| Author | Message | ||
     Orngm2 |
In this month's issue of Motorcycle Classics there is an excellent article on the 1973 Norton Monocque chassis race bike designed and built by Peter Williams. Interestingly enough, VERY similar in concept to the XB frame in that the fuel was in the frame... check it out!! Even the look of the frame is similar, made out of stainless(!). | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
Coool! I'll have to git that one. Despite the sick cost, that magazine has found its way to my pile several times. | ||
| Tramp |
Just so you're aware- the Norton's "isolastic" commando frame was the most likely inspiration for the 1990s Buells...and Eric's earlier isolastic iteration, the Harley Davidson FXR, which features isolators analogous to early Buell tubers....same HD part #, in fact. Take a close look at a Commando's rear isolator plates | ||
| Tramp |
Incidentally, it's Monocoque (not monocque) , as in the Norton JPS (John Player Special) | ||
| Spiderman |
TEHE you said coque... FXR, which features isolators analogous to early Buell tubers....same HD part #, in fact. You know why... Cause Erik invented the FXR frame and isolation system  | ||
| Toronto_s3 |
You mean Eric Buell didn't invent fuel in frame? I thought he had a patent and everything. I thought Eric was the genius behind fuel in frame technology. Instead some British guy devised it in a pub and built it in a shed. Doesn't seem quite so innovative anymore I guess. | ||
| Spiderman |
LOL If you are going to insult the man at least spell his name right jeeez... Erik never claimed to invent fuel in the frame. He does claim to have invented a way to make it work, look good and put it into a package that mass centralizes the bike... Him and his engineering team also designed a safety feature in there that rips the steering stem away for saftey... Or that coulda been Eddie? | ||
| Froggy |
Buell isn't the only one making fuel in frame bikes, the Mad Ass has it too. Also, Buell never claimed to invent the perimeter brake either. | ||
| 86129squids |
I'm watching "Electraglide in Blue" and typing this.  | ||
| 4cammer |
Peter Williams is a very interesting fellow, and a pretty decent rider as well. | ||
| Lemonchili_x1 |
Norton JPS Monocoque racer... droool... I'll be hunting down that issue! Are there any new pics of the bike in the article? Do any of the monocoque bikes still exist? There are not many pictures of the bike and it's one of those that I'm always keen to find out more about.  Peter Williams is a very interesting, extremely talented man. Like Erik he is a very talented engineer and an accomplished road racer. Among other things he was 4th in the '67 500cc Grand Prix Championship racing a Matchless, and won the 1973 Isle of Man F750 TT on the monocoque bike. I believe he was one of the first racers to use alloy wheels and also disc brakes. An article on the MCN website says he's involved in the new Norton company. | ||
| 46champ |
Fuel was in the frame of Boris Murray Sportster drag bike frames about 1970. Most people quit using the frame for fuel after a few years because of rust in the tank. | ||
| Fast1075 |
Fuel in frame on dragbikes is old hat..been around as long as I can remember. | ||
| Trojan |
The Norton Monocoque was many years ahead of its time and kept the ageing parralel twin engine competitive way after it should have gone to the knackers yard. Peter Williams was (and still is) a very talented engineer who was the first to introduc a lot of features that we take for granted these days such as disc brakes and lightweight cast alloy wheels on race bikes. The Monocoque Norton was the pinnacle of development for the JPS bikes of the early 1970's and although it ultimately led to the Cosworth BOTT racer it was the last we saw of Norton in international competition until the Rotary bikes of the 80's.  Peter Williams is currently involved in TTX electric race bike projects and has designed a unique 'clam shell' frame concept in conjunction with Lotus Engineering that he is trying to get into production. | ||
| Hootowl |
"Or that coulda been Eddie?" Screw Eddie Buell. I've asked him to sign my fender like four times, and he keeps ignoring me. | ||
| Tramp |
"Cause Erik invented the FXR frame and isolation system" Yep- that's why I said that in the previous post....except he didn't invent the isolation system- he borrowed that idea from Norton. Like I said- check out the isolastics on a a Norton Commando...looks very similar to the same part on a Buell RR1200...or S2 | ||
| Spiderman |
Not really, I restored a old Norton Commando and the Isolastic system used is pretty much rubber dognuts with a metal sleeve that the bolt goes through. There was a front and rear mount that used 4 rubber dognuts each. Nothing on that Norton I touched was similar to an S2 or any Buell other than the air cooled engine and that it was a motorcycle LOL | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
The Norton doesn't use the engine as a stressed member of the fame with tiebars to keep the movement on one axis, does it? | ||
| Spiderman |
OK this will be my last thread jack post LOL -large.jpg) As you can see the large vertically mounted tubes in the front an back, those are where the dognuts are mounted. And there is only one other mount that is mounted to the head. It is a metal tab that has rubber spacers that attach it to the top of the frame... | ||
| Spiderman |
The Norton doesn't use the engine as a stressed member of the fame with tiebars to keep the movement on one axis, does it? No | ||
| Court |
>>>>system used is pretty much rubber dognuts with a metal sleeve that the bolt goes through. Pretty much the same "doughnut" that my 4.5 HP Husky motor sits on in the 1952 Cushman. | ||
| Spiderman |
"doughnut" LOL sorry the dognut is a local inside joke. There is a doughnut shop across from a MC shop that has DOGNUTS on their sign LOL | ||
| Hootowl |
I believe Buell patented the uniplanar mounting system, not the rubber isolator mounting system. | ||
| Tramp |
reread my post (#3), and then look again at the photo....note that I mention the "rear" isolator plates. Now look immediately below the oil tank in the Nortie pic. When I first started running Norties (I'm not a big fan of them, by the way) in '77, I found the rear plates very unique, as as I did the featherbed frame, which BMW then used (in their own iteration) on the /5 and later R-scoots. Work on a LOT of various brands over 35 years, and suddenly the similarities, rather than the differences, reveal themselves. | ||
| Tramp |
And before further 'creative misreading' surfaces, note that I do NOT cite the Commando as having used a featherbed (much as I never implied that Buell patented any isolator system, or that they Nortie mill acted as a stressed frame member). | ||
| Hootowl |
Tramp, it was this statement that threw me: "Yep- that's why I said that in the previous post....except he didn't invent the isolation system- he borrowed that idea from Norton." 'Course, I was already in a bad mood from reading Toronto's post about how Buell never really invented anything. I should just ignore him, I know. Sorry if I came across in a bad way. | ||
| Tramp |
Not at all! I just didn't want the post to snowball into a false notion ...not that THAT ever happens!  | ||
| Glitch |
Work on a LOT of various brands over 35 years, and suddenly the similarities, rather than the differences, reveal themselves. True on so many levels. Philosophical even. | ||
| Tramp |
Whoaaaa! WELL said.... Dang! | ||
| Steveford |
For what it's worth, Erik Buell always struck me as having more in common with Peter Williams than John Britten. My first ride on an X1W had me thinking that I could live with this, it's like a giant, modernized Norton Commando. Both men (Buell and Williams) are brilliant designers who worked with outdated engines on a limited budget and achieved what I consider to be tremendous results because they're ideas were so clever. I gave up on Nortons after an Atlas tried to blow my foot off, I bought the X1W shortly thereafter and haven't looked back. | ||
| Court |
>>> Erik Buell always struck me as having more in common with Peter Williams than John Britten. That's an accurate statement. Erik Buell and John Britten . . . both visionaries in their own way . . . are polar opposites as people. | ||
| Tramp |
Buell & Britten. GREAT analogy. | ||
| Steve_a |
Peter Williams was brilliant as both the rider and designer of the 1973 Norton. It was a seminal road-race bike design that Norton threw away the next year largely because of team politics. |
