| Author | Message | ||
     Danger_dave |
When did Erik first start espousing Mass Centralization as a concept? Honda VFR dribble: _____________ It is a shame that the first internet reportage that came my way on the release of the Honda VFR1200 was by an Editor who vented a minor diatribe at the ostentatious claims published in its Press Release – rather than concentrating on the merits of the machine. I think it has tainted some people’s expectations of the bike; which is entirely unjust. Not long after reading that snippet Mike Esdaile forwarded me some quotes from the VFR online forums where there has also been some ire vented about ‘maintaining the heritage of the VFR marque.’ So when I picked up the Press Bike from Local Distributor Blue Wing Honda I was delighted to discover it’s a simply stunning machine. If we were true to VFR report form I should open with how miserable my first recollections of riding a VFR were. Late 80’s and I had a desk that looked directly across the road to the local Honda Dealer. Parked out the front was a used Black and White VFR1000 that looked like a bit of me – so one lunchtime I wandered across the road for a test ride. One of the worst experiences I’ve had on a bike. It had a tendency to death wobble in various circumstances – including ‘going’ and ‘stopping’. When I got back and asked ‘what the???’ It was attributed to the 16” front wheel. I didn’t know any better then, but it probably only had 10lbs in each tyre. It was enough to taint my opinion of the Viffer for a long time. So here’s the contrast – the new one really knocked my socks off. This is a highly desirable sports-tourer with the emphasis on Sports, or it makes a very tidy sports bike for an average sized couple. I thought I’d have a wade through the contentious Press release after three very enjoyable days in the saddle. It certainly does put the hype in hyperbole. Engine. Honda claims that ‘The VFR1200F engine was designed to provide its rider with high speed, quick acceleration and a strong, engaging feeling coming from the engine’s power characteristics. Honda also wanted to deliver the invigorating engine sound and feel that characterise the V4 sports bikes, but with an additional focus on comfortable, responsive power delivery.’ I think they nailed all that except the engaging engine sound. It’s not at all unpleasant sounding, but ‘engaging’? No. It definitely has two exhaust note stages. I would describe them as 'Get ready to go' and 'Hang the hell on'. They also describe the muffler as ‘handsome’. I thought it was OK – but Handsome? The engine itself is a Honda tech marvel. ‘It features UNICAM single overhead camshaft cylinder head design from the CRF motocrossers’. Honda claims ‘The logic was straightforward: in an environment where space, performance and weight are at a premium this technology was perfect for a project where mass centralisation and ergonomics were prime design criteria.’ I hope Erik Buell has a very wide grin when he reads that statement. He stated touting Mass Centralisation quite some years ago and made bikes that are widely regarded as the best cornering. The VFR is certainly a tidy handler as well. Also borrowed from the CRF range and the RC211V is the sealed crankcase system. The 1297cc liquid cooled 76 degree V-4 doesn't have the same 'BAM!!!' as a large vee twin at 60kph, but top gear or spooled up roll-ons are a torquer's delight, particularly in touring mode. Opening the throttle in a top gear overtaking maneuver is simply beautiful. The dual clutch system is very nice too; it offers one finger operation and good feel. Same for the linked ABS brakes. One finger on either lever is all it ‘needs’. The gearbox is also sweet shifting although the test bike did occasionally get a bit cantankerous selecting 3-2-1 down to a halt – but it only had 130km on it when we picked it up and will no doubt be better when run in. Honda claims the shaft drive is also a breakthrough unit, I thought it worked quite nicely without feeling different to most modern units. It still gets that shaft drive ‘on-off-on-off’ when rolling through a 10kph roundabout, but apart from that it’s great looking heavy engineering and not noticeable when riding. There’s also been quite a lot of internet ire about the styling of the bike. I really liked it, the two layer fairing system and sports screen worked really well for me, there is a larger touring screen available, along with panniers and top box and an array of Honda Touring goodies. I had three great fun days doing day rides from base, a lot of City and Freeway work and some nice Waikato back roads. The only real shortcoming I found in Honda’s stated goal of an ‘Ultimate Sports Tourer’ was the fuel range from the 18.5 litre tank. I got around 210km before the light started flashing, but it was brand new and I rode it a gear lower than it needed till I got the mojo (and because it was so nice). 250km sounds feasible, run in and riding sensibly. For NZ I find that is...satisfactory. If I lived in Wagga Wagga it would be problematic (not to mention the mileage). Apart from that. Wow. Goes, stops, looks, just like $28.5K worth should. We’ve published the Press Release in full on the KR web site – look for the VFR links on the front page. Then, if you’ve got that kind of spend, get in to your Honda dealer and test ride one. It knocked my socks off I tell ya. (Message edited by danger_dave on February 18, 2010) | ||
| Danger_dave |
Press release 2010 VFR1200 Main Customer Benefits • Touring options include factory Clip-on Panniers. • Blackbird replacement. Sportier, better, lighter, nimbler Sports Tourer. • Flexible V4 engine delivers unrivalled response and strong torque delivery. • New Layered Fairing Technology allows cooler, more comfortable ride and improves bike aerodynamics. • Slipper clutch to prevent rear wheel locking under downshifting, allowing the rider to stay firmly in control - sports ride feature. • Powerful new six-piston callipers for the front brake and two piston callipers for the rear unit and combined ABS. • New shaft drive design further enhances engine responsiveness and longevity. New Formula: V4 + (50% x CBR1100XX) + (50% x CBR1000RR) = VFR1200F Background Honda and V4 – building a legend It has been over three decades since we marked our return to Grand Prix competition by developing the first Honda engine with a V4 four-stroke configuration. In the intervening time the V4 formula has been tempered in the fires of competition and honed for more power and better delivery. The NR500, RC30, RVF400, NR750, RC45, VFR750 and RC212V are just some of the milestones that mark the V4 story. The VFR – Sport Touring Trailblazer The VFR lineage reaches back to the track-dominating RS and RVF750, but the first use of a V4 engine in a road bike was the pioneering VF750. Unveiled in 1982, it combined smooth, effortless performance with a practical, easy-maintenance design. The first VFR750 was launched in 1986 and immediately became the standard by which every all-round sports motorcycle was judged. With a restrained and sophisticated body concealing the finest technology and equipment, it was developed to be instantly ‘right’ for every rider. It was a comfortable and flexible Sport Tourer, with the emphasis placed firmly on ‘Sport’. Since then, Honda has treated the VFR as its flagship for new road-going technologies, which are often developed and tested first in the laboratory of MotoGP. The VFR800 made its debut in 1998. Based around the engine from the RC45 it stayed true to the concept of taking lessons learned on the racetrack and fine tuning them for road use. In 2002 it received an upgraded fuel injection system, revolutionary new VTEC valve control system and revised brake systems including optional ABS. Subsequent updates have revised the power delivery and upgraded the bike’s consistently contemporary styling. The racetrack is still the source and test environment for its technologies, while its all-round usability and ample smoothly delivered power have continued to lead its class. The Ultimate road-sports motorcycle The VFR1200F has been developed in keeping with previous VFRs; that have delivered a combination of sports and touring capabilities using the latest technologies. This motorcycle is however brand new: A clean-sheet interpretation of the ultimate road-sport machine – a concept driven by extensive understanding of customer needs and the adoption of state-of-the-art technologies. In pursuit of heightened levels of control and feedback, the VFR1200F adopts the latest race-track bred technologies but adapted and evolved to create a machine that can be many things to many riders. The harmonic growl of the flexible and responsive V4 motor may rekindle the emotions inspired by previous iconic VFRs, but its unique ‘heartbeat’ engine feel and an unrivalled level of manageability sets the new VFR apart, not only from its forbears - but also from every bike currently available. Development concept A truly International design team included three Japanese members, one American and one European. Guided by the infinitely experienced Kishi-san (CBR1100XX Blackbird) and overseen by Hasegawa-san, the VFR1200F’s design team was not only culturally varied but also spanned generations. Their collective goal was to create a sports bike with long distance capabilities. To foster the right mindset the designers imagined waking up to a perfect day and deciding, impulsively, to ride 300km, effortlessly devouring large stretches of highway before carving through twisty roads, just to enjoy lunch in a beautiful location before riding home again. The VFR1200F designers began sketching their ideas in a remote hotel outside Rome. These sketches took many forms and explored every possibility and rather than refine these elements into one final design, the team headed back to Tokyo with all their individual drawings. On the VFR1200F project, designers and engineers worked in parallel, discussing and perfecting their solutions as the clay model and sketches evolved. European designer, Teofilo Plaza, described this six month-long experience as one of the most intense and passionate of his life. Once the basic design had been agreed, another many months of testing and development lay ahead – a period in which designers and engineers continued to work in unison. The first V4 Concept model was unveiled to a stunned audience at the Intermot show in October 2008. The radically styled show bike perfectly displayed the free-thinking that had absorbed the design team from day one of this revolutionary project. Now, twelve months later, the VFR1200F is ready for launch and whilst its V4 heritage may be patently obvious, the reality is that this machine far surpasses anything that has gone before. Styling The designers were clear about one subtle but important aspect of their task. This was not to be a Japanese motorcycle designed as Europeans would do it. It was to be a Japanese bike designed in Europe, with two threads of Japanese culture running through the design process. The Japanese word ‘Ma’ has many meanings and no direct translation but in essence it can be described as ‘the space between things’. By focusing on the space around an object we can gain a new perspective on the overall form. The visible connects to the invisible and gives it shape. It is perhaps easiest to understand it in relation to music. If one thinks of the intrinsic importance of a measure of silence or the pause between movements in a classical symphony and the effect it has on the performance overall if someone accidentally applauds or disturbs that silence. That illustrates the importance of ‘Ma’. Like Ma, ‘Tsuya’ is not a physical property. Rather, it describes the desireone can have for an object, its charm, the way it attracts and holds the eye. Focusing on 'Tsuya' brings a form to life, giving a new significance to every line, curve and angle. To a larger degree, pure function determined the VFR1200F’s form. Mass centralisation, consummate rider control and aerodynamic efficiency provided the key underlying design criteria and from this starting point the machine’s form evolved. The remarkably narrow cylinder heads and clever cylinder spacing allowed a very narrow waist, effectively lowering the seat height thus making it easier for the rider to place both feet flat on the ground at rest. This wasp-like waist also gives the rider the feeling of being ‘in’ the bike rather than perched on top – crucial for feedback and control. The fuel tank’s elegant yet complicated contours have purpose as well as eye pleasing aesthetics in mind. Its shape and form supports and assists the rider to add extra elements of control and heightened levels of feedback whatever the riding situation. The ergonomically styled fairing works in harmony with the fuel tank to provide extra support and efficient weather protection for the rider and pillion. Even the hand controls and switchgear with their revised button positioning are engineered to ergonomic advantage. The pillion’s comfort and security have not been overlooked, either. The supportive, vacuum-moulded dual-seat has a flat and expansive area for the pillion and strong, easy reach grab handles and footrests positioned with comfort and security in mind. Layered Fairing technology The patented layered fairing design of the VFR1200F is a perfect match of form and function. Designers and engineers worked together to create a uniquely beautiful shape and, at the same time, optimal air flow and heat management. The fairing design incorporates two layers, which harnesses the benefits of flowing air to the machine’s dynamic and mechanical advantage. This has two functions; air entering between the layers and through two oval-shaped spaces in the front of the fairing is channelled in exactly the directions needed to enhance the bike’s stability at higher speeds. By effectively increasing the speed of the air by channelling it through smaller apertures before it reaches the radiators, engine cooling is optimised and the hot, exhausted air is channelled away from the rider and passenger for a cooler, more comfortable ride. The heat generated by the powerful, enclosed V4 engine is also channelled away to keep hot air away from the rider. A balance of positive and negative surfaces gives the front of the motorcycle a light, open look while also creating a profile that slices through the wind with the least possible resistance. A strongly defined Xshape characterises the front of the machine. Concave surfaces direct the eye and air up towards the windscreen, which incorporates another air directing aperture at its lower edge. Even the edges of the screen have been crafted to enhance stability at speed. The powerful single line-beam headlight is the same type used on the CBR1000RR Fireblade. Its light streams into two tinted LED-look strips that frame the sides of the headlight, increasing the illusion of lightness and space. A high attention to detail and quality is evident everywhere, and every design element has been fine tuned in tandem with engineering requirements. The cowl and body are fused together, creating one smooth, unified, aerodynamic surface. The rear design is compact and tapers upwards, emphasising the bike’s lightness and dynamic shape. The tail-light and rear indicators subtly mimic the frontal design. Colours New painting technologies, specially developed at the hi-tech Kumamoto factory, have focused on creating top-quality colouring with the most uniform coverage. A deep clear-coat finish enhances the bodywork colour, creating a luxurious, high-class shine far above normal production standards. The mirror-like surfaces create a sharp, memorable profile that attracts attention even from a distance. Two colour options were selected to emphasise the highly-polished look, smooth texture and unique shapes and layers of the bodywork. In 2010 the VFR1200F will make its debut in: • Candy Prominence Red • Seal Silver Metallic Engine The VFR1200F engine was designed to provide its rider with high speed, quick acceleration and a strong, engaging feeling coming from the engine’s power characteristics. Honda also wanted to deliver the invigorating engine sound and feel that characterise the V4 sports bikes, but with an additional focus on comfortable, responsive power delivery. The new V4 engine’s performance is delivered where it’s most useful and most enjoyable. Its linear torque curve is focused in the low and mid range, making it possible for the rider to simply roll on and off the throttle while powering through bends. This effortless control makes the bike great fun to ride – this is a sports bike with real-world usable power. Smooth delivery There were several challenges involved in tailoring the strong V4 power for use in an all-round machine that can be used for weekend enjoyment, commuting and long-distance touring. Key elements of the VFR1200F’s power characteristics are its unrivalled response and strong torque delivery. To allow full enjoyment of the engine’s power while still providing a high level of comfort, vibration needed to be carefully managed. A unique cylinder layout was developed for this purpose. Instead of the traditional V4 cylinder configuration, with the cylinders evenly spaced front-to-rear, the VFR1200F adopts an ingenious solution in order to centralise mass and at the same time achieve a compact, space-saving solution. The rear cylinders are placed side by side but close together, while the front cylinders are more widely spaced. This layout allows for a slim, compact ‘waist’ that fits comfortably between the rider’s legs. It also supports mass centralisation, thus contributing to the bike’s balanced feel and ease of control. With no right-left couple imbalance, the need for a balancer is eliminated and friction is reduced. A new Phase-shift Crankshaft complements the advantages of the cylinder layout. Operating with a 28° throw, it effectively reduces primary vibration and noise, eliminating the need for a power-sapping balance shaft. The new V4 typically produces more than 90% of its maximum torque (129Nm/8,750 rpm) at 4,000rpm. To allow the rider to comfortably take full advantage of this torque, delivery is smoothed by four drivetrain dampers, which further eliminate uncomfortable vibration and backlash. Racing technologies The VFR1200F utilises the UNICAM single overhead camshaft cylinder head design from the world-class CRF motocrossers. The logic was straightforward: in an environment where space, performance and weight are at a premium this technology was perfect for a project where mass centralisation and ergonomics were prime design criteria. Also borrowed from the CRF range and the RC211V is the sealed crankcase system that reduces the pumping loss created through piston movement, and air density. This system has never been used on a road machine before but the gains for the rider are identical - electrifying throttle response and improved fuel consumption. New transmission layout and groundbreaking shaft drive system. A compact new transmission layout contributes to highspeed stability, better cornering and improved traction capability. The highly developed shaft drive system features an offset propeller shaft and a pivot that expands vertically as well as a sliding constant velocity joint that takes up any variations in length during the rear wheel’s arc of travel. At the output shaft a clutch damper absorbs backlash effectively. Thanks to the rigidity of the pivot, stability is improved and throttle-to-drive delivery is much more direct. Refined control A throttle-by-wire system improves the rider’s connectivity with the VFR1200F. Providing light, precise fuel metering at all engine parameters this highly developed accuracy gives the rider increased levels of control, whatever the situation. It is another individual aspect that adds to the heightened feelings of response and control. To aid control under intense deceleration a slipper clutch is fitted, similar to the system on the CBR1000RR Fireblade. Even under the most excessive downshifting the clutch is designed to slip, thus preventing the rear wheel from inadvertently locking up, allowing the rider to stay firmly in control. Unique exhaust and exhilarating sound Engineers and designers alike focused not only on the new engine’s power and delivery, but also on its feel and sound. They chose a configuration which would emulate the briskness of a typical inline-4 engine’s performance but deliver this with the beat and feel that are pure V4. The exhaust layout was made as compact as possible with the assembly of catalyser containing exhaust pipes placed on one side of the sump and the exhaust pipes of the rear cylinder bank placed on the other side. On the bike’s right flank a handsome triangular-shaped muffler highlights the styling lines of the bodywork. The combined induction and exhaust notes create a raw, compelling sound that is authentic Honda V4 and distinguishes the VFR1200F from any other motorcycle. At idle it pulses smoothly, hinting at the engine’s huge performance potential. Each twist of the throttle releases a burst of instant V4 aggression that becomes a thrilling howl as it rises quickly through the revs. The sound and beat of this engine contribute to the unique character of this new sports bike and are as essential to the design as the bodywork or riding position. A key element in the raw emotion of this V4’s sound is the exhaust system. Engineered to provide excellent cornering clearance and minimal intrusion to the rider’s and pillion’s feet, the high-volume, twin outlet high chrome muffler produces an unobtrusive but fantastically stirring note. At low revs the noise is offbeat and bass-rich. Further up the rev range, once the servo-operated valve is opened, the noise changes to a truly inspiring, hard-edged V4 howl to stir the emotions. Chassis The VFR1200F frame, suspension and drive components are brought together in a unique configuration that facilitates both sports bike power and smooth stability. Its strong aluminium twin-spar diamond configuration frame is both lightweight and rigid. The swingarm and driveshaft length are optimised without extending the overall length of the motorcycle. The long swingarm contributes to balanced, confident manoeuvring and exceptional highspeed stability. The swingarm is complemented by a compliant Pro- Link rear shock absorber with adjustable rebound damping. At the front, sturdy 43mm telescopic forks with adjustable preload provide smooth and assured control. Together, these systems ensure a comfortable ride, even with a pillion and luggage on board, and add to the overall feeling of total control. High-performance brakes The VFR1200F is equipped with the most highly developed brake technology for all-round sports bike use. Powerful new six-piston callipers for the front and two piston callipers for the rear act on large discs (320mm at the front and 276mm at the rear). A Combined Braking System creates the optimal balance of front and rear braking forces. The addition of a standard-fit compact and lightweight ABS supports both the motorcycle’s sports riding potential and its touring proficiency. Standard equipment Instrument panel The VFR1200F instrument panel combines sophisticated styling and practicality. Shielded and at the same time displayed by the tilt of the aerodynamic windscreen, its elegant design fully complements the airy and spacious feel at the front. It also adds to the sensation of total rider control. A large, sporty analogue rev counter and a digital speedometer are surrounded by LCD readouts of the fuel, coolant temperature levels and fuel consumption. The display also includes a clock, ambient temperature display, HISS indicator and ABS indicator. Pannier mounts To enhance the touring potential of the new sports bike, the rear is equipped with integrated luggage mounts. These mounting points are unobtrusively cast into the injection moulded under-seat area and pillion footrest mounts. They allow easy installation and removal of specially designed optional panniers without interrupting the motorcycle’s clean styling. Ergonomic hand controls The VFR1200F is the first motorcycle to feature state-of-the-art ergonomic revisions to the handlebar and switch layout. The designers looked at the time required to reach controls comfortably and the ease of operation, particularly considering the hand position during cornering. As a result, the VFR1200F has new handlebar switches and a new layout with reversed horn and indicator controls. The indicator switch shape is designed around natural thumb movement for effortless operation. Optional equipment A wide range of optional equipment has been developed by Honda Genuine Accessories specifically for the VFR1200F. These accessories were designed in line with the new all-round sports bike concept and in every detail, from the choice of materials to integration with the bike’s contours, they complement its styling and performance. They include: • A 35-litre pannier kit that fits the bike’s integral pannier attachments with no need for any additional conventional pannier stays. Operated with the motorcycle key, the panniers are aerodynamically shaped and coloured to match the motorcycle’s bodywork. The left pannier can hold one full-face helmet. • A sleekly designed 31-litre top box featuring a locking, quick-detach mounting system and a lid that matches the motorcycle’s bodywork. The top box can hold a full-face helmet as well as other luggage. • Tough nylon inner bags for the top box and panniers. Light grey with a Honda Wing logo, they come with carrying straps and handles. As an extra convenience feature, the pannier inner bags can be zipped together for easy carrying. • A 13-litre tank bag with a preset for easy installation. • A luxurious Alcantara seat for extra comfort. • A sporty 3-position adjustable add-on screen that integrates perfectly with the standard windscreen to extend wind protection for taller riders. • A replacement lower seat with a narrow profile which provides easier reach to the ground for shorter riders while maintaining the bike’s carefully designed ergonomics. • A pair of slim heated grips with an integrated controller for maximum comfort and compact design integration. • A motorcycle navigation kit with a unique controller that allows operation without removing hands from the handlebars. An earphone and car kit are included and Honda dealers are included in the POI list. | ||
| Oddball |
Not sure it's getting a warm a reception amongst the VFR loyal. Read on one forum how MCN was going to hand over their test bike(s) to VFR owners and get their opinions. Honda or Honda UK told them only MCN's reviewers were allowed, not the public, so they told them to take their bike(s) back. Honda has had things in common with Buell features. Side mount radiators and tuned flex chassis on my superhawk look similar if not Erik's designs. Now they and others are tucking the exhaust more and more under the engine while enlarging the airboxes and moving the fuel tanks low and back under the seat. Very close to the chassis positioning of fuel in the XB. | ||
| Danger_dave |
>>Honda or Honda UK told them only MCN's reviewers were allowed, << I approve. | ||
| Oddball |
They may have some insurance reason but it certainly looks bad to the faithful as to Honda's confidence in impressing them. | ||
| Danger_dave |
I can see the headlines: Dedicated user groups revealed as hotbed of open-mindedness. | ||
| Davegess |
Nobody is turning over test bikes to the public. Lots of good reasons and liability is near the top of the list. Erik has been on the mass centralization bandwagon from the beginning. One of the very first. | ||
| Court |
Erik was securing patents, based on the mass centralization concept in the early/mid 1980's. It was 1987 (the year after he sketched up what would become the 1125R) before he built a bike incorporating obvious elements of the ideas. I'd have to look to find the first mention of "mass centralization" in literature. To Erik was was simple, sound, functional engineering. Harley-Davidson made it a slogan. For the best example of a lot of Erik's ideas see the Honda NAS. The embodiment of what they would have built if they'd thought of it first. | ||
| Svh |
Had to Google that Honda NAS. Very cool bike. I do see the Buell mix in it. | ||
| Oddball |
I wanted that bike bad when I saw it years ago. Too bad they never decided to produce it as their halo bike. | ||
| Court |
>>>Had to Google that Honda NAS. I've got tons of detailed photos I took. Honda was kinda enough to invite me to a party when they displayed it. They could never produce it without loosing their shirt in lawsuits . . . .on the upside . . Erik would have been long retired.  | ||
| Court |
HERE are some of the photos I posted. Enjoy. | ||
| Danger_dave |
>>Erik would have been long retired. << I'm sorry - please inform him that this does not suit my agenda. | ||
| Danger_dave |
I am 2-3 years off a new motorcycle. ya know. | ||
| Pkforbes87 |
Court - a question. Those pics of the Honda NAS were posted by you on 27JUL03. At that time, had the Buell XB line been released or seen by the public? In other words, had the motorcycling world yet been exposed to perimeter front brakes? This may be a stupid question, but I seem to remember something about the 2003 model year being released late. Unfortunately, I was too busy finishing high school at the time to follow Buell (Message edited by pkforbes87 on February 19, 2010) | ||
| Oddball |
Oh god, I graduated high school when you were born. Where did the time go? An XB9R review from May'02 http://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/buell/2002- buell-xb9r-14022.html Odd, it starts the article with "Torrence, California, May 15, 2002" But faintly under the Title it says "By Motorcyle Online Staff, November 15, 2001" (Message edited by Oddball on February 19, 2010) | ||
| Davegess |
The key thing to remember about the ZTL brake is that it is not the perimeter brake that was the breakthrough, others had put them on race bikes and a few custom applications BUT the realization that with the braking force being transmitted directly to the rim you could reduce the wheel weight dramatically. The patents apply to the actual mounting system and its effect on the transferring of these forces not the general location of the rotor. | ||
| Blake |
And also achieving a reliable floating rotor design. | ||
| Ratbuell |
Erik would have been long retired Um, Court? uh....you've *met* Erik, right? I mean, I don't know the guy very well at all...but from what I have seen, he doesn't exactly strike me as the "retirement" type That NAS is pretty slick. I like the dual-caliper front end...but I wonder, are a pair of 4 piston grabbers lighter than a single six (or eight)? And would it be worth the complexity just for heat dissipation? Nice look, though. | ||
| Ulynut |
Thats the coolest looking Honda I've ever seen. |
