| Author | Message | ||
     86129squids |
Ummm, hey, I just ate a homemade sammich and some homemade tater salad, had my hands busy. Fascism in the era of Hitler and Mussolini is different than what we call it nowadays. Political language is fluid. YMMV. The 3rd reich in Germany and the similar BS in Italy are recorded. Once upon a time the Swastika was a well revered early Christian symbol, until the nazi's co-opted it. Fun thread! "If you don't see God in the next person you meet, there's no use in looking for him further." Gandhi | ||
| Hex |
Anyway it wasn't just Hitler's war, the entire Christian nation of Germany was involved in it's "purification" pursuit. WW2 was a Religious war. | ||
| Hex |
Myth 1: Hitler was not a Christian The entire section on Hitler's Christianity provides ample evidence for his brand of Christianity. The evidence itself destroys any opinions or beliefs about Hitler's alleged apostasy. The evidence shows that: Hitler was born and baptized into Catholicism His Jewish antisemitism came from his Christian background. His early personal notes shows his interest in religion and Biblical views. He believed that the Bible represented the history of mankind. His Nazi party platform (their version of a constitution) included a section on Positive Christianity, and he never removed it. He confessed his Christianity. He tried to establish a united Reich German Church. Hitler allowed the destruction of Jewish synagogues and temples, but not Christian churches. He encouraged Nazis to worship in Christian churches. He spoke of his Christian beliefs in his speeches and proclamations. His contemporaries, friends, Protestant ministers and Catholics priests, including the Vatican, thought of Hitler as a Christian. The Catholic Church never excommunicated Hitler. He died a Catholic. To ignore the evidence of Hitler's Christianity demonstrates how power of belief can obscure the facts. | ||
| 86129squids |
Actually, I doubt I'd find God in a jihaddist- I would look further. "By one's actions does one define onesself." Gotta go work the garden. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Myth 1: Hitler was not a Christian The entire section on Hitler's Christianity provides ample evidence for his brand of Christianity. The evidence itself destroys any opinions or beliefs about Hitler's alleged apostasy. The evidence shows that: Hitler was born and baptized into Catholicism So are many atheists. His Jewish antisemitism came from his Christian background. Many atheists are anti-semitic as well. From where do THEIR beliefs spring. His early personal notes shows his interest in religion and Biblical views. Many people have an "interest in religion and Biblical views". Some even take classes about and read books about religion in their free time. Does this make them "Christian" also? He believed that the Bible represented the history of mankind. Hitler also believed that Germains represented the "master race". His Nazi party platform (their version of a constitution) included a section on Positive Christianity, and he never removed it. Made it easier for Christians to feel comfortable within the Nazi Party. Hitler wasn't the only one who believed in "big tent" politics. He confessed his Christianity. So have many political leaders in order to gain advantage with voters. It doesn't mean they ARE. Do Hitler's actions support his claim of Christianity? He tried to establish a united Reich German Church. And this would jive with Catholicism how? Hitler allowed the destruction of Jewish synagogues and temples, but not Christian churches. Jews were the enemy not the church. He encouraged Nazis to worship in Christian churches. As an aid to propaganda for the NAZI Party. He spoke of his Christian beliefs in his speeches and proclamations. For the purposes of propaganda and inclusion. His contemporaries, friends, Protestant ministers and Catholics priests, including the Vatican, thought of Hitler as a Christian. I doubt they did once they discovered the Holocaust. The Catholic Church never excommunicated Hitler. He died a Catholic. Neither Was Mussolini. To ignore the evidence of Hitler's Christianity demonstrates how power of belief can obscure the facts. The same can be said for atheists. | ||
| Hex |
You have stated many times in the past that Atheism IS a religion. | ||
| Hex |
Atheism is a religion of no god. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Yep. A religion that claims to serve no god but logic. | ||
| Slaughter |
OK (and Blake knows this) - I AM an atheist. I reserve my wrath for the people who call themselves agnostics. Careful about making broad-brush generalizations. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Like Christianity is the root of all the ills in the world? | ||
| Aesquire |
IMO atheism is as varied as Christianity, more varied than many other religions. Some believe this, others that. Atheists can be very moral people, or monsters. same with Christians, Islamics, etc. The atheists I have issues with are (A) the ones that want to keep others from worshiping as they see fit.....(B)and the ones that stopped spiritual discovery with the adolescent rejection of authority's teachings. B's I find a bit childish, their emotional maturity seems frozen at the same 11-14 year old stage as their religious growth. I don't really mind them, except when they threaten to hold their breath or cry a lot. A's ( who sometimes are a nasty subset of B's, but not always ) are really a pain. They seem the most evil of the busy body jerks that ruin life for everyone else.....and claim it's "for your own good". Bite me. If someone wants to worship God, or Popcorn, or whatever, as an American, I have no problems. It's his Popcorn given right. I know a bunch of people who have fringe religious beliefs, and while some are funny or weird to me, I would never try and stop them. Unless they were having a religious war over butter. ( I'm pro butter on Popcorn, if you care ) I can also give you many reasons why a giant invisible being in space that can read your mind, has superpowers, and gives a hoot about ant like creatures bowing down before it, is silly. But I won't. I save them for "devil's advocate" discussions where good will is assumed, and face to face, where the giggles are evident. It's a little rude to use them on others in other contexts, though the first few minutes of "Dogma" make me laugh real hard. The rest of the film is funny too. Religion in public schools should be limited to voluntary classes. Prayer should be allowed, but not mandatory. A moment of silence is fine, but really, hard to get with 3rd graders. (Message edited by aesquire on May 12, 2010) | ||
| Johnnymceldoo |
Iam against catering to any religion in public school. Kids get recess or study hall where they can pray if they want to. Teachers should be non biased with regard to religion. | ||
| Aesquire |
I't asking too much to expect teachers to be non-biased. It's not asking too much to demand they not impose those biases on your kids. Ok, maybe that is asking a little much.  | ||
| Hex |
I agree that you cannot and should not separate religion from some, if not all people, including teachers and students. I support religious studies in public school and believe it should be mandatory like sex ed. As long as it is taught to youngins like Huston Smith taught it to me. I believe more religious tolerance and freedom of choice would be the result. But you've got to be smart to do it right. Just follow Dr. Smith and add Atheism, mysticism, magic, voodoo, Jehovah Witness, Scientology, Witchcraft, and every other Human attempt to understand the one, the more and the mystery of existence. You could even put a lot of the Sciences in this perspective. (Message edited by hex on May 12, 2010) | ||
| Blake |
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| Blake |
The anti-Christian bigots like to pretend that Hitler was Christian. It is supremely dishonest. The site that Eric (Hex) pulls his "Hitler was a Christian" "information" from is clearly the work of anti-Christian bigots and Christian haters. It is nothing but really miserable, dishonest, misleading stuff. They even go so far as to claim the following:
Really ignorant malicious vile stuff. Evil in my view. But of course what would you expect to oppose the teachings of Jesus Christ? | ||
| Blake |
From: <redacted> | ||
| Blake |
Yet here you are dishonestly maligning the Christian faith and crusading against the petroleum industry. | ||
| Hex |
And what to you believe about Religion in Public Schools, Blake? | ||
| Pwnzor |
I can also give you many reasons why a giant invisible being in space that can read your mind, has superpowers, and gives a hoot about ant like creatures bowing down before it, is silly. Your assertion that God is an invisible being is silly. First, He (not actually a He or She) is not invisible. Second, He is not a being. Third, what God is can be explained very easily. I'll explain it for you. God is love. Love lives in all of us. If we do not love each other, we will not be One with the Father. As Christians, it is our job to accept Christ, the only Son of God, into our hearts. With this comes the love that God is. Gentiles must accept Christ, who was and is God's manifestation among the living. Non-Gentiles must accept God, whatever form they assign to Him. Are you getting this? Only Christians must accept Christ. The point of telling the story of Jesus to a non-Gentile is merely to portray to others our faith in the existence of God. A good Christian will always try to "convert" the faithless. Some Christians' approach to this can be quite confusing to those who are seeking the Light. I believe that we are all God's children and we all reach the realization of this at different times in our lives. Many, on their death beds. It is never too late. Anybody perpetrating a war in the name of religion is evil. However, those who wage war in defense of themselves against such a person are righteous in doing so. Bring out the Holy Hand Grenade! edited for a misspelling. (Message edited by pwnzor on May 12, 2010) | ||
| Gregtonn |
"I reserve my wrath for the people who call themselves agnostics." Why would have wrath toward people who have listened to what non-belivers and believers "believe" (pun intended) and say, "Hmmm...I'm not sure if a higher being does or does not exist."? It seems many of them could be the most honest of the three groups. FYI; I'm not an agnostic. G | ||
| Aesquire |
Pwnzor, please excuse me. The above quoted statement is followed by But I won't. And I did not. ( give ANY reasons ) I meant to show the standard argument of the "jerk atheist" who delights in arguing religion.... for the purpose of putting down another's beliefs. Actually the only people I will "argue" religion with. I have no need or inclination to dispute the nature or existence of Jesus, the Holy Spirit, ( ghost in some translations ) or Jehovah. ( by any name you please ) Please excuse my lack of clarity as to the purpose of that statement. No intent to put down was meant. You don't like Popcorn with butter, I'm cool with that. Now a discussion of evil using religion to excuse mass murder, that's a legit topic for me. Other than some fringe loons, put down by almost all churches, Christianity has mellowed considerably since the days when disbelief in the Trinity got you tortured & executed. When that was taking place, it had as it's true motivation the power gained from the approval of the pope in Rome, and the persecutions were a tool for the Emperor of Rome ( east ) to conquer western Rome. Which he did accomplish, but the war torn land was then ravaged by Plague, that killed more than the war of conquest. But that was like, 1500 years ago. I'm not really worried about the Pope sending hit squads out to get me today. ( he might have them, but I'm pretty small fry ) Doing a comic about tolerance however, can/has/will get you killed, if you annoy once of the current whack job religions. Mostly radical Islam, though the Progressive faith comes in a close second in the murder count if you include all the branches. I'm thinking the Comedy Central guys aren't worried so much about another bomb out front inspired by their new show about J.C. But I bet Geert Wilders doesn't get a show. | ||
| Aesquire |
Love the Holy Hand Grenade! I liked the creed of "reform agnostics" as a stopper for religious arguments. "I don't understand the true nature of God, and I don't think you do either" Actually I think that "faith" was made up for that purpose.  So, what about agnostics trips your trigger? The lack of commitment? ( That really gets my ex going....oops, different subject ) (Message edited by aesquire on May 12, 2010) | ||
| Hex |
Blake, I am going to present you the opportunity to be the honest man and post here the permissions that you granted me in your e-mail reply to my reinstatement request e-mail. | ||
| Moxnix |
I NEVER agree with Hex on anything political. We have our differences. However, if there is room for a 180-degree opinion, his comments are often amusing and entertaining. Of course I sometimes like hogging him out for being a socialist toadie, too. | ||
| Hex |
Namaste. The divine in me recognizes the divine in you and acknowledges we are the same. I'm liking Hinduism more and more. For one it is the oldest living major tradition. It also contains the Yogic traditions. And guess what, you can be an atheist and a Hindu at the same time. There is no formal 'creator', no deity to worship, just a divine duty to to fulfill. The becoming of god if you will. Hinduism cannot be defined, but is only to be experienced. In panentheism, God is not necessarily viewed as the creator, but the eternal animating force behind the universe, with the universe as nothing more than the manifest part of God. The cosmos exists within God, who in turn "pervades" or is "in" the cosmos. While pantheism asserts that God and the universe are coextensive, panentheism claims that God is greater than the universe and that the universe is contained within God. Hinduism is highly characterized by Panentheism and Pantheism. Works for me. | ||
| Pwnzor |
Aesquire, no offense was taken. You are right, I do not understand the true nature of God, as nobody really does. What I present here are my ideas, perceptions, and beliefs which are based on my own comparison of the relatively similar texts found in the Torah, Qu'ran and the Old Testament, intermingled with the fruits of several dozen intense discussions with a Hindu Brahmin. I do not look for the differences in the religions, rather I seek the similarities. It is my firm belief that all people of faith are worshiping the same God. To some, they may seem different but it is the culture you're raised in that determines your perception of a divine influence or supreme being. God, to me, is love. Love is that eternal animating force Hex mentioned in the last post. It binds us, flows through us, and creates all life. We are mired in semantics, bickering about who is right, when in fact only very few of us are actually wrong. Which few those are remains to be seen. If I'm wrong, put me in the ground and let the worms eat me. If "they" are wrong then they rot in hell. Hell? What is hell? To me, hell is a separation from God, the empty void of created by a soul separated from it's point of origin. Not really a single point per se, but a unified presence within the greater whole that is our universe. I do not believe in "infinity". My universe is definitely finite. Infinity is not just an endless number that keeps growing in quantity. To me it is the casting off of one's faith in creation. While God, which is love, continues to create much wonderous variety, many things are in turn destroyed. This is the natural order of things. God, which is love, created evolution. Evolution is the manifestation of God's wisdom. God = Love. Love is achieved through faith. That's what it all boils down to for me. Let's touch on the subject of faith for a moment. We humans are very caught up in the "now", what is happening to us here, on this planet at this moment. We worry about our mortgages. We fret over our investments. We buy insurance in case a flood might destroy our home and belongings. These are all faithless acts. We seek too often an immediate result from our actions, gratification if you will. Try sometime, (I know most of you probably already do) letting go of your need for this instant gratification. Commit yourself to an act of charity, however small, but really commit to it. Find out where you can volunteer to serve up some soup or distribute relief packages to persons in need, or whatever.... then get up early on a Saturday and go DO it. Do NOT send money. Donate yourSELF, nothing more. Take some of your time, and give it away to anyone who shows up or expresses a need. You WILL see some people take advantage of you. You WILL see some who seek to disrupt someone else's ability to receive the assistance you provide. You WILL see people who truly appreciate what you are doing, even if they don't say it or just can't articulate it, or are ashamed of their position in life. All these people are born of God's love, no matter what they look like or what religion they claim to practice. The grateful ones will generally share with others what they get from you, while others may hoard it. Here's where the faith comes into play: Your actions are an example of what Christ taught. Others learn from it regardless of how you may see them act. Showing it may be another thing entirely. You must believe that your actions are for the good of others, and if you have that faith you can go on about your life with the knowledge that you have made a difference... It could be 15 years from now when that guy you gave an extra PB&J sandwich to has gotten his life together and now he's in a position to help others... and he does. Thing is, you never know it happens. You have faith that it will happen. You don't need the reward of gratification... This is the age here & now, no longer is ours an era of quiet reflection, charity and faith. It's really a shame on us as humans, but none of us are perfect. Faith determines that God loves his imperfect creations. edited for mispelling and I missed a conjunction.  (Message edited by pwnzor on May 13, 2010) | ||
| Cochise |
An agnostic is an atheist who is too weak to stand up and make a commitment | ||
| Hootowl |
Pwnzor, I think that was the most lucid and thoughtful post I have ever seen. | ||
| Gregtonn |
"An agnostic is an atheist who is too weak to stand up and make a commitment" or "An agnostic is an atheist willing to admit he doesn't know everything."_Greg |
