| Author | Message | ||
     Road_thing |
I'm still skeptical about the nuclear thing. To my knowledge it's never been tried in an underwater situation, and the "unintended consequences" could be huge. On the other hand, I'm all for plugging that well and stopping the flow of oil ASAP. I'm confident that the industry (not just BP--all of the deep-water operators are involved now) is looking hard at all options, including the nuclear one. I'm curious to see what they come up with. It's a damn shame the cofferdam didn't work. They're apparently taking a look at what went wrong there; maybe there's a chance to refine that idea and try it again. rt | ||
| Milt |
Nothing will kill off all life anywhere. Some bacteria or insects will always survive. In the Gulf, people correctly worry about oysters and fish. The oysters will probably survive, but will be inedible for years. Many fishermen will be screwed for years to come. About nuclear energy: The question isn't whether it's good - it's whether it sucks less than the alternatives. | ||
| Hex |
Before this thread descends into the usual Liberal vs. Conservative political posturing and finger-pointing, let's not forget that what we're talking about here is a tragic fatal accident with serious environmental repercussions that was caused by a combination of mechanical and human failures. I don't think we completely understand what happened to the well yet, but I'm pretty sure it had nothing to do with anybody's political beliefs. Nobody anywhere, not on that rig, not in the BP organization, not in the Minerals Management Service, not anywhere, wanted 11 people to die or millions of gallons of oil to be spilled into the ocean. Kathleen here: Thank you, RT. You have written a very eloquent and true statement. I think every single person in this country is responsible for this leak. Liberals, conservatives, black, white, young old. We all drive cars/bikes, all turn on the lights and heat our water. The problem is now, we have a major environmental disaster and how are we going to fix it? More importantly, how are we going to prevent this from happening in the future? Whether it occurs in Uganda, Alaska or Russia...WE all need to start using less oil, develop more public transport and stop manufacturing cars that get 8 miles per gallon... most importantly we all need to get off our fat butts and walk more. Hey we could solve this health care and oil crisis with one simple pair of tennis shoes. | ||
| Whatever |
Here, now educate yourself... http://www.epa.gov/bpspill/ This is not the first oil spill, nor will it be the last. There is a misunderstanding of the Environmental Permitting process here... After working for a Tribe that had Federal permitting authority under the Clean Water Act... this is what I understand... RISK ANALYSIS Is always based on best available data, which means even data from the Exxon Valdez may not be appropriate to model a spill in the Gulf. Different eco-systems and different currents, temperatures, etc. Even if you forced an oil company to spend 3 Million dollars on very mathematically complicated models of possible oil spills for each well they drill and they calculated their likelihood of them actually happening... they would still happen and they would still be a nightmare to clean up... The studies will always be wrong... That is the wonder of natural science... all we have is theories based on observation and there is almost always some exception to the theory... The BIG OIL LOBBYISTS know this and they use it to their advantage when they are seeking a permit... SO, do you really think it is feasible or practical to do an EIS on every single well drilled? Here we get into: COST BENEFIT ANALYSIS If the government wants to employ another 1000 people to review oil or any minerals exporation or development permits, then they can do that. Would you really be happy about that use of our tax dollars? No you all would be griping about it. And to top it off you would blame the cost of every gallon of gas on big government spending regulatory programs. How do the oil companies "get away with it"? Well, like it or not (and I do not like it much but I accept it), this is the way our government is run. I don't think whoever happens to be President at the time is the person to blame... I think it is the way our country and our economy works... unfortunately or fortunately, you decide. Now what exactly are EXEMPTIONS to environmental permitting processes. Well, there are a few different kinds... One might be case specific... such as, oh, now we are going to drill under Antarctica... and there are very little people or wildlife or whatever that will be affected... One other type of exemption is called a CATEGORICAL EXCLUSION. What this means is that a certain type of industry (identified by the SAIC code) falls under a GENERAL PERMIT. So let us say I am running an oil refinery. I will not be excluded from a stormwater permit... but lets say I am running a bakery. I would probably be excluded from the stormwater permit, because, hey eggs, sugar and milk are not really hazardous. I am not as familiar with oil permits as I am with mining issues, but I would guess that the exclusion granted for wells is fairly broad based. And, why, would I guess this? Because let us say that using the BEST AVAILABLE TECHNOLOGY only 1 in 30,000 wells ever has a leak (just a complete wild guess- someone else can look up the statistics). And, mind you, this "Best Available Technology" is included in the Cost Benefit Analysis... The oil company might say, oh, well the 5 Billion Dollar safeguard for each well is not really an option because that would bankrupt us... so we are going to lobby to be able to use the 1 Million Dollar safeguard. It is a very long and complicated process. It isn't like BP just calls up the President and the President says, "ok, drill". Wouldn't that be a little naive? If that were the case, with the last administration being so pro- big oil profit, don't you think there would be oil wells on Lake Superior, the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge and any other place that was a prospective source within the States? Just a few things to think about... | ||
| Glitch |
Hex, just in case you didn't know, here's a list of petroleum products: ammonia anesthetics antifreeze antihistamines antiseptics artificial limbs artificial turf aspirin awnings balloons ballpoint pens bandages basketballs bearing grease bicycle tires boats cameras candles car battery cases car enamel cassettes caulking cd player cd's clothes clothesline cold cream combs cortisone crayons curtains dashboards denture adhesive dentures deodorant detergents dice diesel dishes dishwasher dresses drinking cups dyes electric blankets electrician's tape enamel epoxy eyeglasses fan belts faucet washers fertilizers fishing boots fishing lures fishing rods floor wax folding doors food preservatives football cleats football helmets footballs footballs gasoline glycerin golf bags golf balls guitar strings hair coloring hair curlers hand lotion heart valves house paint ice chests ice cube trays ink insect repellent insecticides life jackets linings linoleum lipstick luggage model cars mops motor oil motorcycle helmet movie film nail polish nylon rope oil filters paint paint brushes paint rollers panty hose parachutes percolators perfumes petroleum jelly pillows plastic wood purses putty refrigerant refrigerators roller skates roofing rubber cement rubbing alcohol safety glasses shag rugs shampoo shaving cream shoe polish shoes shower curtains skis slacks soap soft contact lenses solvents speakers sports car bodies sun glasses surf boards sweaters synthetic rubber telephones tennis rackets tents tires toilet seats tool boxes tool racks toothbrushes toothpaste transparent tape trash bags tv cabinets umbrellas upholstery vaporizers vitamin capsules water pipes wheels yarn Just to name a few... | ||
| Whatever |
Don't take away my cold cream!!!  | ||
| Kenm123t |
Modern civilization is Built on oil Period. If you want to end that develop a source of energy and or materials that is ecomonicaly superior and you will replace oil Oh and i dont mean taxed in to viablity. Stop complaining and start inventing In the mean time leave your guilt trips in your own warped minds I want a nuke powered Buell no gas stops | ||
| Blake |
We don't use oil to power our lights or heat our water. >>> "The problem is now, we have a major environmental disaster." No, we don't, not yet. What we have now is a leaking well and oil floating in the Gulf of Mexico. Whether or not it turns into "a major environmental disaster" remains to be seen. Many people are working around the clock to prevent a major environmental disaster. Let's hope that they are successful. | ||
| Hex |
 Fishing Closure Credit: State of Louisiana, NOAA Updated: 5/7/2010 http://maps.google.com/maps/mpl?moduleurl=http://mw1.google.com/mw-earth-vectordb/disaster/gulf_oil_spill/gulf_oil_mapplet.xml&mapclient=google&ct=konbit&cd=0&hl=en Looks major from my perspective, maybe the view is better from Texas. | ||
| Hex |
This is not getting better on a daily basis. | ||
| Cowboy |
I just came in have been out riding my bike to day had a nice time I looked up just before I came in and the sky is still there has not fallen yety. | ||
| Sifo |
For anyone that wants to read some balanced info on what's happening... Lessons from the Gulf blowout | ||
| Glitch |
Holy Shit! I agree with Hex.  Looks major to me as well. Thanks for the link Sifo. Looks like it's not as major as some. I also agree that we can't afford to do without oil. I used to be in the plastics industry once upon a time. Opened my eyes as to what oil is. Look around you and you can see plastic is literally everywhere. Plastic also happens to be the biggest slice of the oil pie. I can't believe I agree with Hex. High five Hex! Maybe some day you'll agree with me  | ||
| Cowboy |
Just for thought----I have heard the Chinese are planing to start drilling of the coast of Florida (in international water) I sure wonder what thier safety standards are. | ||
| Glitch |
They'll probably paint the red star with lead paint. | ||
| Hex |
The reason I've stuck it out here (through thick and thin) is because I agree with all of you more than I let you believe. I read your words daily. I push you like my father pushed me to become better at whatever your cause. I love to argue. For one Buell is an engineering marvel... A lot of love here. | ||
| Hex |
Yet another Plan Z proponent: Nuke it. Before you light up them torches and haul out the pitchforks, let's look at the math: --3.5 million gallons of oil spilled...and no end in sight. (Arguably around $5.6 billion, but they were capping the well at the time) --Around $2.5 billion damage to the fishing industry --$3 billion, or more, to the tourism industries for Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, and Florida --$21 billion in market cap loss to the major companies involved So far, that's at least $25-$26 billion in damage...and the cost might just continue to rise. But, if a small nuke were placed on the sea floor right on the blow-out preventer, it would likely crush the surrounding rock and soil onto the drilled hole, sealing it up tighter than a Goldman Sachs attorney's lips. Completely obliterating that crap blow-out preventer would just be a small, personal bonus. Oh, sure, there might be a few mutant fish running around for a while, but that would just be a new attraction--I've been deep sea fishing on the Gulf Coast, and I've got to tell you, a couple of radioactive kraken would really shake up the boredom. Financially, it would bring a rosy glow (tinged with a bit of glow-in-the-dark green) to the whole political and financial mess: --The US would get to send a bill for equipment and services rendered to BP et. al for the price of one nuke, one naval vessel, and 60+ years of research and development--military spending solved! --The Republicans would immediately start shouting about how they were for nukes all along---and the Democrats would shout how the Republicans never had to cojones to use the things. Entertainment! --The Obama administration would be able to say to its critics: "Hell, yeah! We support the environment! How many administrations were willing to nuke a polluter into submission!" --The EPA would suddenly be the most powerful and feared office in Washington...which would please the hippies to no end. --The hippies and tree huggers would find themselves locked in a paradoxical argument with themselves over how bad nukes prevented the loss of all those innocent horseshoe crabs (see above)...and will never be heard from again. --Iran would decide that, just possibly, we are too crazy to deal with, and finally sit down to talk calmly and rationally--even Ahmenidijadadadudad wouldn't nuke his own country As an added bonus, you could invite the BP execs to re-enact the celebration they were having when the rig blew up--authentically, as in the same exact coordinates... Your Evilness has spoken. If you can't take good advice, then don't complain. http://caps.fool.com/Blogs/ViewPost.aspx?bpid=3888 84&t=01009469171725378296 | ||
| Hex |
Harry S. Truman was a democrat... | ||
| Cowboy |
The only good one there ever was, | ||
| B00stzx3 |
Electric cars ftmfw!!!!! Volt is hawt, Leaf is eh, Tesla Roadtser is yummmm | ||
| Hex |
I am seriously entertaining the idea of one of these as my next scoot. I commute 14 total miles daily. http://www.brammo.com/home/ | ||
| Hex |
Oh yeah, did I ever tell you that I am a Fisherman? Not commercial, but this event will impact sport-fishing in the Gulf to the Florida Keys. | ||
| Blake |
Major threat to coastal ecosystem, yes. Major disaster, not yet, hopefully not ever. >>> " I push you like my father pushed me to become better at whatever your cause. " Such arrogance and condescension are entirely unwelcome here. Honest, thoughtful, respectful discussion is welcome. We are fortunate to have some highly respected professionals here who are familiar with and some even expert in oilfield issues including blowouts and environmental effects/reclammation. Those not among that group ought to invest more time in listening ang learning than in pontificating or trying to "father" the discussion. Injecting fictional hysterics into the discussion as though valid destroys credibility. It's more akin to trolling than thoughtful debate. >>> "I think every single person in this country is responsible for this leak." Why not all people in all developed and developing nations? Why not OPEC for their criminal mob-like manipulation of the oil market, driving prices up so that expensive deep water drilling becomes economically attractive? Why not the radical terrorist regimes causing tensions instability and uncertainty in their regions, thus further exacerbating consternation in the oil market.? Why not the idiots in Washington who prevent Alaskans from developing their land based oil reserves? Why not our own corrupt and incompetent leaders who should have long ago mandated preparations to defend our coasts against this type of accident? The hard truth is that even for the worst possible scenario, the environment will recover in a very short time, decades. Relative to our own human perspective it seems horribly catastrophic. Relative to long term ecological time, it hardly registers. That won't help the short term plight of the affected wildlife or that of the fishermen or those of us who enjoy the fruits of their labors at relatively modest prices. But pretending that the oil will irreparably destroy the affected ecosystem is just pure fictional nonsense. What might be most telling for the worst case enviro-disaster scenario? What were the long term effects of the much worse Mexican blowout that went uncapped for nine months? Have the affected coastal ecosytems recovered, and to what extent? (Message edited by blake on May 10, 2010) | ||
| Hex |
Well, you've already got a Ft. Bastard, so I may indeed change my handle yet again to better reflect, at least from your perspective, my intrinsic nature.  | ||
| Hex |
I'd offer you a bottle of Sludge(TM), but I gave it all away. Maybe you'll get lucky next batch, then again, maybe not. | ||
| Hex |
And now, back to your regularly scheduled, man-made, environmental disaster... 10 May 2010 Modis Satellite NASA  http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/oil-creep.html | ||
| Sifo |
Can I change my handle? On a cold night there's nothing like a warm Dickens Cider!   | ||
| Blake |
Arrogance with great knowledge is tolerable. Arrogance awash with ignorance is not. Humility is rarely unwelcome. | ||
| Cowboy |
Att. Hex I see by your post that you are a sport fisherman I can tell by your statements that you are very concerned about polution. I have to ask how many of the many lauches on the coast have you had a chanse to visit. I thank you should see for your self how your brother fishermen abuse the invirement. If you visit a dock owened by any oil company you will find the water and the ares as clean as your home.If you visit the SPORTMENS docks you would be ashamed of the so called sports men thier dock area is covered with a oil shean from all the 2 cycle oil containers found floating in thier slip --beer cans floating all over the place card board from food and drink containers it is a disgrase the way they treat the inverment they continue to fuel up and leave the hose un attended. and a gasoine and oil slick is from side to side. I know you would never condone this behaver, but you should be careful about speaking up for them. I have found a good many of them to be pure slobs. | ||
| Hex |
You ass-u-me I fish from a boat. I do not. I am an ocean shore fly fisherman. Catch and release. |
