. To bad that that corporate aim was forgotten. Now, it's a multi-billion dollar nostalgia marketing organization.  All this said from someone who has had the honor of working for Tom Bumpus serving some of the best and most loyal customers to our dealership and to the brand. I love the people who honor us with their business and their presence. I just see that there could be so much more. HD owes these people more than what they are getting. | ||
| Gunut75 |
Well put Fatty! | ||
| Reg_kittrelle |
My goodness, FB, we might actually be in complete agreement. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
My goodness, FB, we might actually be in complete agreement. Shit. I think that's one of the signs of the apocalypse.  | ||
| Ratbuell |
HD has trained the customer on what is and is not a "real" Harley. ..and the problem is, the "real" Harley being promoted (and accepted by the HD 'lifestyler') has next to NOTHING to do with what quite a few people want out of a MODERN MOTORCYCLE. This is where Harley is missing the boat. They tried "cutting edge", and the VRSCR Street Rod was an incredible motorcycle. Reasonable ergos, decent handling, great power and torque (for a porker)...but the whole thing was contrary to HD's image, so they killed it. Quickly. And seem to be doing their best to either turn the rest of the V-Rod family into some form of watercooled Softail with a fat tire...or send them to the grave along with the Street Rod. Yes, the Ultra Limited is an excellent cruiser. It's heavy, it carries a ton of stuff, has good torque, great Brembo brakes, and nearly as many gadgets as a 'Wing. But Harley has spent so long building up that niche as the "Ultimate Motorcycle"...they can't market anything else, because it goes contrary to that image. Even if it has HD on the tank, they just don't seem able to do it. Which is a shame, because what little bits of tech that do sneak out to market (great EFI systems, and excellent braking componentry on VRSC and Touring bikes are just a couple) show that the ability to *build* is there. *somebody* understands it. Unfortunately, I think it's a janitor...because those couple small rays of hope seem like they got onto production bikes purely by accident. Before Harley can evolve their product line...they need to evolve their customer base. They need to "prep" them that there ARE other kinds of motorcycles out there, and they are equally as rewarding to own and ride...if not more so. Different does NOT equal wrong. But in Harley-speak...it does. And that is a shame. | ||
| Ratbuell |
....and it woulda been TOO cool if CW, in the same article, compared an RS1200 to an 1190RR....just for perspective on "corporate progress", of course  | ||
| Doerman |
the absolutely best lutefisk Interesting comparison. Norwegians in Norway despise it. They's much rather have pizza. Nostalgic Norwegian-Americans (myself excluded) hail it as a food of the Old Norse gods. In reality, it is dried cod, reconstituted in lye and boiled beyond recognition. It has definitely fallen in dis-favor in the old country, save a few diehards. I think you picked an excellent analogy in lutefisk. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
What's interesting is to see the progress of every other brand over the years compared to HD. Yes, many of these brands have "classic" models, but there are modern offerings that out number the classic model sales. Here's the flagship for Triumph for 1948:  1948 Speed Twin Here is Harley's flagship for 1948:  1948 FL These were the pinnacle of what both companies had to offer. While both companies have improved their products over time, only Triumph of these two has enhanced the performance envelope of their products. These two bikes could have raced one another in head to head competition. Now that same race would pit a steam locomotive against the Saturn V. I know racing isn't everything, but racing is simply a competitive display of engineering prowess. Why would anyone want to demonstrate that? | ||
| Whatever |
HD Street Glide..... 67.4 HP @ 4850 RPM HD XR1200..... 83.6 HP @ 6970 RPM HD Dyna Wide Glide..... 63.3 HP @ 4730 RPM HD Iron 883..... 44.5 HP @ 5850 RPM Yup, sure makes me want to rush out and buy one... | ||
| Whatever |
I am Norweigan... and I hate Lutefisk... btw...  This is also not a thread implying anything about HD owners and riders... just sayin... HD = not MY cup of tea... | ||
| Greg_e |
45 horsepower out of that big engine? I'm sure it has torque to spare but really? | ||
| Chadhargis |
While there are LOTS of Harley riders who tour and ride their bikes near and far, there are far more that use them for nothing more than chrome covered butt jewelry. They could care less how much power it makes. Don't know, and don't want to know. The people who tour on them are primarily interested in cruising. I know, I've been stuck behind gaggles of them, riding in stagger formation in groups of at least 50 riders. They are typically going 5 to 10mph UNDER the speed limit and obstructing traffic....but....that's what they enjoy. Who am I to chastise them for it? You don't need 180hp to cruise at 35mph (or even 70mph). I work with a guy who used to own a CBR1000 and decided he needed to slow down a bit. So he bought a Star something or other cruiser and said it was really nice. Performed well and never gave him a moments trouble. He recently sold it and got a Harley. He said there is no comparison. The way the Harley "feels" is just want he wanted. He said it's not as fast as his Star, but it's "fast enough". I've ridden a Harley a few times, and for what they are I really like them. I wouldn't buy one at this point in my life, but one day I might. Now, if someone gave me one, I'd keep it and ride it every now and them. Sort of like I do my scooter. When I just want to go putter around and relax, I hop on my scooter. It's fun. 125cc of fun. (Message edited by chadhargis on July 11, 2010) | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
+1 Chad Build quality and ride of the other cruisers simply doesn't compare to a Harley. In 1948, there was no difference between a "cruiser" and a "sport bike". They were one in the same. "Younger" buyers want sport. Harley doesn't offer "sport" (the XR doesn't count). Therefore, Harley is trying to attract flies (younger buyers) with the vinegar instead of honey. Looks like some other company is going to be marketing Harley's honey. | ||
| Whatever |
Come on now you are picking on chrome butt jewlery... I am so offended...  | ||
| Delta_one |
They could care less how much power it makes. my Harley dealer has a very exclusive 100HP club, lots of guys try, few make it. horsepowerclub but I think fatty nailed it on the head, twice. no need to repeat what was already stated by him. its just not my flavor kool-aid (lutefisk is a yucky flavor for kool-aid anyway maybe an acquired taste? LOL) those that like it are fine by me, it takes different strokes... Now that same race would pit a steam locomotive against the Saturn V. or a rocket III  } | ||
| Xbrad9r |
my view of Buell's vision vs. H-D's vision. Buell= mass centralization, chassis rigidity and low unsprung weight. H-D= Shirts, stickers and chrome. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
The Rocket III is modern and powerful...... and is friggin' UGLY!!!! | ||
| Jaimec |
I will give Harley their due for ONE thing: They still make the most effective self-cancelling turn signals of any bike I've ever ridden. Yep... that's about the only good thing I can say about them. Sorry. | ||
| Xbrad9r |
I also think a bike should lean more when ridden than when parked. There are lots of good riders that ride Harleys and put tons of miles on them but, lots of Hogs log more miles on a trailer than on their own rubber. Many Harleys are parade queens that are revved more at red lights and right before they kill the engine than at any time during the ride. I have owned two Harleys myself in the past and the one thing that drove me to the point of ridding myself of them and getting out of the "club" was all the people I would meet at gas stations/stores/work in their truck with a Harley sticker on it and they would walk over to me with their Harley shirt on and say "nice bike" (or something similar) and I would say what kind do you have and they would tell me they have never owned one but they're gonna get a hog one day...UUGGGHHHHHH ! Why on earth do you have a sticker and a shirt if you don't and/or never have owned one. The thing I like about Buell, (or Triumph or Ducati or virtually any other make) if someone has a sticker on their vehicle or is wearing clothing with Buell, etc. logo on it and you ask them what kind they ride a great motorcycling conversation almost always begins. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
The motors are fantastically smooth with great transmissions, sorted out fuel mapping, and good frames. The new 2010 FL frame is the best ever and provides a bike that handles, for a 900lb monster, like it's on rails. I like the "parade setting" that allows you to turn off the rear cylinder in order to reduce the amount of heat on the rider and passenger in stop and go traffic. Wish I'd had that on the Uly a time or two. The suspensions are well sorted out as well as the ABS system. There is not a Harley on the floor that isn't stacked with the very best design features available within the narrow confines of the heritage styling box allowed. If you took all these features and integrated them into a sporting chassis with a modern powerplant, you'd have a bike that could compete on the world stage. No matter how pretty and well designed the dress, on a pig, the pig is still just a pig. One other facet I've noticed in working many hours on the floor, many of the folks who buy a Harley WOULDN'T FIT on anything else. These are folks who are 6'7" 385lbs. I've thought several time "Holy Crap that is a mountain of a man", and I ain't no wilting flower. For folks who don't care about pushing the performance envelope, a Harley is about the only bike they can fit on. Add a similarly sized co-rider, and you HAVE to have a 900lb monster. | ||
| Whatever |
Now you are picking on fat people...  | ||
| Danger_dave |
Yup - the only buell I would ever consider buying is the XB12X because it's the only one that fits - though I'd like a taller seat. There are quite a few Hogs that are very comfortable, I also find the performance satisfactory for street use and I like the looks a lot. And true to Harley marketing - I don't really give a f*** what anyone else thinks about it. :-) | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Not at all. These folks aren't "fat". These folks are enormous. I think they bend girders around trees for a living. | ||
| Xbrad9r |
hey Whatever, I think I see the female version of that guy pass by my workplace each day on a scooter very similar to that...and she always wears a dress too. The other day I even saw her with a passenger and I was thinking this must be an episode of "myth busters" or "candid camera". | ||
| Fahren |
Ewww. | ||
| Xbrad9r |
By the way, I am 6'6" and normally in the 245-265 lb range. The Uly fits me nicely and my Firebolt was also comfortable enough for me to enjoy riding it more than either of the Harleys I had owned. I still rode with lots of my Harley buddies when I had the Bolt and at almost every stop people would come up and talk to me, brag on the bike and ignore the others...it would drive them nuts and would make my day. |
