| Author | Message | ||
     Blake |
Good to know you intend no offense. I'm confused though. Would you please then explain your intended meaning of your contention that "Religion is injected in your mind, as other thoughts and ideas from your life experiences." And yes, you claimed that "As an example, some in this and the Harley Davidson Communities believe Buell and Harley Davidson as the only worthy motorcycle available". You won't name three, but let's run with your assertion. What percentage of H-D and Buell riders do you contend hold to your characterization? A very small percentage I'd hope. Okay then, I accept your analogy if applied accordingly. A small percentage of believers are uncritical followers of their faith. Claiming assertions as personal belief in no way exempts them from scrutiny and if deserved, resolute rebuttal. Inaccuracy and false logic whether from personal belief or not deserve exposure. Ramon, Religious ideology has proven to be equally capable of atrocity and horror as the pre-Christian Roman empire, the Huns, the Ottomans, the Stalinists, the Maoists, the Nazis, and Communists. 1. Religious ideology doesn't torture, rape, murder, or wage genocide. Men do. 2. The scale of attrocities due to men espousing religion as justification pales as virtually nil in comparison to that of communism and tyrants. Yes, even the number of victims of islamism pales in comparison. Mao alone starved over 100,000,000 of his own people. Please don't buy in to the anti-religious propaganda. What has destroyed your faith? Technocrats assaults against the Bible? I'm saddened to hear that you found faith. a burden. That's the opposite of what the Christian faith should be. If indeed it was burdensome for you, then other malevolent factions were at work. What of Jesus Christ did you find so burdensome as to compel you to reject and renounce him? | ||
| Blackm2 |
I'm not a religious person. This is one thing I don't like to discuss, this and politics. However reading this thread over the last few days I agree with Ramon, this thread is going nowhere, as religious threads tend to do. And Blake, it sure sounds like you are religious. | ||
| Liquorwhere |
Religious ideology doesn't torture, rape, murder, or wage genocide. Men do. Yes to a point men and women do the killing, the torture and the raping, but there are still and have been throughout history atrocity after atrocity justified by men and women that it was the will of God. That you cannot dispute, because it is the truth, from the Crusades, to Jim Jones in Guyana. Blake, I believe that religion and that doesn't mean christianity, religion in general is the underlying glue that makes civilization happen. Were it not for religion then little communities would not have sprouted as they did and held together as they did leading to cities, empires and amazing works of art, architecture, philosophy, mathematics, everything we know today we really do owe in some way shape or form to religion. On the other hand, the guilt, shame, pain and suffering of many people on this planet can also be attributed to that very same thing, I don't just mean christianity, I mean all religion. It is the give and take of the world. Further I would like to point out that what Tbenson wrote by in large part was correct, injected into your brain through experience and environment. Someone as steadfast and zealous and relentless as you are Blake, so resolute in your beliefs...it is truly admirable, ever wonder if that same personality had been brought up in Syria or Saudi Arabia if you might have been the very personification of what you have railed against in the past? That is not an insult Blake, just an observation about how where you are raised and what the environment is coupled with the personality of the person can create all manner of sins......or miracles, depending on how you look at it. | ||
| Blake |
"there are still and have been throughout history atrocity after atrocity justified by men and women that it was the will of God." No argument there. My argument is against the lie that it constitutes anything close to the majority of such atrocity in the world. The truth is that even with jihadist islamism thrown in, it is a minority. As I said before, I went from non-believer to believer on my own late in life, so your question about the effect of origins and environment seem to have been answered. I know people who were raised in islam who under penalty of death, left and of their own volition became Christian believers. Those who seek truth and have the courage to find it are able to escape the effect of cultural immersion to do so. | ||
| Blake |
David (BlackM2), Given the definitions: 1. Having or showing belief in and reverence for God or a deity. I am religious wrt #1, not #2. By "not religious" I was meaning to say that I am not dogmatic. I don't frequent a formal church or think much of the various church doctrine. | ||
| Jstfrfun |
Is that to say you accept that Christ's sacrifice was for you personally, or some other epiphany of your own. | ||
| Moxnix |
However reading this thread over the last few days I agree with X, this thread is going nowhere, as religious threads tend to do. Perhaps nowhere is exactly where this thread should go. Perhaps a communication dynamic had attention, now no longer has any. Perhaps those who know, understand; and those who do no know have made their arguments and voiced their opines. Perhaps the course of the thread has, indeed, run its course. Perhaps one side is experiencing an illusion that is no longer entertaining. Perhaps attention and energy will be focused once again when those detractors are irritated by, and experience the emotional pain of, the presence of folk living for their convictions and beliefs under the big tent of Christianity. In the meantime, we know who has all the power of any Christian's relationship to God in this discourse. And we want to give it to everyone. Odd, what, that a God that an atheist says doesn't exist has the power to make the atheists gather together to deprive his followers of the right to follow. Clearly God's detractors have no use for a "live and let live" laissez faire theological environment that his Body of Christ followers do so well with. | ||
| Andymnelson |
"I think that if a church is preaching things like this, then some people need to find new churches. Here is the video from this weeks message in our church, I challenge you to watch it and learn what God's church is really about: justice, mercy, grace and compassion: Go here, and watch the "God is Just" message: http://www.eaglebrookchurch.com/pages/page.asp?pag e_id=38656" Sorry, let me try my directions again  go to the link, click into the "i've got issues" message series, the watch "but God is Just" Sorry about that! | ||
| Hex |
Let me put it another way: The speed of light is a constant. That is an inaccurate statement. The speed of light is a constant in a vacuum. That again is an inaccurate statement. The speed of light is a constant in a vacuum absent of gravitational influences. Inaccurate again. The speed of light has been observed by some humans over a very short period of investigation, on the planet Earth and it's local suroundings to be a constant in a vacuum absent gravitational influences and other yet undiscovered influences. Actually I don't even know what we are looking at when we describe light... Now you are starting to understand. | ||
| Hex |
I am reading a very interesting dialog between the Dalai Lama and the psychologist Paul Ekman titled Emotional Awareness Ekman comes off hard at first to describe Hate as a positive. He quickly changes his tune and makes the new claim that Anger is the positive emotion, hate is not. Hate is a poison. Please tell us how a hate based faith like the one first presented in this thread, God Hates Fags, is not learned and poisoning behavior. Love thy enemy. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
God does not indeed hate "fags". That doctrine IS poison fomented by a wackjob who has perverted the word of God for his own purposes. The same mindset drives white supremacist to use scripture to justify their beliefs. It is the twisting of God's instructions to suit a corrupt thought pattern of hate. The gay couple I worked with this week were very surprised to find out I was not only an Alabama fan living in TN but a Southern Baptist who wasn't foaming at the mouth anti-gay. While I do not condone their lifestyle, I do not condemn them. I seek to love them as Christ would. I hope, in the end, they have seen more of Christ and less of me or the Southern Baptist Convention. | ||
| Hootowl |
If I stood outside with a sign that read "God hates unicorns" would that make it true? Actually, it is true. The magical unicorn, much like the Babel Fish, proved the existence of God, thereby undermining faith. The unicorn didn't survive the flood. | ||
| Hex |
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hunt_of_the_Unicorn Hoot, it's funny you should mention the Unicorn. IIRC from art history, the Unicorn was an allegory for the Passion of Christ. So, what is the Duck Billed Platypus?  | ||
| Aptbldr |
God made mud. God got lonesome. So God said to some of the mud, "Sit up!" "See all I've made," said God, "the hills, the sea, the sky, the stars." And I was some of the mud that got to sit up and look around. Lucky me, lucky mud. I, mud, sat up and saw what a nice job God had done. Nice going, God. Nobody but you could have done it, God! I certainly couldn't have. I feel very unimportant compared to You. The only way I can feel the least bit important is to think of all the mud that didn't even get to sit up and look around. I got so much, and most mud got so little. Thank you for the honor! Now mud lies down again and goes to sleep. What memories for mud to have! What interesting other kinds of sitting-up mud I met! I loved everything I saw! - Kurt Vonnegut, (Cat's Cradle) | ||
| B00stzx3 |
I believe I'm 99% Christian, wear a crucifix...go to church..volunteer for the needy... but.. Standing up/sitting down sucks. No one gets swallowed by a whale and survives. Snakes do not talk. And children who disobey should not be stoned to death. Polygamy is wrong. I'll take the 10 Commandments and public service... the rest of the Bible no thanks. (Message edited by b00stzx3 on January 28, 2010) | ||
| Hootowl |
Do you mean the old testament or the bible as a whole? | ||
| Hmartin |
"Standing up/sitting down sucks" - ??? "No one gets swallowed by a whale and survives. Snakes do not talk" - Not on their own. "And children who disobey should not be stoned to death" - My Bible doesn't say they should. "Polygamy is wrong" - Jesus agrees. "I'll take the 10 Commandments and public service... the rest of the Bible no thanks" - Don't just take someone's word for it about what it says, go to the source. Study the context. What does the Bible really say? | ||
| B00stzx3 |
Stand up, sit down, stand up, sit down. A billion friggin times. Why does God want my feet to hurt in those uncomfortable church shoes. As far as stoning children goes it's in Deuteronomy 21:18. Even if said child drinks too much and eats too much food (drunk munchies are aweseome). Plenty of other barbaric quotes from the bible. As far as studying goes...through 10+years of sunday school and altar boy service (Orthodox) I've read the Bible cover to cover 2 times. So much crap tied to modern religion today it disgusts me. Like the televangelists cheating on their wives or preaching about the poor while riding in their Benzes back to their oceanside mansions. Nothing against those that are truly faithful, but I'll focus on volunteer work for the needy and being there for my family, friends and coworkers before I'll go back to church. Especially mine, the one that begs for money to help the poor Greek kids in the motherland while building gold pillars out front. | ||
| Tbenson |
Blake, My before statement with the use of the word "injected" could have been reworded, or possibly used in a way as a life lesson learned or family upbringing. Example: Riding in a car on the Interstate with Grandpa as a child enjoying the day, someone rudely cuts Grandpa off, I hear "Damn Women Drivers", I look and to my surprise, it is a man, I say nothing! Later in life as a driver myself now, I still hear Grandpa "Damn Women Drivers" every time someone decides to cut me off, even though I know there are equally bad Women and Men drivers, but Grandpa told me different and I always respected and looked up to Grandpa!  I have been a Motorcycle Enthusiast, for what I think is a while, and I am sure you are too, so it is not that I will not name three, it is as simple as my three will be different from your views and subject to an endless debate! Again, life experiences with differences. No disrespect, but it is very easy to expose and ridicule a person who does not share common ground with the majority! By the way, I grew up in a very strong Religious Family, I chose a different path! Before someone points out this statement being contradictory to the first statement or the example, please read again, your own thoughts and experiences will excuse, not dismiss, the messages over time, if you let them. Troy | ||
| 86129squids |
Labeling theory. Jesus is just allright with me. My sister is a chaplain. She just received her doctorate this past May on her dissertation "Spiritual Formation and Southern Baptist Clergy" from Asbury Seminary, south of Lexington KY. We were raised Baptist, but my father was Catholic. What ever happened to the 3rd-4th century Council of Tribes? Where Judaism, Islam, and Christianity acknowledged the differences in their beliefs, but vowed to defend another from outside attack? Was it the Council of Messenes? Heck I've forgot. | ||
| Swordsman |
"Polygamy is wrong" And yet some of God's fav holy men from back in the day had more than one. Go figure. Honestly, I think polygamy is the natural state. Being with only one person for your entire life takes serious work. The desire for multiple partners is simple animal instinct, and by far the norm in this great wide world. ~SM | ||
| Jasonnennig |
You guys are ALL Nuts... My granny Loves church. She says it puts her soul at peace. So be it, more power to her I say. It's not for me though... If I want to be at peace with God, I'll be in the garage working on my Bike, AMEN... (I'd put money on it, that's the way GOD really wants it anyway) | ||
| Blake |
David (Jstfrfun), "Is that to say you accept that Christ's sacrifice was for you personally, or some other epiphany of your own." No epiphany, rather prolonged, well-considered analytical study. My own search for truth. Cliff (Swordsman), "The desire for multiple partners is simple animal instinct, and by far the norm in this great wide world. " It's not instinct for a number of animals. Wolves and many, many species of birds mate for life. Nonetheless, be careful using earthly "norms" as a guide for life. Another norm for the world is to lick your own butt every day. Jason, Working on the bike is very meditative for me as well. Anything that I enjoy and that requires extended intervals of mental focus is very peace-inducing. Troy, I understand, you meant inject more to mean expose. That is a lot more palatable. "it is not that I will not name three, it is as simple as my three will be different from your views and subject to an endless debate!" Lame cop-out. The truth is that you don't know three people who will echo the sentiments that you imagine are prevalent. I wonder if your understanding of believers is similarly flawed. | ||
| Tbenson |
Blake, Why do you say I am coping out? I have owned both HD and Buell, and can absolutely make a fair and accurate comparison with other Makes and Brands. I do not pick favorites in motorcycles, some I like, some I don't, but they all usually have good points and bad points with me. I assure you, I have many flaws, but I am usually the first to point them out! There are several people on here that do not limit themselves to the Buell and HD Only Party, and it seems to be getting more and more common each day. I truly appreciate your passion and enthusiasm for your faith, beliefs, Religion, and Motorcycles, but I think sometimes you ignore other possibilities being factual to support and defend your own thoughts and/or beliefs? I personally do not know you, as you do not know me, it just seems that way from what I have read in your posts. I am not sure why you are trying to bait me into an argument or a debate? I am not one who has a history of conflict on this Forum. If you are trying to give me one, please look elsewhere, I have no interest, but I am fully capable of wearing that title with factual information! Thank You, Troy | ||
| Blake |
I have a major sore spot for red herrings that are employed to support a point of view. Your claim poked it. If we cannot back up a factual assertion used to support a point in a debate, we shouldn't use it. Just stick to facts. It's just a huge sore spot for me, a major irritation. My perception is that you were taking what amounts to a very tiny minority situation to characterize a HUGE majority of believers. It's not only a dubious claim to begin with, it is a false analogy using false logic to try to ridicule believers. At least that is the way I read it. | ||
| Swordsman |
Nonetheless, be careful using earthly "norms" as a guide for life. Another norm for the world is to lick your own butt every day. Don't tell me you haven't tried!  Man may be more than an animal, but we're still built on an animal chassis, so to speak. And God chose to make us that way. Thus there are animal drives that we contend with. I'm not promoting multiple partners (and I certainly don't practice it), but I can see where it comes from. A good many of our religious guidelines were concocted by mortal men... by and large, we've set our own rules. ~SM | ||
| Blake |
"we've set our own rules." Therein lies the peril of humankind. The result is the likes of Brittany Spears. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
How can there be "rules" when everyone is able to do what they want? | ||
| Hex |
Round and round and round it goes... I'm reading Jung, Dali Lama, Ekman now. Remember my gang of chickens allegory? Groups, tribes, societies of all living persuasions (plants and fungi too) respond to others of like and dissimilar type. I'm sure Darwin has something to say about this as well. I can't wait until "Creation" makes it to our local theater. No answers here, just more questions... | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
The result is the likes of Brittany Spears. More like, The result is all of us. (Brittany included) |
