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Reepicheep
| | Posted on Monday, April 05, 2010 - 04:49 pm: | 
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Plus there is "taking the class" and "taking the class to heart". If you don't concentrate on turning the range instruction into your daily riding routine, it won't become muscle memory, and you won't do until you think about it (which you won't have time to do).
At first it feels a little silly to cover the clutch, cover the front brake, and really lightly drag the rear (even if I am still on the throttle) whenever my spidy sense starts tingling...
After a year or so of doing it, it's as natural as puckering.  |
Socalbueller
| | Posted on Monday, April 05, 2010 - 05:15 pm: |
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The throttle also controls the rear cylinder disable function. You can't do that with a cable.
Fly by wire allows the throttle to act as a device for inputs other than just more gas, less gas.
I don't know, but I suspect the bike issue will not be able to be replicated (just like the infamous Prius).
Why can't cylinder deactivation be done with a throttle cable and what else is the throttle used for other than telling the computer to inject more or less gas?
The "advantage" throttle by wire has over a cable is more precise fueling since the computer can adjust fuel and air simultaneously. Where as in a cable situation the computer has no control on the amount of air entering the engine, the operator does. So the computer has to react to the movement of the throttle blade. |
Ft_bstrd
| | Posted on Monday, April 05, 2010 - 05:30 pm: |
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There are also riders and students of the art.
I see all kinds. I remember when people were criticizing sales folks for selling bikes to people who should be given the keys.
I don't wear a priests collar. I'm not your parent. We sell motorcycles.
I agree that the MSF course provides only a basic skillset foundation. It is up to the rider to improve upon these basic skills. It is up to the rider to become a student of the art.
It is up to the rider to maintain control of their machine including when their machine malfunctions.
We don't know what happened. We can only surmise what happened from the story. There is NO throttle malfunction that would also disable both the brakes and the clutch or the kill switch for that matter.
Nearly every rider has crashed at one point or another. Assuming no extraneous force (or old lady in a Buick), nearly all can attribute that crash to some action the rider took or didn't take.
There is no such thing as an accident. There are only crashes with contributing factors. |
Jaimec
| | Posted on Monday, April 05, 2010 - 05:45 pm: |
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After reading Kevin Cameron's recent article on "Virtual Torque" I can understand why today's modern, high-performance superbikes have "throttle by wire." But HARLEY??
Just a marketing gimmick. There is no reason I can think of that explains the need for a Harley... ANY street Harley, to have throttle by wire. |
Froggy
| | Posted on Monday, April 05, 2010 - 06:06 pm: |
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Once they figure out steering by wire, I can rig up a camera and let the bike do all the driving. |
Reg_kittrelle
| | Posted on Monday, April 05, 2010 - 06:21 pm: |
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Jaimec...
I don't have the numbers to back this up re the throttle. But, generally speaking,circuit boards are cheaper than the mechanical parts they replace. Thus, as always, it comes down to money.
I do recall one HD engineer telling that the TbW opened up a bit of space withing the fairing ...which was needed to stuff other electronic goodies. |
Etennuly
| | Posted on Monday, April 05, 2010 - 06:50 pm: |
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Why does it seem that the collective goal is to let the machine do the driving? Not only bikes, but the auto industry has been toying with it since the Jetson's Cartoon of the sixties.
It is nice that vehicles of all types are easier to drive than they used to be. If you don't like to drive take public transportation, if you want it to be more private hire a driver. But a bike that drives itself? What for? You could program a thrilling ride, but we already have roller-coasters. If you don't want to control it, or you want to cry "do over" when a crash happens, stick to your video world.
One day you won't even have to get out of bed to ride your bike on a thrilling twisty road, visit friends, camp out, share a drink, pack up and ride home. You will have a port in the side of your head that will let you do it virtually. You will attain such oneness that you will not even need to exist, there will be no purpose, if there is nothing to do - nothing to desire. The wane of human propriety.
A lot of us like to drive, and ride. If that is taken away, the most important reason for going places would be gone. I mean who wants to actually run over to "granny's" house just to visit anyway. She gets way more visits due to being forty miles out on some nice twisty roads! |
Sifo
| | Posted on Monday, April 05, 2010 - 07:21 pm: |
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Not that I've had experience with it, but I have been told that the fly by wire on the HD allows for a cruise control that works much nicer than they could make it with a cable control. |
Wolfridgerider
| | Posted on Monday, April 05, 2010 - 09:01 pm: |
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cover the front brake......... I wouldn't advise making a habit of that....
In most situations, swerving is the better option.
If you apply the brake during a swerve it can be very bad hoodoo |
Froggy
| | Posted on Monday, April 05, 2010 - 10:14 pm: |
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quote:If you apply the brake during a swerve it can be very bad hoodoo
Yea, didn't work for me with that car stopped short  |
Ztferrari
| | Posted on Monday, April 05, 2010 - 11:20 pm: |
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This no different than the analog/digital battle that went on many years ago!
While a digital signal is discrete and analogue continuous, modern technology has allowed for almost exact digital reproduction of an analogue signal. Digital signals are far more easier to control.
While you may lose the 'feel' of the mechanical throttle, we(computers-hah) can implement much better control over a motor with a fly by wire system. For those crazy horsepower motors, this will hopefully save a few lives to those new riders who go out and buy a literbike.
BUT, call me oldschool - I'll stick with my throttle cables :-) |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 06, 2010 - 08:13 am: |
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I can cover the front brakes and not use them. In point of fact, after a minor accident, I made it a point to specifically practice a drill where I do a panic stop at speed, but transition to a hard evasive turn before without stopping the bike.
So it's like 60 MPH down to 15 mph in panic stop mode, then get off the brakes and go directly (as quickly as I can and still maintain control) into a hard evasive swerve.
It was hard to train my brain to do it. And the the M2 wouldn't do it very well... but the 9sx would do it beautifully. Haven't tried it on the Uly yet, I suspect it will be better then the M2 but not quite up to the 9sx, just because the thing is so tall and has the extra suspension travel. |
Etennuly
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 07, 2010 - 08:19 am: |
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So do the new 2010 Ultra Classic super tankers have the cable throttles or electronic fly by wire type?
My son's new one is coming in in a couple of weeks and he said there are three cables showing on the throttle side in the pictures of it on the web site. |
B00stzx3
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 07, 2010 - 09:15 am: |
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So.... when did Toyota partner up with HD? |
Buell2001b
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 07, 2010 - 09:33 am: |
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becuase Toyota makes cars for old people and so does HD.
look at the typ harley guy, smelly, overweight, not to bright to wear proper gear, drinks while riding, ugly leather bags in their backseat.
toyota=wo what a feeling, i can jump 6 inches of the floor, if i press the accelerator i might hit 20 mph and pass a burro in Bolivia, My toyota has more rust then yours.
lol |
Jramsey
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 07, 2010 - 09:53 am: |
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>>>the typ harley guy,smelly,overweight,not to bright........
Bill, did you go to school to learn this attitude or were you born with it? |
Rainman
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 07, 2010 - 10:37 am: |
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Hey, my corolla goes just as fast as the law allows! heck, so does my Blast.
Geez, come to think of it, I'm pretty boring. I need a lifestyle! |
Swordsman
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 07, 2010 - 10:56 am: |
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becuase Toyota makes cars for old people
~SM |
Sifo
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 07, 2010 - 11:04 am: |
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Ferrari makes cars for old folks! |
Cataract2
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 07, 2010 - 11:05 am: |
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The above pictures aren't helping the cause there Sword. Blah. (IMO of course.) |
Dynasport
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 07, 2010 - 11:07 am: |
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I own a Toyota and a Harley. It's amazing I'm still alive. |
Bandm
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 07, 2010 - 12:13 pm: |
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Harley's electronic throttle bodies are made by Italy's Magneti Marelli in South Carolina.
They have brake override that returns to idle if brakes are applied, no matter the position of the throttle grip.
Since 2000 electronic throttle control is as common as ABS on cars. |
Redbuelljunkie
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 07, 2010 - 01:34 pm: |
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They have brake override that returns to idle if brakes are applied, no matter the position of the throttle grip.
If the system is working properly. I am aware of at least two incidents (one a customer and the other a test) where the throttle on a Toyota is wide open and brakes fully applied- and no "failsafe" mode was activated. What's worse, there was no error code shown in either event- which makes it very hard to prove to someone who didn't witness the incident.
This is my primary concern with electronic/software control of things like throttle, brakes or steering. As far as I know, there has never been a failure attributed to a mechanical throttle, brake system, or steering system where there is no evidence of a mechanical failure. The systems are mechanically sound, or they're not- if there's no mechanical failure then they are not the cause of the problem. It's that simple.
Unfortunately, with electronic/software systems there's nothing "mechanical" to physically check to prove/disprove that a failure occurred. We rely on the system to regulate/troubleshoot itself, and then tell us what it did wrong. Sounds great, but if there is a failure, that failure can effect the system's ability to regulate itself- and there's no simple (mechanical) way to verify if there's a glitch in the system or not. If there is a mechanical failure (like a throttle cable), it is very straightforward to find the fault. For electronics and software, finding an answer can be very elusive.
I understand the push towards more and more technology, but question the use of technology just because it's available. Anyone who uses a computer is painfully aware of the fickle nature of software, and understands the frustration and set-backs caused by glitches and crashes. When behind a keyboard, an electronic/software failure can be a nuisance, but behind a wheel or handlebars it can be life of death. I am personally more comfortable with a physical/mechanical connection between me and the vehicle I am operating. Even if there is a failure, I would feel better knowing that the failure could be traced to something that physically broke and can be directly attributable as the causation of the event. It does not sit well with me to think that a failure, if it could even be found, was the result of a software/programming/electronic failure- while there's nothing mechanically wrong with any of the systems.
If Microsoft designed a parachute system that deployed your chute using an ECU and software, and it did not have a mechanical back-up system- would you use it? I'll choose a mechanical ripcord over a software-based system any day- for a parachute, throttle, brakes or steering. I'm old-fashioned. |
Froggy
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 07, 2010 - 01:41 pm: |
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quote:As far as I know, there has never been a failure attributed to a mechanical throttle, brake system, or steering system where there is no evidence of a mechanical failure.
Water/ice in my throttle cables as in the last page. Short of cutting the cable open and hoping there was some moisture or damage, there wouldn't be any evidence.
quote:If Microsoft designed a parachute system that deployed your chute using an ECU and software, and it did not have a mechanical back-up system- would you use it?
Yes, but I'm a MS fanboy |
Sifo
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 07, 2010 - 01:56 pm: |
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Anyone who uses a computer is painfully aware of the fickle nature of software, and understands the frustration and set-backs caused by glitches and crashes.
I wouldn't begin to compare a computer that is designed to handle an infinite variety of tasks with endless options of I/O devices (where many of the computer glitches originate) to the very limited purpose hardware/software found running your engine. There is little comparison with regards to what can go wrong.
As far as I know, there has never been a failure attributed to a mechanical throttle, brake system, or steering system where there is no evidence of a mechanical failure.
I know of at least 2 cases that fit your description. One was a stuck throttle on an early '80s Pontiac Sunbird. Wound up piled into a tree. Another was a brake failure on an late '70s Ford Futura. This one didn't result in a crash, but the brakes pumped up again and no problem was ever found by Ford under warranty. |
Redbuelljunkie
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 07, 2010 - 01:59 pm: |
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Water/ice in my throttle cables as in the last page. Short of cutting the cable open and hoping there was some moisture or damage, there wouldn't be any evidence.
But is this a mechanical failure, or a symptom caused by environmental conditions? It appears you were able to diagnose the problem, and the fix is relatively simple. Would a circuit board be more or less effected by water/ice/moisture, and after the evidence is gone, is there a "water/ice" error code?
My point is a throttle cable is a piece of mechanical equipment that is simple, easy to access, easy to maintain, and can be serviced/fixed by anyone. Electronic software is ethereal, non-mechanical, complex, not easily user-servicable, and can fail from no outside forces what so ever- it can just become "confused". Of the two, I prefer a mechanical device for operations such as sky diving, throttles, brakes and steering. But that's just me...
And, would you honestly prefer a software-based cute deployment system over a ripcord... really? If I had to use one, I would definitely insist on having an Apple ECU.  |
Steve_mackay
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 07, 2010 - 02:00 pm: |
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quote:Yes, but I'm a MS fanboy
At least you openly admit it
And it's "fanboi". Get it straight!
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fan boi |
Sifo
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 07, 2010 - 02:36 pm: |
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Compare the computer to a cheap Timex digital watch. The watch works flawlessly all the time. The watch still has a fairly diverse set of functions available. The functions it performs are very finite and the hardware and I/O interface is known during development. I've never heard of a digital watch crashing, only having batteries go dead after a few years. That's the difference between a computer and purpose specific hardware/software devices. Yet the watch still probably has more going on in it than the system the controls a throttle. |
Crackhead
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 07, 2010 - 03:13 pm: |
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Redbuelljunkie, it sounds like you prefer carbs to EFI. |
Fast1075
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 07, 2010 - 03:44 pm: |
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I have crashed several digital watches...you just need a strong enough magnetic field....or a BFH! |
Redbuelljunkie
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 07, 2010 - 04:19 pm: |
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Not at all- EFI works pretty darn well. It's not perfect, though. I have heard may a comment made by people trying to get their mapping right that it sure was easier to do with a carb.
If there's an EFI failure, it takes the form of an engine running poorly, or not running at all. I can deal with that. What I would not like, however, is to have software issues in a system where the engine, transmission, throttle, brakes and steering are all electronically tied to one another (Toyota). I personally don't see the need to have so much electronic control- of the 26 motorcycles I have owned, I can honestly say the only failures/issues I have had have been electronic/EFI related. I have not experienced any mechanical failures, but still prefer an EFI engine over carbs even though I have experienced EFI trouble in the past- but never a carb issue.
I guess it comes down to the illusion of control- I prefer to believe I have direct control over the machine, instead of an electronic translator. I can accept my failures/mistakes, and I can accept mechanical failure/breakage. It's the idea of a program- 1 and 0, on or off, being the link between me and a throttle, or brakes, or steering that really gives me the willies. If all the mechanical devices are working, and the biological brain and systems are working, but there's a failure in the "electronic" brain- I find that hard to accept.
Why- because I don't see why it's necessary to have an "electronic brain" controlling certain systems (throttle, brakes, and steering). It's almost Rube Goldberg-esque to me- you replace a simple (and proven) cable throttle with a potentiometer connected to an electric motor (whose sole purpose is to "push back" to give the operator the "impression" that they're actually operating a mechanical throttle), and then an electronic wire carries a signal to the actual throttle where another electronic motor does the work that the cable used to. Why? It's the same with brakes and steering- replace a simple, mechanical system with a complex, electronic, software-dependent system in order to gain what? What is the real reason behind this- is it cost, packaging, marketing... what? Do all vehicles need electronic throttle, brakes and steering systems, or is it more the case that because they're available they should be used? I guess I just need someone to explain to me, in a convincing way, why I should prefer electronic control of my throttle, brakes and steering instead of the systems that have worked perfectly for me for years. If someone could, I just may change my mind. |
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