| Author | Message | ||
     Johnnylunchbox |
All Buells from the point of HDs involvement were tagged with the HD name? Were marketed as HDs, and badged as such, but under the sole development of Mr. Buell. This is an academic question posed to generate intelligent civilized debate. I do not mean to slight Mr. Buell's accomplishments in any way and no insult is intended. Think of it as an alternate history exercise. Ignore it if you want. I am into my second beer after a really long day, and the warm fuzzies have gotten me thinking. One facet of my thoughts is if a lifestyle type campaign could have been successful (edit: not challenging the success. I am asking if Buell numbers could have been brought up to HD numbers), or is there more than campaigns at issue here? (Message edited by johnnylunchbox on June 02, 2010) | ||
| Nillaice |
the name represents the image, but not vice-versa. | ||
| Ulynut |
posed to generate intelligent civilized debate. That leaves me out. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Market research shows that the HD name attached to a sport bike model isn't viewed as a positive. I suspect that "lineage thinking" design folks would have prevented the development beyond the tuber phase. | ||
| New12r |
I dont think it would have made it two years, let alone all the way through the tuber phase. | ||
| Guell |
I suspect that "lineage thinking" design folks would have prevented the development beyond the tuber phase. is it wrong if im cool with that? lol | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Nope. Unfortunately, tuber only equals fail as mainstream sport bike. The tubers were good handling, high performance Sportsters. | ||
| F_skinner |
Fail | ||
| Spiderman |
Fail times 2 But then again Fatty came into the fold late and has only been around for a few years... Quite sad that a dealer employee that prides himself as a Buell salesman has no knowledge of Buellistory... | ||
| Oldog |
The tubers were good handling, high performance Sportsters. Now why o why did you have to say some thing insulting like that?  Think of the tuber as an alternative standard, that just happens to be hd (under) powered. Further proof that Erik and the Elves were fricking brilliant. | ||
| Johnnylunchbox |
Play nice, kids. I'm looking to learn something from this.  | ||
| Brumbear |
I have had the hd power plant xb great bike fun bike and I have a CR rotax now this is what buell's platform needs to be even if you upped the cc and tuned the motor down a little lower to say 120 hp the water cooled power plant is the platform the bike needs. It is far superior to the sportster motor and you can either tune it up or tune it down for sport bikes and or tourers and street fighters. Unless Harley is willing to do that I would have a hard time going there. I think Erik Buell needs to stand alone or in another mfg. gendre where he can devolop the bikes he is capable of. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
My statement was made from a "lineage" HD person not from my personal beliefs. I am enjoying riding the M2. I haven't enjoyed the personal money I have had to spend to keep Bumpus' M2 road worthy.  | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
Johnny - I feel that it would be at the same place it was, a small market bike with just a different logo on the tank. I think you'd see a handful of people more 'willing' to swap some parts here and there and hop up the traditional HD. But honestly, this makes me think of what some people are saying in another thread I just read - that they hope Victory hire Erik to make a sportbike for them etc I mean, would it still be a buell if it had a different badge? Would it sell as well with a Victory badge? I think (just my opinions) having a HD logo on it would help more than any other logo outside of 'buell' I dont know. Im tired, Im going to bed soon. But I do think this is a good thread idea | ||
| 2008xb12scg |
I think one of the problems was trying to get sport bike guys to buy a "harley powered" sport bike. Calling it a harley would make those like it even less.. | ||
| Attweco |
I also own a Harley. After I got my 1125R, I was excited to take it over to my local Harley(not Buell) dealership, to show it off. The fact that one of their Harley customers bought a Buell was of considerable interest to them. Everyone from the dealership came out to see my bike. Only one of them had ever even seen a Buell, before. The owner of the dealership, who is a friend of mine, looked at the bike. These were his words: Do you like the bike? Good. Enjoy it. But also understand this: Buell never made a penny's profit for Harley-Davidson. They never even broke even, once. If Erik Buell was so damn good, why did he never make money for his company? The dealership owners all knew it, and they resented this product being produced and subsidized all these years. This is a business. I have no regrets that I never would have anything to do with Buell, and I shed no tears that they are gone. Let Erik Buell go and empty out someone else's pockets, now. Good luck to them. Then he walked away. | ||
| Tiltcylinder |
I used to lust after and buy foreign makes. many years ago I decided I want to keep some of the money I earn... here. Rode quite a few tubers back when, the riding position was great for an hour or so. I kept on riding sportsters. The X (just a tad too tall) was the first Buell other than the ST's (had no money then) that really drew me back again and again. Then the XT sold me and I had to have one. The horsepower is great but I'd probably be just as happy with a (don't kill me for saying it) stock 883 motor at half the horses and half the vibes. If Erik can make a Helicon powered XT-like bike with Victory or even Bombadier, it'll be my next ride. I'm just too old and damaged to spend hours with my wrists at the same level as my ankles. Harley simply failed to market these bikes at the dealer level. I knew more about the XT than the 'Buell specialist' when I bought mine. Dealerships seemed to feel 'saddled' with a line that didn't interlock with the chrome n pirate wear the brand sells in abundance. Chrome PM wheels were about as flashy as a Buell could get... remember? Could you imagine the walls of the dealerships lined with dozens of different styles of Buell footpegs? Would Buell owners purchase them? | ||
| Johnnylunchbox |
2008xb12scg said -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ I think one of the problems was trying to get sport bike guys to buy a "harley powered" sport bike. Calling it a harley would make those like it even less.. What if you look at it from a different angle. What if they should have been trying to get the Harley/Cruiser guys more into sport/standard bikes? | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
What if you look at it from a different angle. What if they should have been trying to get the Harley/Cruiser guys more into sport/standard bikes? That's the problem. HD didn't want their core buyer into sport bikes. The only win for HD was to bring young buyers into the store who wouldn't buy an HD product. Had there been an HD badged tuber along side of an HD badged Sportster both with similar looking engines, it would have been difficult not to market it as a "Sportster". Besides the engine, there is very little of the XR1200 that resembles a Sportster. How is it marketed? | ||
| Xl1200r |
Besides the engine, there is very little of the XR1200 that resembles a Sportster. How is it marketed? And how is it selling? I think there's the answer to the original question. But also understand this: Buell never made a penny's profit for Harley-Davidson. They never even broke even, once. So... supposedly Buell lost money every year they were in business, yet Harley invested in them, and then after a few years invested even MORE in them. Either someone has their own version of history (i.e., Buell DID make a profit, albeit small for HD standards) or they are unwilling to place the blame on the mothership that took Buell on as wholly as they did (finacially only). This guy needs to get real. | ||
| 86129squids |
+1 Fats- yeppers, this is a marketing quextion. When we were at MBV with Flickinger and the HD marketing head cheese, dodgin the rain in TWO's main hall and doing the Q&A session with them, I asked Flick why there was no effort to "cross-pollinate" HD and Buell in the marketing efforts. I stated that my favorite customer was someone who owned BOTH a Buell and a Hog- he quickly shut me down, saying it would never happen. I still want to go find my old marketing professor at UT and take him to lunch, a LONG lunch, to discuss HD, Buell, and what in the world HD's marketing department is smoking. The whole thing fascinates me... Jeremy, my heart goes out to you and the rest of the peeps still working in sales for HD. Bless you, you've got Tom on your side, but I know it aint easy. I feel fortunate to have left the biz before they killed Buell. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I enjoy what I do and like every person I get to work with at Bumpus. That said, much of the magic that happens is in spite of the marketing department not because of it. Interestingly, I don't think I've seen a single sales person walk away from a person interested in a bike that the person didn't appreciate or like. We currently have a 2008 Hypermotard sitting on the sales floor. I've personally seen EVERY sales guy at the shop try to sell that to an interested customer. No takers yet, but I suspect that it wouldn't be the bike of choice for most of them. | ||
| Froggy |
Yay! I am not the only moderator being flamed for Tuber comments!  | ||
| Tiltcylinder |
The XR is now where a base sportster should have been over a decade ago. If the motor company put half the effort, into making a better bike, that it puts into making the black blacker or shiny shinier... Buell might have had some competition right on the showroom floor. The rubber mounting and fuel injection were great additions, but how about a hundred pound diet program and a suspension that really works. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
See how the XR1200X is being marketed. It's not a "Sportster" but it is being marketed as one. http://www.harley-davidson.com/wcm/Content/Pages/H D_News/Company/newsarticle.jsp?locale=en_US&articl eLink=News/0735_press_release.hdnews&newsYear=2010 &history=news | ||
| Greg_e |
IF hardley had done this, and IF they marketed it properly, they may have been able to pull it off. But you can not market something like these Buells to the HD lifestyle idiots as they want no part in it. If they had put in a decen water cooled power plant back in the XB days, and marketed to joe racer on the street just like Honda, Suzuki, Yamaha, Kawaski do, then they might have grabbed a few of the incoming want something that will go 175mph even though there is no where to ride that fast, wife beater and sandals wearing squids. After those guys lose their license for the second time some might have moved over to something more sedate in the HD line. The big problem would have been that the dealers would have had to stock real gear to go with these bikes, for some it would have been welcome, but others would have fought it tooth and nail. A water cooled reliable sport touring machine like a Rotax powered Uly could have captured a lot of police business. CHP sells their BMW's at 100,000, need to get the same out of the domestic machines to match them. I still think it comes down to lack of marketing, and a large portion of that marketing would have been factory sponsored racing, especially if they could have started knocking down the "overclassed" competition by beater the liter bikes in "fair" racing. SInce we are seeing what can be done with that Rotax engine, we can see that Hardley got out of things a little too soon to grab these sport bike guys, should have offered the CEO a couple million less and put that money towards the marketing effort and let demand push the manufacturing increases that could have come from it. Might have been able to laugh all the way to the bank just like BMW with their new racer class machine. | ||
| F_skinner |
IN MY OPINION, the fact that you and others do not like tubers, S2s or whatever and actively voices that on this site does not sit well with being a Custodian. Johnnylunchbox, I am sorry I hijacked your thread again. It will not happen anymore. Later | ||
| Froggy |
Please state where I or any other custodian stated that we do not like tubers. I have said in the past that I like my 1125's better as they are superior in every way, and Ft_bstrd was was pointing out the similarities between the tubers and the Sportster. In another thread someone compared the specs on the XR1200X to a tuber. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
IN MY OPINION, the fact that you and others do not like tubers, S2s or whatever and actively voices that on this site does not sit well with being a Custodian. Who said anything about "not liking tubers"? I've said that I didn't care for the looks of particular models. Am I not permitted to have an opinion? | ||
| Guell |
hypermotard *drools* how much for it? |
