| Author | Message | ||
     Wolfridgerider |
The guy riding the test bike is MSF coach that I have taught with... cool guy with a cool job. He gets to test a bunch of the fun stuff and some not so fun stuff... http://www.iihs.org/video.aspx/info/motorcycle_ant ilocks Just think... ABS was just around the corner for us... | ||
| Gunut75 |
Maybe it's STILL around the corner for us..............  | ||
| Wolfridgerider |
I hope you're right. | ||
| Iamike |
I've passed on ABS on 2 bike purchases so far. The expense is pretty high. Of course there have been a couple of times since that I was wondering if it was a wise move not to have it. | ||
| Mikef5000 |
We talked about this study in my MSF course of Sunday. Our conclusion was that the study is flawed, because other study's show that more experienced riders are more likely to buy bikes with ABS. So saying "Bikes with ABS have had less crashes" is the same as saying "More experienced riders had less crashes". I'm not for or against ABS on bikes. But I don't like the idea of it being government mandated, simply for the idea that every bike is going to go up in price, and we will most likely see the demise of all the little dual sports and supermotos. | ||
| Lemonchili_x1 |
Do you think ABS would have saved that crash at around 35 seconds? | ||
| Gunut75 |
Lemonchili, NO. Probably not...... | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I'd like ABS if it were more affordable. ABS on more bikes will make it more affordable. Catch 22. | ||
| B00stzx3 |
My ZTL works fine. No thanks. | ||
| Wolfridgerider |
Do you think ABS would have saved that crash at around 35 seconds? That would depend on if he was braking in the corner.... if he was then I say ABS may have saved his bacon. BUT, if no brakes were used and he exceeded the traction of the tire he would still be toast. If it was cost effective, I would want it and the only way I see that happening is if more bikes come with it.... just like FB said..... catch 22 | ||
| Froggy |
ABS sure as hell could of stopped my last wreck from happening. | ||
| Greg_e |
I'm against mandatory ABS, if the purchaser wants it, then more power to them. | ||
| Jaimec |
Here's my theory on that study: Up until last year when Honda introduced ABS on the CBR1000RR, the only bikes that had ABS were touring and sport-touring bikes. Both of those niches have lower accident statistics than the other market segments which is why most insurance companies discount rates for touring and sport-touring bikes. As someone else pointed out, that segment also attracts the more experienced, mature rider as well (and by mature, I'm referring to emotional maturity; we ALL grow old, but not all of us grow UP). What will be more interesting to note will be if the same study is conducted a few years down the road now that ABS is available on both the CBR1000RR and the BMW S1000RR. I'm sure other sport bike manufacturers are looking at it too. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
The came pro/con discussions were had when ABS came out for cars as well. Most of the time you won't even notice the system is there. It's just when you apply them to the extent that your bike would break traction that the ABS would kick in. My only beef is weight, price, and complexity. If they've managed to put in on the Honda and BMW, the weight and complexity issues have been addressed. The next issue is price. That comes with quantity. | ||
| Jaimec |
The price is often offset over the long run by insurance discounts. I know it has for me. By the way, ABS has one drawback that you never hear mentioned... it can significantly increase your stopping distance on dry, washboard surfaces (we have a LOT of those here in metro New York, I'm afraid). The reason being that your tire will momentarily leave the road surface. The brake on that wheel will, of course, lock the wheel since there is nothing turning it any more. The ABS sensor detects that the OTHER wheel (still on the ground) is still rotating and so interprets this as a "locked wheel" condition and releases the brake on the wheel currently on the bumpy surface. Once the wheel reestablishes contact, and rolls again, the brake will reapply, but this will continue until the bike comes to a complete stop, or you roll completely off the washboard surface. This is quite disconcerting because it makes the bike feel as though it is lurching forward when it should be stopping. It is something you should be aware of, and should plan accordingly when out riding (scan the road surface, evaluate the condition, execute braking accordingly). SEE? (Message edited by jaimec on May 11, 2010) | ||
| Etennuly |
Yeah well I don't want ABS. I don't want it on a car either. If you are going to go that hot into a corner and brake mid apex, ABS isn't going to save your squid ass. It will start doing it's grab release pulsing and put you down anyway. I feel that if you need ABS you need to slow down a bit. If you want ABS because you tend to panic when things get busy it might suit you. If I wasn't able to lock the brakes in order to put the bike down when I wanted to in that little triple get off at '07 Homecoming, someone in front of me would have likely been run over. I used the brakes ability to lock up as needed to control and intentionally dump the bike. You cannot use your brakes to control an intended slide with ABS. It will straighten you out, making you run long, and put you other than where you intended to be. They are not of any value on dirt that I have seen. I want to be able to control my situation the way physics will allow it to happen, and not have to think about what the bike will allow me to do. So if your situation gets you off the edge of the pavement on to wet grass or mud, you will effectively have no brakes to work with to induce a potentially needed slide to say hit a fence or a tree at a more welcome angle. I think ABS on a bike should come with a full roll-cage and a five point harness, as long as it will have you straight up running into stuff. Or perhaps and ejector seat. | ||
| Pwnzor |
ABS sucks. My opinion. | ||
| Jaimec |
Those of us who ride in all weather and at night appreciate ABS. Those of you who ride on perfect roads where there are never any animals or children waiting to leap out in front of you probably don't need it. | ||
| Jaimec |
There are so many things wrong with that kind of thinking I don't even know where to start. Can there still possibly be, in 2010, someone who thinks they "need to lay the bike down to avoid an accident??" When did metal sliding on asphalt stop quicker than rubber on asphalt??? When you lay the bike down, you haven't avoided an accident... YOU JUST HAD ONE!! | ||
| Mikef5000 |
I ride in all weather and at night and have not needed ABS yet. ABS is simply a mechanical replacement for proper brake modulation by the rider/driver. | ||
| Fast1075 |
I LOVE okra  ABS on cars sucks...at least on the ones I have driven...there is a definate delay in the braking action....Automotive ABS is in my opinion a crutch for the masses that don't know HOW to brake or squid out in a tight situation. I haven't ridden a bike with ABS....so I have no opinion...but my gut feeling is I would rather be in control myself. | ||
| Etennuly |
I ride in some fairly bad weather. Again, ABS on things like mud, wet grass, snow, and ice will not allow me to control my bike the way I need to. When I need to pump my brakes a little or get on the berm and jab-pump them to push into the dirt under the snow to stop, I don't want a computer changing my inputs.  And yes I was crashing intentionally. I was not avoiding the wreck, I was already in it, others were wrecking in my path. Not crashing would have had me running over a human being, that would have been much worse than a little metal grinding and snapping. I needed to slide it in. ABS could not see that I was doing it intentionally or why. It is becoming obvious to me that you have never competitively raced any vehicles. When you race fast enough and long enough you know, or can find, where the 'edge' of traction and control are, or your personal limitations. If you race, you will wreck and you will learn. You might even learn that it is best to slow down a bit to keep your ass at a safer speed because you know what can happen. Wrecking can be a controlled event that one can use to lessen damage and injury. Being able to modulate the brakes yourself can save your bacon if stopping straight up and going too long is not an option. Thinking ABS will save you from having a wreck is ABSURD! It will help you stop if you tend to panic when an unexpected event or condition crosses your path. IMHO it is about riders wanting to give control(responsibility for how they react) to the manufacturers. This is why I am so adamant about people learning to ride on dirt bikes. I really feel that if you cannot ride sideways, control a slide, and drop a bike properly you are not ready for what the environment can throw at you. Can I, or others like me still wreck?.....you bet we can, we know we can. A lot of people with ABS think it cannot happen to them because of their manufacturers safety net. Is my opinion right for you? Don't look like it. Is your opinion right for me, I don't think so. If you don't think controlling a crash makes sense, think about the airplane that went down in the Husdon river in New York in the past year. What happens when your ABS doesn't stop you and you wreck anyway? Do you yell "do over" as you go over the bars into the side of a truck? | ||
| Strokizator |
Maybe if those opposed to ABS would think of it as a steering aid instead of a braking aid they'd change their minds. What ABS does is allow you to have total steering control of the bike under less than ideal conditions. I have an '08 Road Glide with ABS. I was charging up an freeway on-ramp trying to reach cruising speed only to find out that traffic was at a dead stop just 100ft later. Clamped on the brakes with maximum effort and the bike tracked true without any fishtailing or drama at all. I still ran out of space but instead of piling into the back of the car ahead of me I just easily split lanes and rolled to a stop a few feet further on. Now some of you guys can correctly modulate the brakes and avoid such situations or tell me I didn't expect the unexpected so it was all my fault and if it makes you feel better to say "We don't need no stinking ABS" that's fine with me. I don't think I'd buy another road bike without it - got a KTM 990 Adv with it now; switchable for off road. | ||
| Ratbuell |
I, for one, can see ALL of the value of an intentional slide. I'm rolling down the street and a van pulls in front of me. I know for a fact I'm going too fast to stop, or the van is too close for me to stop or avoid. You bet your ASS I'll throw that bike down and send it into the van first. Does metal slide on pavement faster than rubber tires? Yep. The important part is, now *I* only weigh my body and gear weight, not as much as that PLUS the bike (lower inertia on *me*)...and *I* will slide slower on pavement than a rolling bike (with all that weight) will. I don't have to outrun the bear, just the guy next to me. I don't have to keep the bike from hitting the van, just minimize the impact on myself. Drop it on purpose? You bet I would. I've got enough titanium in my personal structure already, definitely don't want any more. | ||
| Wolfridgerider |
Did I mention I know the guy riding the bike and I would like to have his job..... | ||
| Etennuly |
What?  I 'spose you think this is your thread.....or something.  | ||
| Rainman |
I like ABS on street bikes. I've seen fairly inexperienced riders in the MSF experienced course (the street skills practice course) break their BMWs and Wings in much shorter distances than their skills would otherwise allow. I would get it on my bike, if it was available. However, I practice locking the brakes down hard almost every time I ride, the same as swerving. I've had to use those skills often as a commuter and I don't feel as though I'm losing much not having ABS. It'd probably keep newbies from screwing up. I'm sure there must be a way for a maker to provide and off/on switch on dual purpose and other bikes. | ||
| Etennuly |
ABS has the potential to kill also. Like any computer program sometimes they can screw up putting you at serious risk. Look at the crap Toyota is dealing with, GM went through it more silently. I had a new '03 GMC pickup that did just that. Cruising at 55 mph on the Interstate, misting with rain, I had just passed two semis and moved back into the right lane. No brake inputs at all. The left rear wheel locked up for about three seconds, putting the truck nearly sideways. It released and the truck straightened up. A few seconds later the right rear wheel locked up, putting it nearly sideways the other way. I coasted for a distance and used the parking brake to a stop, the brake warning lights were on and the pedal was to the floor. No brakes at all. Then the ABS motor ran the pedals came back and I slowly drove another couple of miles to the dealership where they locked it down, would not even let me into the drivers seat to get my stuff. They pulled out and replaced everything that had anything to do with the ABS system. Wheel sensors to the ECM. There was no recall, but it was like they were watching for this problem. They flew in GM reps to look at it the next day. I had a new '97 Suburban that did very similar things. The brake pedal would randomly drop to the floor for about fifteen seconds, the warning lights would come on, then the ABS brake motor would run, pedal would come back up and all was fine until it would do it again. GM bought that one back after six months of arguing that it could not do that. The look on their reps face when it did it while he was driving was priceless, the man totally freeked out. ABS has not always been my friend. But then I have experienced brake failure on pre-ABS vehicles also, but those were older used vehicles. Good thing I knew how to "slid it in" to avoid a wreck. | ||
| Satori |
Ratbuell- Sounds like the van scenario hapened to you, funny thing is it did to me when I was a teenager, had I not laid down the bike, I'm sure I wouldnt be here. I ended up putting a nice dent in the diferencial with the skid plate. but walked away with nothing but a bit of road rash on the gear and bike. Rainman your point is perfect, a newbie with no skills it will help o a point. So rather than mandating a technology that on a bike can kill, why not instead mandate skills training? that would likely save more lives. Etennuly, I completly agree with you on starting on dirt bikes. Being a former motocrosser, and trials rider, I personally dont want it on a bike. I'm not against it but it should be optional, or at least be able to be turned off. Just my .02 | ||
| Fast1075 |
I drove a company pick-up for two years that had anti-lock brakes....the scariest times I had in that truck where when I needed brake RIGHT NOW!!! the brake pedal would not even move for at least a full second....no matter how hard I pushed...after that time delay the pedal would go down a little and the braking action begin....horrible waste of time... The front brakes if used on unclean pavement (a little sandy)the front braking action would alternate lockup then roll (alternating from side to side too)...it was scary and incredibly dangerous... None of my current vehicles are of the same manufacture as that truck...and none of them have active anti-lock. |
