| Author | Message | ||
     Cravacor |
If the acceleration failure is not related to the ECM, as Toyota claims, why is part of the fix to reflash the ECM?  | ||
| Cravacor |
For all those that assert that the Japanese government doesn't have a massive financial stake in Toyota, Google the words "Keiritsu" and "Toyota" together. Also, note that imports represent less than 10% of all cars sold in Japan, this has to do with a couple of factors. Japanese citizens are about 99% ethnic Japanese, they are very loyal to their industries. Japanese auto makers will revoke the franchises of any dealers who want to sell imports. Each individual car imported into Japan needs to be physically inspected by the Ministry of Trade for 2 days before it can be sent to a dealer. The second 2 items are overt obstructionism. OTOH, the US has the most open & free market of any industrialized nation. | ||
| Sifo |
If the acceleration failure is not related to the ECM, as Toyota claims, why is part of the fix to reflash the ECM? Numerous possible answers... 1) The Prius sounds like it has it's own problem that is a software issue. Froggy described it and I have read other accounts that sound the same. 2) It may be a change in how some safety features operate that aren't associated with the cause. Such as Froggy's suggestion that the user might hit the off button repeatedly instead of holding it until it turns off. 3) It may be additional logic to reduce the engine power when the user stands on both the accelerator and the brake at the same time. Speed could also be factored in and the exact tuning would need to be examined so that you don't just shut down the engine when a two footed driver rests there foot on the brake. We've all seen them driving around with the brake lights on. 4) They could be adding logic that can store some info about operating conditions in the event of a crash hoping to capture some real data if this is blamed on a crash. I assume there's at least some ability to store information much like it can store codes when the engine sensors go bad. That's just off the top of my head. I'm sure there's other possibilities. | ||
| Sifo |
For all those that assert that the Japanese government doesn't have a massive financial stake in Toyota Has anyone made that assertion? | ||
| Court |
I've got 5 vehicles ..... All made in the USA. I'd take a Toyota over a GM any day though .... Particularly after all the problems with the new Camaro. | ||
| Rwven |
Car & Driver Magazine on Toyota's stuck throttle syndrome. http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/how_to_d eal_with_unintended_acceleration-tech_dept Short excerpt from the article: Hit the Brakes Certainly the most natural reaction to a stuck-throttle emergency is to stomp on the brake pedal, possibly with both feet. And despite dramatic horsepower increases since C/D’s 1987 unintended-acceleration test of an Audi 5000, brakes by and large can still overpower and rein in an engine roaring under full throttle. With the Camry’s throttle pinned while going 70 mph, the brakes easily overcame all 268 horsepower straining against them and stopped the car in 190 feet—that’s a foot shorter than the performance of a Ford Taurus without any gas-pedal problems and just 16 feet longer than with the Camry’s throttle closed. From 100 mph, the stopping-distance differential was 88 feet—noticeable to be sure, but the car still slowed enthusiastically enough to impart a feeling of confidence. We also tried one go-for-broke run at 120 mph, and, even then, the car quickly decelerated to about 10 mph before the brakes got excessively hot and the car refused to decelerate any further. So even in the most extreme case, it should be possible to get a car’s speed down to a point where a resulting accident should be a low-speed and relatively minor event. | ||
| Sifo |
That's what I keep saying! | ||
| Alchemy |
Also from the article: "The furor began when an off-duty California Highway Patrolman crashed a loaner Lexus ES350 at high speed, killing himself, his wife and their daughter, and his brother-in-law." It will be interesting to see what Consumer Reports says as this unfolds. In discussion with an electronics tech I know who has a Toyota himself, he says the SW in Toyota allows the throttle to be pegged even if the brake is applied. He claims most modern auto SW disengages the throttle to idle if the brake is applied. This is still rumor in my book but I have not seen it disputed either. I suspect we will know a lot more about the innerds of the engine management system over time. | ||
| Rwven |
That CHiP's crash just doesn't ring true to me. A Highway Patrolman has a lot of training in emergency vehicle handling. There was time for someone in the car to get off a 911 cell phone call and explain the situation. A highly trained professional driver doesn't know how to take a car out of gear? | ||
| Iamike |
Perception of quality is always interesting. I long term rented a '79 Crown Vic that was the biggest pile of junk I've ever driven. The clincher was when I was driving during an ice storm and the driver's side wiper decided it preferred the ditch over the windshield. This while passing two semis in a curve. Instantly all I could see were the trailer duals out my passenger window. Next was a few years later when the Ford union was on strike and they were wearing t-shirts that stated "I'd rather push a Chevy than drive a Ford". Gives you a warm fuzzy on their feelings about doing good work. Now after the buyout and Ford's recent rise in superior quality I wouldn't hesitate to buy one. But I bet now would be a great time to buy a Toyota too. | ||
| Cravacor |
I had an '83 Crown Vic LTD, I loved it. comfortable, powerful, and very stylish. It was gold with a white vinyl roof, gold velour interior with fake wood accents. Lots of chrome inside & out. The quality was great too, when I owned it the car was 10 years old & everything worked. The only problems I had were sagging rear coil springs (fixed with "helpers" from Autozone) and a leaking rear main seal, which since I did not attend to, eventually caused the main bearings to fail due to lack of lubrication. Iamike, not sure what "buyout" you are referring to? Ford has been a publicly held company trading on the NYSE since 1956 and did not receive support from the government in the latest round of "bail-outs". Ford quality has been steadily rising for about the last 30 years. I guess your Crown Vicky was the last POS they built.  | ||
| Court |
One thing that always comes back to me is something I heard during the days of the Audi "unintended acceleration" . . . "there has never been a vehicle made that will overpower it's brakes". No clue if it's true . . but I've never driven one that I can't stop at full throttle. | ||
| Slaughter |
Yabbut we're not talking about vehicles being driven by folks who are calmly pondering unintended acceleration at their keyboards. Re-play the 911 call of the cop on his cell phone who is about to wipe out his whole family. We're all Monday-morning quarterbacking. The question needs asking to Toyota (Mr Toyoda) really comes down to "WHAT DID YOU KNOW AND WHEN DID YOU KNOW IT?" (and what actions were taken, and when) Profits are always a big driver in these decisions. It'll be interesting to see how this all shakes out. I know my Mom got a Honda Fit just last week instead of a Toyota Yaris as much for the features and reputation of the Honda as for the BAD REPUTATION of Toyota right now (and you think HD Dealers can be stupid??? Visit Toyota dealers sometime) We (kids) did TONS of research in an attempt to find her a 5-door domestically produced economy car and the closest we could come is the 2011 Ford Focus (but she was NOT going to wait another 18 months for a "maybe" car) | ||
| Cravacor |
There is a lot at play here: Is the government grandstanding & taking political advantage? Yes. Where some of these incidents really a result of people mashing the accelerator, not the brakes? Perhaps, especially considering some of these failures happened to elderly people. Are there problems with the Toyota ECM software? Very likely. Is GM benefiting from this? Yes, but so are all manufacturers, foreign & domestic. Like most cases the Watergate phenomenon is at play. "It's not the crime, but the cover-up." | ||
| Sifo |
The brakes on almost all cars are much more powerful than the engine. Just compare 0-60 times to 60-0 times. Try it in what ever you drive. I can see where eventually the brakes would overheat and fade, but they should buy you enough time to get it out of gear, or turn the engine off and certainly should keep you out of triple digit speeds. Some of these stories read like a Stephen King story. | ||
| Pwnzor |
I drive a 1988 Honda CRX Si. I bought it with ~125,000 miles on it, on lien sale from a tow yard for $500. I spent another $200 on a new fuel pump and an alternator. $80 for a good battery. $65 to register. $250 for 4 new tires. Grand total $1095 spent. It doesn't leak. It runs absolutely perfect. It gets 38mpg no matter how hard I mash the pedal. EVERYTHING in the car works as originally intended. I have owned eight Honda motorcycles, one lawnmower, and one 6500W generator. I have had ZERO problems with any of these things, none have ever left me stranded or failed during service. Mom's Odyssey van is likewise perfect, 8 years of flawless operation. I was sure something would go wrong with the electric sliding doors, but they act like new too. No real point to all this... I'm just sayin' | ||
| Court |
I'm feeling kinda cool these days . . . we own 5 vehicles . . . they are made in:
Doesn't look like that list will hold long . . . but kinda col for the present. I am always amazed, during these "Buy American" discussions . . . at home many folks drive foreign autos. Anyone else here own NOTHING except American made vehicles? Just curious | ||
| Court |
Hahahahaha . . . an 4 bicycles . . . all made in Waterford, WI.  | ||
| Sifo |
Anyone else here own NOTHING except American made vehicles? We have 2 GM cars, a Buell, A HD, and a Triumph. All but one is US. Bicycles - 1 Santa Cruz, 1 Yeti, 2 Kleins. All US made there. | ||
| Cravacor |
Jeep Grand Cherokee - Made in Detroit Mercury Sable - Made in Chicago Buell 1125CR - Made in East Troy Honda CB750 - Japan Yamaha FZ1 - Japan Yamaha XS750 - Japan Honda CRX - Japan Nissan Maxima - Japan Hey Pwnzor, my CRX is a '91 DX with 70k miles on it. I am thinking it is probably one of the lowest miles CRXs in existence. Court, I'm guessing you have an F-Series & a Focus? I have taken a self guided tour of the Wayne Assembly, it is an amazing facility. | ||
| Rwven |
Honda Element - USA Nissan Frontier - USA XB12XT - USA | ||
| Court |
I bought the Focus because the new "E Series" Cabriolet doesn't come out until April. The Focus is an AMAZING car. It had a $22,000 sticker and I bought it for $16,000. It came with ALL the stuff the $65,000 car did. . . . heated leather seats, sunroof (as opposed to the convertible in the E Series Cab) and a kick ass super stereo. The Synch is awesome . . .the moment I sit in the car . . whatever is playing on my iPhone comes over the cars super sound system. Ford has their stuff together. I also am shopping for another German car . . . been to 3 dealers this week . . but one of the constraints is that the Ford F-150 stays. Easy to see why it remains the most popular of vehicles. Cheap and dependable. | ||
| Scott_in_nh |
2000 Jeep Cherokee -USA 1999 Buell S3 -USA 1971 Glastron GT160 with 1971 Mercury 1150 outboard -USA 1992 Arctic Cat -USA | ||
| Etennuly |
OMG!  The Girl Scouts of America.....that is right,of the USA, are having a recall on their 2010 lemon flavored cookies! It seems the lemon flavoring had some fauxpas that makes it taste bad, won't hurt you, it just does not taste the way they should. The sky is definitely falling!  | ||
| Garyz28 |
2001 Chevy Tahoe 1996 Z28 Camaro 1970 GMC 3/4 Ton Pickup 2006 Buell Ulysses I have been driving for 35 years. The Camaro is the only vehicle I have ever owned that wasn't built in the USA. (St. Therese, Quebec) | ||
| Dwardo |
2002 Focus "assembled" in Mexico 1994 Buick Roadmaster Wagon - Detroit 1982 GMC 3/4 pickup - Detroit 1954 Hudson Super Wasp - Detroit 1953 Hudson Hornet - Detroit 1977 MGB - England, but disassembled so doesn't count 1974 Norton Commando - England 2002 H-D Road King 2002 Buell Cyclone No Jap Crap | ||
| Sparky |
Currently: 2009 Buell 1125R 2005 Corvette Coupe 2003 Saturn Ion 1996 Buell S1 1969 Meyers Manx SR (Corvair engine, street buggy body by Stewart Reed for Bruce Meyers, Fountain Valley, SoCal) 1965 Dodge Dart 1974 Bultaco Matador, non-running - Spain 1972 Suzuki TS185, non-running - Japan 1971 Hodaka 100, non-running - Japan 1978 Suzuki JR50, runs sometimes - Japan Formerly: 2003 Buell XB9R 1998 Buell S3 1988 Olds Cutlass 1987 H-D FXRT 1979 VW Bus - Germany 1970 VW Bus - Germany 1963 Corvette Coupe 1962 Buick Skylark 1954 Ford w/Buick V8 1940 Ford pickup w/Olds V8 1936 Ford pickup project, no engine 1961 Sunbeam Alpine - England 1958 Sears Allstate Cruisaire (by Piaggio) - Italy It was around the time when I bought the Harley that I felt especially proud to "Buy American" and buy into a brand that wholeheartedly exemplified that sentiment. Still do. | ||
| Johnnymceldoo |
The senate health care bill as it relates to union health care plans tells me enough information about UAW auto makers and helps me decide if I want to give them my hard earned money. | ||
| Brumbear |
I don't know if this helps one way or another but I just bought as some of you may know a toyota Camry sport 2010. I ran the vin in Toyota data base and turns out it is not effected or recalled because it uses a DENSO accelerator even though it was assembled in the US. So maybe it really is just the switch? | ||
| Davegess |
One thing that makes me wonder about this mechanical fix; your brakes will stop the car even with the throttle pegged BUT if the electronics are whacked they may be activating the antilock brake feature to reduce braking pressure thus giving yo a car that can't stop even with the pedal pushed down hard. |
