| Author | Message | ||
     Ft_bstrd |
The difference is that Republicans never crashed planes into buildings, and Bush was referring to those harboring terrorists. I can understand the confusion. | ||
| Sifo |
Wow Hex. You do realize that the "with us or against us" was dealing with fighting terrorism, not dealing with passing legislation in Congress, don't you? More liberal twisting of facts to fit what they want at the moment? | ||
| Hex |
It set a very authoritarian tone, could have been worded differently by a better politician, and things might not be so divided today. What do I know? I'm powerless. | ||
| Sifo |
Personally I think you should set an authoritarian tone when you are going into battle. Literally going into battle, not playing politics in Congress. Huge difference. BTW the tone was set in the Clinton Admin. I have no doubt that you will blame Republicans for that fiasco too, but Clinton did it all to himself. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
"Authoritarian tone" is exactly what you want from a President at war. Yesterday, Dec. 7, 1941 - a date which will live in infamy - the United States of America was suddenly and deliberately attacked by naval and air forces of the Empire of Japan. The United States was at peace with that nation and, at the solicitation of Japan, was still in conversation with the government and its emperor looking toward the maintenance of peace in the Pacific. Indeed, one hour after Japanese air squadrons had commenced bombing in Oahu, the Japanese ambassador to the United States and his colleagues delivered to the Secretary of State a formal reply to a recent American message. While this reply stated that it seemed useless to continue the existing diplomatic negotiations, it contained no threat or hint of war or armed attack. It will be recorded that the distance of Hawaii from Japan makes it obvious that the attack was deliberately planned many days or even weeks ago. During the intervening time, the Japanese government has deliberately sought to deceive the United States by false statements and expressions of hope for continued peace. The attack yesterday on the Hawaiian islands has caused severe damage to American naval and military forces. Very many American lives have been lost. In addition, American ships have been reported torpedoed on the high seas between San Francisco and Honolulu. Yesterday, the Japanese government also launched an attack against Malaya. Last night, Japanese forces attacked Hong Kong. Last night, Japanese forces attacked Guam. Last night, Japanese forces attacked the Philippine Islands. Last night, the Japanese attacked Wake Island. This morning, the Japanese attacked Midway Island. Japan has, therefore, undertaken a surprise offensive extending throughout the Pacific area. The facts of yesterday speak for themselves. The people of the United States have already formed their opinions and well understand the implications to the very life and safety of our nation. As commander in chief of the Army and Navy, I have directed that all measures be taken for our defense. Always will we remember the character of the onslaught against us. No matter how long it may take us to overcome this premeditated invasion, the American people in their righteous might will win through to absolute victory. I believe I interpret the will of the Congress and of the people when I assert that we will not only defend ourselves to the uttermost, but will make very certain that this form of treachery shall never endanger us again. Hostilities exist. There is no blinking at the fact that our people, our territory and our interests are in grave danger. With confidence in our armed forces - with the unbounding determination of our people - we will gain the inevitable triumph - so help us God. I ask that the Congress declare that since the unprovoked and dastardly attack by Japan on Sunday, Dec. 7, a state of war has existed between the United States and the Japanese empire. --Franklin D. Roosevelt Sounds very "either with us or against us" to me. } | ||
| Reindog |
The entire gang is in this youtube clip railing against reconciliation. Biden might be the person making the final call of whether reconciliation will be used against the will of the American people. As the Churchlady says, "Isn't THAT special." | ||
| Blake |
Intellectual dishonesty sucks.
Cause after being attacked, losing 3,000 to the mass murder, and having much of one of our capital cities laid to waste, we should talk gently, so those who might not be so fond of us will then be nice and play along? Chamberlain and Daladier thought likewise. History proved them fools. | ||
| Sifo |
Hey Hex, I'm just curious, thinking back to when GWB made that statement about either being with us or against us... Did you see your self as being with or against? I'd really like an honest answer. | ||
| Hootowl |
"With us or against us", in the context GW used in in, related to enabling terrorists with facilities, money, etc. Some countries tried to remain neutral, neither assisting, nor inhibiting those activities. Allowing a terrorist organization to use your banks, and treating them like any other customer was no longer acceptable in GW's eyes. You, by failing to stop such activity, are complicit, and thus are "against us" in our fight against terrorism. Makes perfect sense to folks who do not suffer from BDS. | ||
| Hex |
I'm against war. I'm against torture. I'm against politicians and lawyers calling these two things different names and saying they're ok. I'm against not owning responsibility for creating our own enemies. I'm against regimes which do not tolerate a voice of dissent. (Message edited by hex on March 02, 2010) | ||
| Aesquire |
I'm pretty much with you on the torture thing, and have complained about outsourcing same from the Clinton admin. to today. ( yep, it's still apparently policy. ) I don't get the "...creating our own enemies" bit? Is that a call to abandon our evil freedom of religion? Or perhaps a desire to take the karmic burden of European Crusades long before your birth? I'm also with ya on regimes that don't tolerate dissent. ( I'm really hoping you meant dissent & not decency ) | ||
| Blake |
But apparently you're not against the mass-murdering islamist-fascist terrorists. You'd rather blame America for their actions. Typical punitive liberalism nonsense. (Message edited by blake on March 01, 2010) | ||
| Sifo |
I'm against war. I'm against torture. I'm against politicians and lawyers calling these two things different names and saying they're ok. I'm against not owning responsibility for creating our own enemies. I'm against regimes which do not tolerate a voice of decent. You seem to be against answering my question. Did you see your self as being with or against US? | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I'm against war. ALL war or just the one's you don't support? I'm against torture. Since you could count on one hand the sanctioned use of "torture", I don't think it's much of an issue here. Me on the other hand. I'm willing to have our guys filet their guy in full view if their family as a message to those who might come after that it isn't a good idea. I don't really even care if we get actionable intelligence. I hate communism, but I like the way Russia handles terrorists and criminals. I'm against not owning responsibility for creating our own enemies. Other than abandoning Israel and becoming an Islamic nation, there is little we can do to prevent the "creation of our own enemies" among this ilk. I'm against regimes which do not tolerate a voice of decent. Great. You should be against Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan..... You have been following the beatings, rapes, and murders of dissidents in Iran, right? | ||
| Aptbldr |
Here's video, 1933 US gov't film-short, counseling citizens to celebrate inflation as good-sign of Country getting out of its funk: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3e0_1235601005 It's ten minutes. These relics are interesting and entertaining. | ||
| Hex |
War is a symptom of dysfunctional national relationships. | ||
| Strokizator |
So then, throughout history when an invading army gave the local citizenry the option to surrender, or covert to Islam, or whatever, or be prepared to fight, your answer would have been, what - to do a quick self examination and wonder what is was you did to cause these invaders hate you so much? Heck, even the peace loving Tibetans fought against the Chi-coms. | ||
| Hex |
Gahndi didn't fight. | ||
| Johnnymceldoo |
Neither did the Jews. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Hex, Publicly post your address openly on the internet, and I'm sure someone will be happy to come over to kill you, your wife and children, and take your stuff. It won't be murder/robbery. It'll be a "dysfunctional personal relationship". (Message edited by ft_bstrd on March 02, 2010) | ||
| Blake |
Jeremy is speaking purely illustratively of course, not actually wanting or intending to murder or steal from anyone. | ||
| Blake |
"Neither did the Jews." Unfair mis-characterization I think. | ||
| Reindog |
Who's Gahndi? | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Jeremy is speaking purely illustratively of course Absolutely, but the illustration still stands. | ||
| Hex |
Jesus didn't fight. | ||
| Court |
>>>>which do not tolerate a voice of decent That's pretty funny. I'm not sure if it was intentional or not but it made me giggle in the office. | ||
| Hootowl |
Jesus was arrested, tortured, and then executed. As much as I admire the man, I'd rather not suffer a similar fate. | ||
| Hootowl |
I'm not sure who said it, but... "Those who do not live by the sword, can still die upon it" | ||
| Hex |
Siddhartha Gautama Buddha didn't fight. (Message edited by hex on March 02, 2010) | ||
| Hex |
Decent/dissent Mondegreen unintentional. |
