| Author | Message | ||
     Patches |
There just Negotiating Union Contracts like they did in York Pennsylvania. It is a Shame there WILL BE More American Workers LOOSE there Jobs in this Economy that our (YES WE CAN!) President says is doing so good. What there doing to the United States of America “SUCKS!!” F@CK the U.S. Government, Democrats and Republicans also! The next time you go to Vote Who Are You Going To VOTE FOR?? Those that Preach the Demise of Harley Davidson “SUCKS!!” F@CK them also. They should have there Job, 401K (Retirement), Nest Egg, Home and all Asset Values drop too nothing and taken away! Then they Might know what IT feels like. There is NO American Dream anymore unless your here ILLEGAL! There is NO United States of America Anymore. | ||
| Rocketsprink |
That's the attitude!!  Hard to imagine recovering in one year what took 30 years of insane economic theories and policies to screw up. We'll be lucky to see it change over the next 2 Presidential terms. I don't care who is in office. Back to the topic....Isn't what Wandell doing exactly what he was hired to do? Isn't his reputation to do whatever it takes to make the company profitable again? I guess BUELL was part of that, like it or not. He isn't here for a popularity contest (which is a good thing). (Message edited by rocketsprink on April 30, 2010) | ||
| Steve_a |
I'm certainly a former employee, but not particularly disgruntled in the sense that I think that bad people made evil decisions. I understand companies make decisions that should be based on bottom lines and future opportunities, but also include emotional and gut reactions as well. Wandell did not see Buell as important relative to Harley's core business, and helped drive decisions accordingly. I would love to have some specifics about which part of the article he believes are false; I was rather hoping they might do something that would open the legal discovery process, and make depositions possible. The engine cost estimates that were discussed in reference to the XB and Blast business cases were given to me by a non-Buell, PDC employee who sat in the meetings when they were discussed, and were confirmed by ex-Buell sources. The VR/V-Rod history has been discussed by Erik and Flickinger in public for the last several years, and I had numerous phone conversations with Erik at the time when he was in Germany beginning the initial discussions with the Porsche engineering team, before there was any discussion of Harley involvement in the project. Same thing with the Diablo turbo bike and the XB engine project; I heard this all from Erik as it was happening before I ever came to work for Buell, and was even given a chance to ride a POC Diablo. I confirmed and filled in the blanks on these two stories by talking to Harley employees who were able to explain better what the internal resistance was for what Erik wanted for his projects. As for the Bombardier desire to acquire the B2 and Griffin dirtbike projects in exchange for cash owed them by Harley/Buell, I have that on very strong authority from a number of sources, including internal ones at Bombardier. Given that documentation, I am very interested with why he would want to slander the reputation of a journalist by saying this story is false? | ||
| Elvis |
Based on the things I have seen written by or about Keith Wandell and based on the things I have seen written by or about Steve Anderson, the difference is black and white. Wandell's comments indicate a small mindedness and lack of knowledge of things related to the motorcycle world . . . and, in some cases, he has said things that I suspect aren't purely ignorant but, in my opinion, are likely dishonest (like his "7, 8, 10 Buells per day" comment, was that just stupidity or dishonesty? I can't believe a CEO could be that ignorant). Steve Anderson is a wealth of knowledge related to things in the motorcycle world and communicates fully, effectively and honestly regarding things related to motorcycles. If I'm going to be asked to take sides, it's no competition. Steve A has 10X Wandell's credibility in my book. (Message edited by elvis on April 30, 2010) | ||
| Blake |
You got that right! I've seen Steve at work in very trying situations. He always keeps his cool, is thoughtful almost to a fault and is careful in everything he states. It's pretty simple. Steve Anderson is an honest thoughtful man. Wandell represents a very unfortunate turn for HDI. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
Hard to imagine recovering in one year what took 30 years of insane economic theories and policies to screw up. We'll be lucky to see it change over the next 2 Presidential terms. I don't care who is in office. Finally, something Rocket and I agree on. | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
Steve: Given that documentation, I am very interested with why he would want to slander the reputation of a journalist by saying this story is false? With all due respect, it'd be a lot easier to give full weight to Mr. Wandell's alleged comments if they were presented in the form of a quote (in full context) instead of being paraphrased, and if the source of the comments was not posting anonymously. As presented, the words may or may not be exactly what Mr. Wandell said, they may or may not be in complete context, and the poster may or may not have an agenda. As before, I'm not trying to defend Mr. Wandell. That said, good journalistic standards should be in effect here, and in this particular instance, in my opinion, they are not. Regards. Jerry Haughton | ||
| Steve_mackay |
Steve, let me just say... Hats off to you sir for writing one of the best articles I've seen in cycle world. Bravo... Take a bow! Wandell lying about production #s, and your article just shows what kind of a scumbag he is. It's also why I started this group... | ||
| 86129squids |
I love youn's. Looking forward to Homecoming. Every time I stop at my former workplace, on my Shovel, wearing my Buell jacket, I feel a little Different. In Every Sense. Gotta get the XB back on the road, THEN I'll be good. | ||
| Jaimec |
Buell was the ONLY reason I ever stepped into a Hardly-Ableson dealership. Now that the dealer who sold me the bike dropped the brand as well and can't even service the bike they sold me, I told them to take me off their mailing list, they'll never see me again. | ||
| Steve_a |
Hi Jerry, I've already started making calls to find out exactly what Wandell said. I may have been to quick to post what I did, but I get my dander up fairly quickly when someone seemingly says that an entire article I wrote is "false". It's conceivable that something in it is wrong, and if proven so, I'll correct it. The trickiest parts of the story were the quotes attributed to Wandell himself, and I went out of my way to source them from multiple people. "Erik's Racing Hobby", the golf-playing, and the question about "Why would anyone want to ride a motorcycle like that." (paraphrase) I got from people who I consider absolutely trustworthy, as was the person who relayed the contents of the Pilgrim Road speech. I've talked to some other Buell middle managers who've run into Wandell since the shut-down, and they tell me he goes literally speechless when the subject of Buell comes up. I've also received information since the article was written that it may have understated the cost burden imposed on Buell by Harley-Davidson. Many departments at Harley had dedicated Buell staff, charged accordingly, so here's a question: How many of these people that the Buell Distribution entity was paying for have been let go since the shut-down? (Message edited by Steve_a on April 30, 2010) | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
Steve - Thx for your thoughtful (and kind) reply. I don't take issue with the validity of anything you said in your piece in Cycle World. We've not met, but we've crossed paths a bit via this sport over the years, and your reputation precedes you. The pictures being painted of Mr. Wandell and his "volatile disdain" (my words, not his) of Buell, may be entirely accurate. My only point was the desire for total accuracy in what he allegedly said regarding your article. I do not expect him to suddenly show up here to defend himself - he has no obligation to do so, of course - but if there's going to be a firestorm erupt over comments that he made, it's only fair there is reasonable evidence to believe the words are 100% his and not "colored" in any way. I've talked to some other Buell middle managers who've run into Wandell since the shut-down, and they tell me he's goes literally speechless when the subject of Buell comes up. Hmmmm. I wonder if he follows BadWeB? Take care. Jerry | ||
| Just_ziptab |
Wonder what Wandells pocket looks like after he gets the "don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out" notice? I believe guys like him, that live a level of lifestyle that we can not comprehend ..has no meaningful social life .....other than a few select upper crust friends. With that kind on money/income... you don't have to like anybody......MONEY is your friend. | ||
| Davegess |
Steve's CW article is spot on and coincides with what I know and have learned over the years. there was stuff in that I did not know but had inferred. I rather doubt the H-D will make any public statements about it. The certainly are smart enough to know the old PR technique of stonewalling. The opposition usually runs out of ammo and the public gets tired of the story long before you get in real trouble. H-D will not,I like Steve wish they would, try to take on CW over the story. it would be very cool to see them file a libel suit, the information that would come out of that would be amazing! I do think H-D has serious cost issues but cutting wages and benefits is not the answer, redoing the way they design and assemble bikes is and I am certain they are not going to change that. They had a very good model of how to do and they shut it down. | ||
| Gregr819 |
When can I get a FIRE WANDELL!! shirt to wear to work before I am laid off? | ||
| Reindog |
Steve_a, Thanks for providing us with your insight. I am still trying to cope with the death in my family and am going on a 400+ mile Uly ride tomorrow with our SCAB group. -Tom Reiner. | ||
| Whatever |
I know a few motorcycle merchants in Madison who are glad Wandell created such a clusterf***! Let me see here... 200$ for the new rear tire and mount that CC Harley Davidson will not get... $130 for the new light summer weight riding jacket... $120 for the new mid summer weight/ mesh riding jacket... $100 for the new summer boots... $100 for the new heavy duty riding boots... should I keep going... Now if I can figure out how to get bottom of the leather that EriK signed off of the HD riding jacket... I will be HD gear free!  | ||
| Lemonchili_x1 |
Wandell is still sticking to the party line  http://www.bizjournals.com/albuquerque/othercities /milwaukee/stories/2010/05/03/story10.html?b=12728 59200%5E3282881&s=industry&i=manufacturing Friday, April 30, 2010 Wandell: Decision to shut Buell operations right move The Business Journal of Milwaukee - by Rich Rovito The top executive at Harley-Davidson Inc. recently defended a decision to shutter the operations of its Buell Motorcycle Co. subsidiary, citing the sport motorcycle unit’s inability to turn a profit during its 16 years in operation under the Milwaukee motorcycle manufacturer’s ownership. “We were faced with a decision about how we should manage going forward and should we continue to invest in other brands and dilute the strength of the Harley-Davidson brand, because that’s exactly what was happening,” Harley-Davidson president and chief executive officer Keith Wandell said. Wandell’s comments came during a question-and-answer session during Harley-Davidson’s annual shareholders meeting April 24 at the Harley-Davidson Museum. A shareholder questioned Wandell about why Harley-Davidson didn’t attempt to sell the Buell business or pump more money into it in order to make it profitable. Wandell, a former top-level executive at Glendale-based Johnson Controls Inc., took over as Harley-Davidson’s chief executive in May 2009. During his first year at the company’s helm, Wandell has implemented a number of dramatic changes, including the elimination of the Buell brand. “We evaluated everything within our business,” Wandell said. “Buell is a great product with a lot of passionate people and passionate customers, but we had owned Buell for 16 years and lost money every year.” Milwaukee-based Harley-Davidson announced in October 2009 that it would discontinue the Buell line of motorcycles and shutter the division’s East Troy manufacturing complex, leaving 180 employees without jobs. The decision stunned many local dealers, while others said it was inevitable given intense foreign competition in the sport motorcycle category. Harley-Davidson made a $6.6 million capital investment in Buell in 2008 and at least a $4 million investment in 2009, Wandell said in an earlier interview. In return, the brand lost $18 million in 2008 and at least $27 million in 2009, including a $14.2 million impairment charge, he said. Wandell acknowledged to shareholders that there’s been some backlash tied to the decision to kill off Buell. “In some people’s minds it was a good decision, in some people’s minds it was a bad decision,” he said. The decision to cease Buell production came at the same time the company announced it planned to sell MV Agusta, the Varese, Italy-based manufacturer of high-performance motorcycles. Harley acquired MV Agusta Group for about 70 million euros, or $108 million, in 2008. Since MV Agusta was never integrated into Harley-Davidson, the company was able to “cleanly package” the business and put it up for sale as a stand-alone operation, Wandell said. Hard sale Buell, however, had become fully ingrained in Harley-Davidson’s business over the years, making it too difficult to sell. “The case with Buell was that it was so deeply integrated into our company both from a sales and marketing perspective, as well as manufacturing and distribution, that to unbundle that and try to value it and sell it would have been a very, very difficult and onerous task,” Wandell said. “I’ve been involved in those kinds of transactions in the past and very seldom do they turn out well.” Harley-Davidson management looked at various options pertaining to the Buell brand, including whether to keep producing the bikes but with the Harley-Davidson brand name on the fuel tanks instead of the Buell name, he said. In the end, Harley-Davidson decided that eliminating the brand was the most practical move. “It was a decision that was made in a very collaborative way with a lot of input from all of our management as well as people who were managing at Buell,” Wandell said. “The decision is behind us. We feel bad about it in a lot of ways, but our sights are set on the future and set on investing solely in the Harley-Davidson brand.” Erik Buell, a former Harley-Davidson engineer who founded Buell Motorcycle Co. in 1983, left Harley-Davidson late last year and established an independent motorcycle race shop, Erik Buell Racing. Erik Buell declined to comment. The company supplies race-use-only Buell motorcycle parts and race preparation services for engines and motorcycles; manufactures and sells Buell 1125R-based race-use-only motorcycles under license from Harley-Davidson; and provides technical support to racers of Buell motorcycles. Erik Buell Racing announced April 26 that veteran racer Geoff May would compete in the 2010 AMA Pro American Superbike series on a Buell racing bike. Was anybody from here at the shareholders meeting? | ||
| Two_buells |
Must be HD's reply to the bad press they are getting from Steve's CW article. the numbers do not make sense. in 2008 net sales were 123 million. So every bike was sold at a 3000 dollar loss? if that was the case Buell should have been closed many years ago. someone is not telling the truth....... | ||
| Delta_one |
I have seen this happen before example A body shop that was attached to a Chevy dealer here was listed as a separate venture. many repairs or installs that were sent over from the dealer were actually charged at under cost because the dealership needed to show larger profits and the body shop could be written off as a loss at the end of the year. they were owned by the same person but he was able to shift his losses and make them look like greater profits. the body shop that was creating a large portion of the income for the dealer is now closed because they had "losses" for such a long time. it had served its purpose and was shut down. originally it was opened as a something viable and with intent of making it succeed, but poor management and greed took over. the dealership starts thinking they can make more money by charging the body shop rent. yes its a lot like paying yourself to mow the lawn but when you can write off the amount as a lawn care fee it looks like free money. the body shop can write off some of the rent and the owner of can write off the losses. none of it is right and I bet a lot of it is illegal but loopholes here and there can be exploited by those that know how. | ||
| Swordsman |
There's no way in hell H-D let Buell hang around for 25 years if every bike was a loss, especially when they would have preferred to slap those riders on a Sportster anyway. Fudged numbers, pure and simple. ~SM | ||
| Delta_one |
loss for buell big gain for HD maybe. | ||
| Cyclonedon |
I now believe that the biggest loser in the decision for Harley-Davidson to drop Buell is Harley! I feel that Erik Buell will rebound and build American made motorcycles again, I can't say the same about Harley! Time will tell! | ||
| Lemonchili_x1 |
Wandell's nummbers come from what CFO John Olin during the 2009 Q3 Earnings Conference call (when the closure of Buell was announced). He said: "During the third quarter we recorded a $14.2 million impairment charge related to the fixed assets associated with Buell. The assets were written down to their estimated fair value and the charge was included within restructuring expense and other impairments line item on our income statement. In addition to restructuring charges, we anticipate approximately $60 million in costs related to helping our dealers sell their inventory and charges for obsolete inventory which will negatively impact gross margin in the fourth quarter. In addition, we expect approximately $10 million of costs in 2010. Buell revenue was $134.9 million in 2008 and $59.4 million in 2009 year-to-date. Capital expenditures related to Buell were $6.6 million in 2008 and $3.8 million September year-to-date. We estimate that the Buell product line reduced income from operations by approximately $18 million in 2008 and approximately $27 million, including the impairment charge, during the first nine months of 2009. We have not quantified the benefits of increased focus on Harley-Davidson brand as a result of discontinuing Buell nor included any potential savings in our restructuring estimates." The phrase "reduced income from operations" seems a specific choice of words. Does this mean loss or something else? With no detailed breakdown of Buell expenses can Wandell say what he likes? When discussing MV Agusta Olin was straight up with "MV Agusta revenue was $15.9 million in 2008 and $42.9 million September year-to-date. Net losses were $30.1 million in 2008 and $52.6 million through the first nine months of 2009. This includes an $18.9 million impairment charge of goodwill related to the purchase of MV Agusta reported in the third quarter." Full transcript is here. It's also interesting the repeated use of the words "approximate" or "estimate" when they discuss Buell. I'm still not happy with H-D, and it seems Wandell is happy to use Buell as a scapegoat when possible. I will do my best as a Buell enthusiast to be a tiny thorn in Wandells paw  . Sorry for the long quotes, bad habit of mine. | ||
| Glitch |
Having been a father for the past 20+ years, of three sons, I've learned the smell of bullshit. I don't always know the details, but I'm pretty good at being able to tell when someone is trying to baffle me with bullshit. Wandell's "explanation" looks to me to be a bunch of techno-babble, made to take the heat off. It is obvious he's under quite a bit of fire for offing Buell, and he's doing his best to make Buell look like a loser. It's also obvious to me, he's an "elite", no one is quite as smart as he, nor are they on the same level, making it a bother to have to qualify his decision making. All of this of course is my observation, and opinion of such. I could be totally wrong, it has been known to happen...once or twice. | ||
| Wbrisett |
Buell was the ONLY reason I ever stepped into a Hardly-Ableson dealership. Agreed. The only reason I stepped into a HD dealership was to look at Buell. I have zero interest in looking at HDs products, not because they are bad, but because they don't build a single bike that interests me. I also don't fit the part... Truth of this came yesterday when I walked into the service department and the first words out of the service writers mouth was, "I'm guessing you're on a Buell." I think my Vanson leather jacket, full-faced helmet, gloves and boots probably gave it away. I don't want to stick up for Wandell, but he is doing what he was hired to do, and that is keep HD in business and turn it around. Buell didn't fit into those plans in his mind. I'm not convinced there was some nefarious plan that was cooked up on the back room to kill Buell, but I'm also not convinced that all the facts were presented, or that they were even presented fairly. It's very easy to present the information, but do it in such a way that makes it seem wrong... ask any lawyer! I do think his recent statements, much like those Adobe's CEO has been saying on Flash, simply don't hold water in my book. It's a business and we've been given the boot. Fortunately we have some great sponsors on this board like American Sportbike who still care about Buells, along with select HD dealerships... and of course there is Erik himself with his new venture. I think the positives from this nearly outweigh the negatives. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Even taking the worst case, that some or all of Wandell's numbers regarding recent Buell "losses" are correct, Steve's article would seem to provide a very valid business explanation. A lot of Buell's recent profits were apparently dumped into R&D for a line of new, radically-designed middle weight sport bikes and the Barracuda 2. No doubt these investments were made with HD management's full knowledge and approval with the expectation of getting good returns on these investments in the next few years. Of course, Wandell's response doesn't mention any of that, he just points at the bottom line and says "wow, there you go". It's BS either way. | ||
| Jaimec |
Same here when I'd walk in wearing a one-piece Roadcrafter suit. Every time I entered the dealership I felt every eye in the place on me as I'd walk towards the service or parts desk. | ||
| Court |
>>>>someone is not telling the truth....... That's an accurate statement. It would be interesting to ask Wandell the following question.
And we are to believe that all the 7 figure gurus at Harley-Davidson never asked why, made mention of this and continually, in their legally mandated reports (required by law to reflect such things) never mentioned this. We're slowly moving from stupid to criminal. Harey-Davidson did Erik Buell the greatest favor they could have when the set him free. His standards, aspirations and dreams are so much bigger than this line of bullshit. | ||
| B00stzx3 |
Someone needs to call this dbag out. Court, would you do the honors? Then send his bumbling/bald faced lie response anonymously to the board of directors. Put a nakee chick on the cover, they'll open it with the quickness. (Message edited by b00stzx3 on May 04, 2010) |
