| Author | Message | ||
     Ft_bstrd |
Proxy War We didn't just wake up one day and think "hey them towel heads could use some Stinger Missiles and chemical weapons". | ||
| Hex |
Evil is evil, no matter the magnitude. Violence begets violence. Pacifism is about breaking the cycle of violence. | ||
| Bigdaddy |
Reindog, I honestly don't know if Lord of The Rings plagiarized the King James bible or not  | ||
| Gregtonn |
"I'm against war." "War is a symptom of dysfunctional national relationships." Would you care to explain you're comments as to how they apply to the American Civil War? One could assume, that as a pacifist, you would prefer to accept slavery rather than lift a hand to end it. G | ||
| Carbonbigfoot |
Evil is evil, no matter the magnitude. Violence begets violence. Pacifism is about breaking the cycle of violence. You, sir, are a fool. There will never be peace with Islam. http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/ Never. And this is not by our choice, but by theirs. Even if you are not a religious person, if you are not a devout Muslim, you need to die. And for what it's worth, each and every single one of the non-radical Muslims that does not decry the behavior of the radicals is just as guilty. Rob | ||
| Reindog |
You, sir, are a fool. Now, now....play nice. Hex is a good guy and he means well. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Evil is evil, no matter the magnitude. Violence begets violence. Pacifism is about breaking the cycle of violence. That sounds all nice and enlightened, but it simply isn't true. Were it true, only violent people would be attacked. Only evil people have bad things visited upon them. Since you prefer the scientific approach, let's evaluate your statements from a proof of theory standpoint. Please name a tribe, people, or nation who has been able to overcome naked aggression and violence simply through pacifism. Please name a tribe, people, or nation who's attackers stopped their pursuit of blood in the face of their reluctance to fight. Human beings aren't enlightened. Human beings aren't different than we were 2,000 years ago or 5,000 years ago. Our technology is better, but that which is the human nature is no different. Although the teaching of Christ is to "turn the other cheek" and to forgive your brother "70 times 7" times, giving one's life in service and defense of others is, as described by Jesus, the greatest love. Jesus knew and taught, that there would always be evil, violence, hatred even in the face of love. "If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you." --John 15:19 | ||
| Blake |
"Who trained, supplied, armed, then abandoned Saddam and Osama? We did." So then your logic is that if we train, supply, arm, the enemy our enemy, helping them repel invaders, then leave when the fight is done, that we deserve to have our capital city attacked and our civilians slaughtered en'masse? Too much dope can rot a good brain. | ||
| Sifo |
Hex, If you are asleep at home and suddenly woken up by the sound of broken glass, then hear someone rummaging around your house, do you... 1) Find the best weapon at your disposal and confront them? 2) Call 911 on the phone in your bedroom? 3) Hide under the bed and hope for the best? 4) Confront them and explain the superior ways of pacifism? 5) Please offer an alternate method that works with your views of pacifism. I think this answer can offer some insights into your way of thinking. Feel free to expand on your response as necessary. | ||
| Hootowl |
Best movie ever. DUDE: Walter, you can't do that. These guys're like me, they're pacifists. Smokey was a conscientious objector. WALTER: You know Dude, I myself dabbled with pacifism at one point. Not in Nam, of course-- DUDE: And you know Smokey has emotional problems! WALTER: You mean--beyond pacifism? | ||
| Drkside79 |
Sifo the correct answer is call grab the weapon call 911 and wait. | ||
| Drkside79 |
Greg, Lincoln didn't free a single slave until after the South seceded from the union. The War boiled down to the social and economic differences between the North and South and most importantly States Rights. In fact the Emancipation Proclamation was only put out there as a scare tactic to bring the south back in the union. Also the proclamation only effected 10 states, the slave owning states of Kentucky, Missouri, Maryland, and Delaware were unaffected as they did not secede from the Union. Now I would like to thank you for jumping on Hex's back. And slandering him with your obnoxious statement. One could assume, that as a pacifist, you would prefer to accept slavery rather than lift a hand to end it. So one could assume that you speak of things you know little about. (Message edited by drkside79 on March 03, 2010) | ||
| Hootowl |
Yes, an interesting bit of history most are unaware of. As far as most schools go, the war was about slavery. It is ingrained in the American psyche. Lincoln actually wrote the proclamation a long time before it was issued. The North was losing you see, and it would have sounded desperate if released. He waited until the North won a major battle. I'm no history major, so I can't provide dates etc. | ||
| Drkside79 |
BTW Hoot The dude abides  | ||
| Hootowl |
I take comfort in that. | ||
| Drkside79 |
Good just get your self a good Sasparilla and you'll see him in the finals. | ||
| Reindog |
TBL is probably the best movie of all time. Walter is no pacifist. I wonder if Hex could get us a toe. Hex? ------------------------ WALTER You want a toe? I can get you a toe, believe me. There are ways, Dude. You don't wanna know about it, believe me. DUDE But Walter-- WALTER I'll get you a toe by this afternoon--with nail polish. These f**king amateurs. They send us a toe, we're supposed to sh1t our-selves with fear. Jesus Christ. My point is-- DUDE They're gonna kill her, Walter, and then they're gonna kill me-- WALTER Well that's just, that's the stress talking, Dude. So far we have what looks to me like a series of victimless crimes-- DUDE What about the toe? WALTER FORGET ABOUT THE F**KING TOE! | ||
| 46champ |
The Emancipation Proclamation was released on September 22 1862. After the Union victory at the Battle of Antietam on September 17 1862. The single bloodiest day of the war with approximately 23,000 casualties. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
The Civil War didn't begin with the Emancipation Proclamation. The Federal Government was willing to allow slavery to die a slow death. There were a series of compromises and decisions that lead to South Carolina and the rest of the states seceding from the union: Dred Scott Decision Dred Scott Decision Missouri Compromise Missouri Compromise Compromise of 1850 Compromise of 1850 Kansas Nebraska Act Kansas Nebraska Act Three Fifths Compromise Three Fifths Compromise Harpers Ferry Raid John Brown and the Harpers Ferry Raid The nation was set on a collision course over slavery. It wasn't just a question of state's rights. It was a question of whether slavery was going to be allowed to expand or be limited. The south wanted preservation and expansion of slavery and were willing to go to war. | ||
| Drkside79 |
It was a question of whether slavery was going to be allowed to expand or be limited. The south wanted preservation and expansion of slavery and were willing to go to war. Very true. However No one would have taken away the southern Slaves had they no seceded. At least not at that time. Either way that's not my point. My point was that someone linking "I'm against war" to being pro slavery is absolute rubbish. And then justifying it with a half truth is even worse. By the way Slavery fell under "States Rights" | ||
| Hex |
You'll get a lot of rubbish here, I produce some myself. I remove myself when I start to write hateful ideas. Anger is good, hate is bad. I liked what carbonbigfoot had to say. His truth is exactly why this violence will never end. He owns it like many patriots. To answer Sifo's question, I would call 911 on my cell phone as I removed myself from danger. Fight or flight? I think there is a big difference between defending yourself against crime and creating your next enemy. What other Proxy Wars are going to come back to haunt us? As far as Blake is concerned, then leave when the fight is done, well, I guess it wasn't over when we said it was over now was it? As unreal as a quest for non-violence? What is TBL, I don't know if I've seen that movie, but I will watch it if you tell me what it is. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
By the way Slavery fell under "States Rights" Not exactly. The states where slavery had always been permitted and where the states sought to preserve slavery were in no danger of losing their ability to have citizens own slaves. The question was whether or not these states were going to have their voice reduced in the legislature. The southern states saw a continued encroachment in the expansion of slavery. They felt the only solution was to leave the union in order to preserve their right to own slaves unimpeded by current or future legislators. Lincoln was anti-slavery but not to the extent that he would have gone to war over the issue. The states seceding from the union provided the mechanism of change. Once the southern states crossed that line and waged open war on the union, there was a price to be paid not only in blood but in the loss of the ability to own slaves. One might be construed as being pro-slavery by refusing to fight on behalf of the union. By allowing the south to separate from the union, slavery would be preserved. Had 100% of the population of the north been pacifists, the south would be a separate country and slavery would have been preserved. There are times when war/fight is the ONLY answer. Pacifism, as an absolute, is unworkable. It sounds nice and all Richard Gere, but it simply isn't workable. | ||
| Kenm123t |
pacifist = dead in the real world Ask the Jews at krystalnacht how they faired after. Your are attacked for two reasons most of the time. 1 you have something they want and think they take by force and win 2 they want you to do something Insert ( Liberal agendas and in this case Islam ) those items will vary case by case. Violence happens when negotiations break down or reach an impass. Just plain crazy people will attack you for no reason appearant to the victim however the perp feels totally justified. Example Cap and Trade tax people for irrational fears of carbon and global warming. | ||
| Hex |
There are no absolutes on this earth. We can't even get absolute zero in physics if such a thing really exists. Pacifism is a flawed human ideal just like all the rest. But that doesn't stop some from seeking non-violent solutions to their dysfunctionalities. | ||
| Drkside79 |
I agree that at times WAR is the only way that things will get solved. That however does not make it right nor agreeable. BTW Evil is evil, no matter the magnitude. Violence begets violence. Pacifism is about breaking the cycle of violence. All of that is true. However what you said is also true. There are very few absolutes in this world. Bad things happen to good people all the time. However it is the way we respond to it that defines us. While sometimes aggression is the only answer, I find that walking around at all times puffing your chest out and rattling your saber to be the mark of a true fool. | ||
| Drkside79 |
There are no absolutes on this earth. We can't even get absolute zero in physics if such a thing really exists. Damn i didn't see that you had already said that. | ||
| Hootowl |
Was the power to abolish slavery delegated to the federal government in the Constitution? | ||
| Hex |
I think our wars problems and our economy problems are interrelated. A world wide loss of confidence in just leadership and moral compass. In just a few short years we lost our status as a unifying, peace bringing, liberal democratic, super-heroic-world-saving-nation. Vengeance is a deadly sin. | ||
| Sifo |
To answer Sifo's question, I would call 911 on my cell phone as I removed myself from danger. Fight or flight? I think there is a big difference between defending yourself against crime and creating your next enemy. What other Proxy Wars are going to come back to haunt us? But Hex, here's the problem with that from a pacifist's point of view. You are calling someone in to protect you (probably just clean up) where you are unwilling to. The police come with billy clubs, guns and the threat of violence. When provoked they will escalate to violence up to and including the killing of the perpetrator. What you have done is simply call in a proxy to do the violence for you. You claim that violence begets violence, but now you advocate violence by proxy? Please tell me you see the hypocrisy of this. I really don't understand your position at all. This is no different than a nations citizens calling upon it's military to defend them when terrorists attack. Please explain the difference! | ||
| Reindog |
1) TBL == "The Big Lebowski" by the Coen brothers. I never get tired of watching it. Check it out and become an Achiever. The Dude abides. I take comfort in that. 2) Read "The Creature from Jekyll Island" to understand the Federal Reserve and why wars are fought. It ain't pretty. |
