| Author | Message | ||
     Reindog |
Reid, Pelosi, and Obama literally make me sick when I watch them. They are squandering a real opportunity for real health care reform. Their goal, first and foremost, is to make the government more powerful and to control every aspect of your life. They could care less about the citizens as evidenced by their arrogance ignoring the will of the overwhelming majority of people who want nothing to do with the current bills in Congress. Their bill comes due in November when we kick these wonderful people out of office. If this monstrosity is passed through reconciliation, then it will be held up in the courts until a new Congress can repeal it. Do the minority of Badwebbers who support this nonsense really think the government can do a better job controlling health care? Really? I mean, really? I am in my thirteenth month of unemployment and have qualified for a second extension of UI. I have not received a check in five weeks and it is impossible to contact the government. The phone ALWAYS gets disconnected and emails go unanswered. Do you think the government is going to be timely and treat you with respect when your life might be dependent on their health care? Really? | ||
| Blake |
Great idea offered by Max Baucus, Dem Senator from Montana: Require hospitals to post their fees for all common services and procedures. He affirmed what I've said, that the fees vary widely from hospital to hospital. So see John, while your "femur bone" is your "femur bone", the cost to treat you if you break it is not the same everywhere, not even for the same level of treatment. The free market works. The posting of fees is an excellent idea! | ||
| Blake |
"I'm not a fool who believes blindly. I've got to see the data." John, I submit that you are and that you've proved so here in this very thread. You willfully ignore, blind yourself to, the facts that tend to refute your Socialist ideology. The perfect example is your willingness to ignore the negative consequences of cheaper, socialized medical care. Again,
Instead of recognizing the very real and very serious detrimental effects of socialized health care, and instead of recognizing the very real and very exceptional effects of America's free market health care system, you try to mislead and run down America, claiming that our health care is "mediocre at best." You are indeed a fool who believes blindly, one who grasps at straws, any straw no matter the integrity of its source as long as it supports your ideological agenda. You are not honest in any political oriented debate that I've ever seen. You make bogus, illogical, emotion based arguments based on half-truths and nonsense. You willfully choose to ignore the whole truth.  This will blow your mind. The fact is that right now in America the government is controlling 60% of our health care expenses versus only 40% attributable to the private sector. That's a ratio of 3:2 government over private free-market. How's that working out for us? Get rid of all the unproductive federal government meddling in health care and costs will plummet. Fraud in the gov run portion runs at around 20% of the total cost. Fraud in the private sector runs at around 1% of the total cost. What kind if idiot would propose turning the rest of the system over to the one rife with fraud? Fix the fraud first in the gov run system first, then come talk to me about a sweeping change allowing the gov to grab even more control of the system. Look to the closest successful models that we can find. Look to the medical industry that is thriving, growing, improving care and reducing costs. Look to the portions of the health care industry providing elective services. Look to the dental health care. The free market if let alone to work as it should will free America from inflated health care costs. Get the government out of it! At a minimum, if we must provide assistance for those who cannot look after themselves, then just give them the money to do so themselves. Get rid of the fed gov bureaucracies! For goodness sake, do NOT create yet more big brother government bureaucracy! Doing so is the definition of insanity, doing the same but expecting a different result. (Message edited by blake on February 26, 2010) | ||
| Blake |
Another interesting fact I heard on a PBS documentary about the different national health care systems around the world. In the Socialized health care system in Germany, their system was going broke. To address the financial problem the German government dictates the pay of doctors. Doctors working in hospitals in Germany are now paid an average of $80K. The rate of people looking to be doctors in Germany has plummeted. Care is suffering. The doctors still working in hospitals are now horribly over-worked to dangerous levels. But hey, their socialized health care costs less than ours! Let's follow their lead so we can decimate our health care system too. Doctors suck! They should only be paid $80K. | ||
| Blake |
" Just one more example of how idiotic Washington DC has become" Jeff, my experience is much the same. I've always held to more conservative views and lately leaning more Libertarian principles, but I didn't take sides wrt party until observing the behavior and speeches of representatives in the two parties which mirrors your own experience. I think it comes down to right-brained emotion-governed view of the world versus a left-brained analytical/logical view. Funny how the left-brained are on the right and in the right while the right-brained are on the left. LOL. I will say that there are some Dems, a number of them actually that are palatable to me. The Dem party has been hijacked by the far-left "Progressives/Socialists". It's a real shame. They know they'd never stand a chance if they had the integrity to form their own party and actually tell folks what they really want. I think youtube is one of the great boons to the ongoing fight for freedom in America. It exposes the statements and true beliefs and agenda of the "Progressives" when they gather amongst themselves thinking that no one else will learn what they say. (Message edited by blake on February 25, 2010) | ||
| Blake |
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| Blake |
This one, if widely publicized, would do much good. | ||
| Moxnix |
Obamarx. Don't know it that monicker is original, but kinda' catchy. | ||
| Hootowl |
Why in the hell are the President, Vice President and the Speaker of the House all in the same room together along with a goodly number of members of Congress? Isn't the VP supposed to be in a secret bunker when there are these types of gatherings? | ||
| Hootowl |
"I've always held to more conservative views and lately leaning more Libertarian principles" "I became a Conservative by hanging around with Liberals. I became a Libertarian by hanging around with Conservatives." -- Greg Gutfeld | ||
| Conchop |
There is still no answer from the "just say no" GOP to the health care issue. As the tea baggers do everything they can to return the USA to the gilded age, the problems only get compounded. If the right wing had their way, we wouldn't have the social programs we have now and a lot of you wouldn't be here. The TV preachers on FOX NEWS would have you believe that any form of Democratic health care from the Obama administration would be the end of the USA. Seeds of doubt, truths twisted into lies, these guys are pro's. There could be answers to these issues if there were a real desire to find them. I'm of the opinion the GOP is saying "NO" to everything as they try to repeat the NEWTSIE GOP takeover in 94. In the meantime, a lot of good people [ not thugs ] fall through the safety nets while the GOP fiddles on Nero's Harp. The reality of the right wing movement is they want to remove all aspects of FDR's New Deal and LBJ's Great Society. They won't admit any of this, but an objective look into what's really going on proves the point. The performance of the Bush Administration shows how badly the GOP can screw up government because they don't want the government to compete with their benefactors and contributors. We'll be lucky if we can repair the right wing GOP damage within the next 25 years. I feel so sorry for my Republican friends and family; to be represented by such a lazy and shiftless GOP leadership is embarrassing as most of us work really hard. I am quite sure an enlightened society won't stand for a return to the gilded age. Health care at that time consisted of medicinal plants and laying in the bed until you got better or died. If you could afford a Doctor, perhaps your chances were better, but most Americans at that time were of humble means. In the meantime, the French are in 1st place. We are 37th. Oh the shame of it all! Allowing the French that kind of lead! "Remember to just say no!" And make sure that the American flag that you drape yourself in wasn't made in Viet Nam! Your tea bags are probably VC!  | ||
| Hootowl |
"There is still no answer from the "just say no" GOP to the health care issue." Their answer came more than six months ago. If you won't listen to the answer, stop asking the question. | ||
| Hootowl |
The "newtsie" congress passed four consecutive balanced budgets and Clinton signed them. They had to shut the government down (no spending bills passed to fund government programs except the military) before they got enough Democrats to go along with their sensible budgets. We need the "newtsie" congress back. | ||
| Hootowl |
"they want to remove all aspects of FDR's New Deal and LBJ's Great Society. They won't admit any of this, but an objective look into what's really going on proves the point" Those goals are freely admitted in conservative circles, and no one is ashamed of it. Unlike progressives who say one thing on national TV and another in closed door meetings. If the average person knew the progressive agenda, there would be none in government. | ||
| Spike |
Dude: http://tinyurl.com/yl6vp3m The answers are out there. Stop believing everything you hear on the news. If you insist on ignoring everything the other side has to say, how do you expect to hold a productive discussion? Obama and the democrats are the ones currently "just say no" to everything the GOP proposes, then they hold press conferences saying the GOP has nothing to say. (Message edited by spike on February 25, 2010) | ||
| Reindog |
Conchop, Your emotional rants are obtuse and not factual. We Republicans desire meaningful health care reform that retains a viable free market approach. The Democratic plan leads to ineffective government control that will ultimately lead to bankruptcy. Republicans and most Independents (as well as some Democrats) believe in most or all of the following tenets. * Competition across state lines. * Meaningful tort reform. * More power to RNs so economical health care clinics can be established in places like shopping malls and Wallmart. These can provide the first line of defense for providing health care and enables MDs to attend to serious health problems. * Portability of health care plans. * Government aid to the truly indigent. * No health care to illegal aliens. Why would anyone disagree with this? You like to be emotional but you have failed to explain what you believe in and how that will be a viable system. Calling us "teabaggers" and hurling other epithets will not advance your argument. Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security are all going towards bankruptcy. Why would we entertain for one second adding yet another ineffective program? | ||
| Blake |
Hateful divisive posts will be removed. Insult folks using vile characterizations like "teabaggers", expect your post to be disappeared. If you cannot debate thoughtfully, in a mature fashion, at least semi-respectfully, take your leave of this forum. | ||
| Blake |
"The reality of the right wing movement is they want to remove all aspects of FDR's New Deal and LBJ's Great Society. They won't admit any of this" Baloney! I'll admit it! I'm not sure about "all aspects" as I'm not well versed enough to know all aspects. I'd certainly kill Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid in their current forms. Most of LBJ's "Great Society" has been a complete and utter failure, a total waste of $20,000,000,000,000 (today's dollars). That's $20TRILLION. In fact, the misguided, bleeding-heart, emotionally governed, give the poor people free stuff programs made the plight of the below average much much worse. Instead of less poverty, less drug use, less teen pregnancy, less high school dropouts, we got more of all the above. FAIL! Why would we want to repeal that?  I think much of it, thankfully, has been repealed. How idiotic is it to propose implementing huge new taxes to support a massive takeover of the American health care system, while delaying implementation of the benefits for as much as eight years? Then claim that over a ten year period the program actually decreases the deficit? That is outrageous! How about the next ten years that won't have four to eight year head start in tax funding? The deficit will skyrocket! If you went to the store and paid your money for the goods you wanted, but the cashier took the goods and told you that you should come back in eight years to fetch what you paid for, how do you imagine that would go over? If you sent your auto insurance payment every month or quarter, but the insurance benefits didn't become active until years later, would you find that troubling? Well, that is what the idiots in congress are trying to sell to America, that we should pony up massive new taxes but not see the benefits implemented for years. Then they claim that the plan reduces the deficit. What? How can you possibly believe that? What kind of idiot would believe that we can massively expand public health care and at the same time reduce the deficit? This crap will makes slaves of productive Americans all in order to provide health care for those who cannot afford it. That should be the job of other than the Federal government. It should be the job of State, County, local, church, community, friends, neighbors, family. | ||
| Reindog |
The truth is that most Americans are satisfied with their current health plan. I am on an HMO and it is surprisingly responsive, affirmative, and economical to my health care needs. Health care really does need reform for many but the government says pretty words but their intention is power over the individual. Our Founding Fathers were keenly aware of human nature and would Quentin Tarentino our current Congress if they were alive today. If any congressman says that the health care bill can not restart from scratch, then that person is not electable. I am finally proud of the Republicans since Obama started his Socialist tack. They will probably screw up again once they are back in power but hopefully we have relearned our Conservative roots. The RINOs need to be cast from power along with the lunatic Leftist fringe of the Democratic party. America needs to return to right of center. | ||
| Conchop |
Oh I don't think I'm emotional at all. Being ribbed as a socialist or a teabagger or whatever lends itself to the proceedings. It is the heat in the kitchen. From what little I've seen here, most of you people would rather fuss than actually get anything accomplished. Just like the " just say no" contingent in the GOP. The truth is, I feel sorry for my real Republican friends and family. The "just say no philosophy" adopted by the real Republican leadership tends to make real Republicans appear shiftless and lazy. While the country is facing some of the most serious issues ever faced and brought about by this so called free market economy and deregulation, I find it ironic that the Republican party wants to play by the failed policies it still supports to this day. What is really ironic is that people still want the failed systems. The teabaggers want control of the GOP. A libertarian wonderland is right around the corner. Then WHAT???? IMHO, the split that is forming between the teabaggers and the real Republicans [ ones who are willing to actually work ] is seen here. Face it - none of us are experts in the field of health care reform. Yet we all have our points of view. IMHO, the far right will return us to the 1890's. They cannot stand their loss of power to a liberal leaning Hawaiian. It is obvious they want it all back. Too bad, they're not going to get it. They messed it up so badly during the Bush administration. The country does not want the right wing back in power. You may score some seats, but you won't get it back. Your GOP performance numbers are dreadful. By the numbers, the current capitalistic system of health care is failing so many people and the financial ruin that is heaped on those who can least afford it and the USA in general, is real. This would not be on the radar screen if the system was so good. It is not good for our society. I would like to think we have better things to be doing. Therefore, other systems, including a single payer plan merits examination. A real academic approach, not the ideological smear campaigns of the the right or left. You talk about the the SS, medicare , medicaid going broke when the reality of the situation is the USA is technically bankrupt. We went from having a surplus to a monstrous debt due to the mismanagement and warmongering of the GOP and the Bush Administration. Now we have a debt crisis compounding all other issues due to another right wing slogan: deregulation of the financial industry. All that our Communist Red Chinese bankers have to do is turn off the credit line. Then we're financially done for and we won't have the cheap stinky shoes. A libertarian teabagger GOP wonderland - broke and barefoot! LOLOLOL | ||
| Hootowl |
"We went from having a surplus to a monstrous debt due to the mismanagement and warmongering of the GOP and the Bush Administration" You are confusing debt with deficit. We had debt under Clinton, and only one year of a surplus (projected) that never materialized due to the dot-com bubble. Bush was a big spender. True conservatives are glad he's gone. Obama has outspent even your reviled Bush, got nothing to show for it, and is still, amazingly, loved by you and others. I do not understand that. | ||
| Conchop |
OOPS - my bust. Due to the recession excessive debt is the only remedy. Historically, it is necessary to fund the country as we get back on our feet. However, the debt incurred during the Bush years was not necessary. You do not cut taxes when your military is deployed. Lets talk about love. I want to see numbers. If we're not number one in every measure, then someone is screwing up. If I pay for a load of 2x4's, I want a load of of 2x4's and not a bunch of excuses. The numbers generated by the GOP leadership are worthy of a trip to the woodshed. If I'm an investor or an employer and I get numbers back that show us going the wrong way, someone's on the carpet for the justifiable come to Jesus meeting. I really don't give a damn who it is, I want to see results. Good progressive positive results. I can hardly believe that anyone in their right mind would be satisfied with the results we had in the last administration. We are in a deep hole due to the incompetence of the ideology of the right wing GOP. The Dem's could not seem to grow some balls at that time. Well, they have some balls now. It will take a long long time to dig our way out of the mess left by this failed right wing ideology. You people can either help or just say no. As it is, the French are #1 in healthcare [ and cuisine ] and we are not. Pitiful! Lets just hear a bunch of flag waving Americans chanting "we're number one - we're number one" again, just for old time sakes. In the meantime, lets have another dram of moonshine.  | ||
| Spike |
That's the spirit! Don't let facts and logic slow down your tirade. If someone proves you wrong, just ignore it and scream louder. We're all taking you much more seriously now that you have repeated yourself.
Bush spent way too much, you're right about that. Fortunately, Obama is here to outspend Bush exponentially. Now that the left is in power, we can finally spend our way out of all the debt the Bush alone spent us into. Makes perfect sense. | ||
| Blake |
Just took a look at the WHO's rationale and the details of their rankings data concerning their "overall health system performance" rankings. They use some interesting methods and factors. One major factor is cost. Another is the state of health of the population, already shown to be due to many other factors other than the actual health care system. Here's the funny part. In rating the "level of responsiveness" of the health care systems, that is to say how quickly and efficiently they get people the treatment that they need... you'll never guess which country rates #1. It is the United States of America. That WHO ranking looks more like one-world Socialist propaganda than an honest indicator of the quality of any health care system. Their statement following says it all:
So if someone has a thousand dollars a month in discretionary income, they shouldn't have to spend any greater percentage of that $1,000 than someone who has $100,000? Huh? So if a doctor visit costs $100 for the well to do guy with $100,000/mo, the person with $1,000/mo should only have to spend $1, one dollar? This is known as communism. From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. Or more aptly, if the doctor visit costs $100 for the person with $1,000/mo discretionary income, then the person who earns $100,000/mo should pay $10,000 for a doctor visit? Yes dear comrade. Whatever you say. (Message edited by blake on February 26, 2010) | ||
| Blake |
So it's too easy to see why communist Cuba, though ranking worse than 115th in health care responsiveness ends up 39th overall. They don't charge poor folks for the crappy health care they provide. LOL. | ||
| Hootowl |
I too do not understand why he keeps referring to a report that was thoroughly debunked as propaganda days ago. Unless he simply isn't interested in the truth. | ||
| Blake |
Good grief, it gets more ridiculous. The ratings are not based on an absolute scale, rather they are...
So for comparing the actual quality of different nation's health care systems, it is about useless. It's akin to running different bikes each on a different dyno, using different methods, with different operators and different scales and using the results to compare performance. It's nonsense. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
What is being proposed by the Democrats is essentially Section 8 Healthcare for ALL Americans. It is a ruse in order to further foster wealth redistribution. Those who support it are hoping to get something free at the cost of a "fat cat" wealthy person. | ||
| Sifo |
The place to start with a new health care plan is to have our elected officials dependent on it. If you start with that single piece I'm fairly confident that the rest of the details will get sorted out. | ||
| Nm5150 |
I think this whole debate is stupid.The jobs required of the federal government are stated pretty clearly in the Constitution and all other powers are delegated to the states or the people.Health care ain't in there.I read it every year on the 4th of July. If you don't like it feel free to move to whichever country you want to live in.I like it just fine here and I can't move to a country like the US if you change it because there is no other so please,just move to the place that has the system you like and let me enjoy the FREE market system we have here. This sounds simplistic but that is what all those dead white guys had in mind.KISS(keep it simple stupid) |
