| Author |
Message |
    
Sifo
| | Posted on Friday, January 29, 2010 - 11:48 am: | 
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They may claim the batteries will last for X years and X00,000 miles and it may be true that they won't totally fail. Everything that I own with lithium ion batteries from digital camera, cell phone, computer etc. after a few years the battery performance is a fraction of what it was new. I don't see how a battery in a car can possibly be different. I assume in a hybrid this will be seen in reduced MPG experience.
According to the link Dentguy provided it's going to cost about $3,900 for a battery replacement on the Prius when it is needed. Even if you go 8-10 years on the original battery that has be be factored in on the trade in value of a used hybrid. I haven't looked at the numbers on that myself, but I certainly would if I were considering a hybrid.
Diesel OTOH runs great for a long time. Rings/cylinder walls are lubricated by diesel fuel as apposed to having oil washed off of cylinder walls by gasoline. I test drove a TDI wagon recently and was quite impressed. I was surprised that the salesman said there was no wait for glow plugs to warm up. I don't know how they got around that typical diesel quirk. Perhaps a TDI owner can confirm that one. |
Crackhead
| | Posted on Friday, January 29, 2010 - 12:03 pm: |
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TDI are nothing like the old diesels. The fuel pressure is higher, the VW has a variable van turbo, ect.
The tolerance for the car batteries is a lot tighter then normal electronics. Sony note book on fire doesn't make the headlines like a hybrid on fire. |
Jb2
| | Posted on Friday, January 29, 2010 - 12:38 pm: |
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Neil,
We've worked on several of the Prius and just completed an Insight. Batteries on the Insight are a lot simpler and use less room than the Prius. Build quality is comparable between the two models. Parts availability are about the same. Honda was quicker on the draw with the odd and uncommon clips and parts. Honda provided all the tech info for disabling the system and details regarding procedures for free. Toyota will not provide that info but it can be purchased online from their website. I've always had excellent back-up from Honda. Toyota not as good as Honda but better than most other imports.
Always, when considering an import, be sure you can get parts for your car 5 & 10 years after the model year. This is where the import market really sucks. Honda is the best by far.
JB2 |
Jb2
| | Posted on Friday, January 29, 2010 - 12:40 pm: |
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BTW, Volkswagen is absolutely one of the worst for parts availability and technical back-up.
(Message edited by jb2 on January 29, 2010) |
Hughlysses
| | Posted on Friday, January 29, 2010 - 12:44 pm: |
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Here's another thought- drop a Cummins 4BT diesel engine in your F-150. There's a whole site dedicated to these swaps; the engines are commonly installed in bread vans and similar vehicles. ~120 HP, ~300 ft-lbs torque stock, easily boostable to ~200 HP, ~400 ft-lbs with external mods. Run forever. ~30 MPG in a vehicle like your F-150. |
Spiderman
| | Posted on Friday, January 29, 2010 - 12:52 pm: |
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JB,
What experience have you had?
I just recently had a wiper motor go and the service writer said that broken parts aren't cover. I laughed at him and said get it fixed or there would be hell to pay. So it took less than a week to get the new motor and fixed.
Other than the "broken parts' convo it was rather painless and quick?
So just curious as to others experiences cause I am thinkin about getting another VW when my lease is up...
Thanks |
Mr_grumpy
| | Posted on Friday, January 29, 2010 - 12:59 pm: |
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Cummins +1, or go for the Vee Dub diesel, don't worry about parts availability, there are loads of online sources that will ship to you? (I'll even do it myself if you ask me nicely)
Only thing with a VW diesel, Use the VW oil not any other, I know not what the difference is but by all reports I've read it virtually doubles the life of the motor. |
Jb2
| | Posted on Friday, January 29, 2010 - 01:01 pm: |
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Spidey,
I work in a collision shop. It's always hurry up and wait with VW parts. Numerous times we've had customer rentals run out before we could capture all the parts to even begin the repair. Could be our geographical location but I buy from the biggest dealer in Indiana.
Had you owned an American vehicle my bet is they would have had a wiper motor on the shelf or delivered within a day. I deal with it everyday, there is no comparison. GM and Ford are neck and neck for the best and Chrysler(sucks) falls somewhere after Honda and Toyota
Not to worry there are a couple worse than VW. Isuzu and Mercedes comes to mind.
JB2 |
Spiderman
| | Posted on Friday, January 29, 2010 - 02:08 pm: |
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So it's body parts not mechanical then?
The week wasn't cause of part availability but in line behind others, it was actually on in the ship for 3 working days, I dropped it off Friday evening, and it was ready Wendsday After noon... |
Mr_grumpy
| | Posted on Friday, January 29, 2010 - 02:24 pm: |
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Spidey, makes you wonder how many other poor sods they've pulled the "It's not covered" crap with, & got away with it.
But that's the dealer not the marque. |
Spiderman
| | Posted on Friday, January 29, 2010 - 02:31 pm: |
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Indeed, I have worked with enough peeps at H-D trying to deny warranty claims on Buells when I was at a dealer so I know how to talk the talk in case they did try an pull that... |
Jb2
| | Posted on Friday, January 29, 2010 - 02:54 pm: |
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Spidey,
It can be anything, seriously. We just bought a complete used Cabrio door to get unobtainium window regulator parts that were no longer serviced by VW. We had a an '06 Wolfsburg that sat here for three weeks waiting on AC parts. That's just in the last six months. Each one seems to present its own unique problems. Good thing is they don't break very often, but you might be waiting a very long time when they do.
JB2 |
Mr_grumpy
| | Posted on Friday, January 29, 2010 - 04:43 pm: |
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http://www.gsfcarparts.com/exportdepartment.html
http://www.volkswagenspares.com/
These are 2 of the main players in the UK |
Ccryder
| | Posted on Friday, January 29, 2010 - 05:06 pm: |
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Vern:
You one funny guy, move closer LOL. This is our little piece of heaven 7+ac out in the country. Just what we dreamed about. It was a compromise in distance b/t the Wife and I.
This job has job security (which is hard to come by these days!!!). Heck in less than 8 years I can retire and enjoy "the ranch" even more and me and the Wife will enjoy what we have worked so hard to achieve.
So in the mean time I'll ride as much as possible (except for days like today with snow and 22 deg).
So what I'm trying to glean from this thread is the collective knowledge of this group of like minded people. I do appreciate the comments and suggestions of all of you, don't stop now. It is up to me to sift through the information.
Later
Neil S. |
Aesquire
| | Posted on Friday, January 29, 2010 - 06:38 pm: |
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My Dad has a Prius, loves it. It's been in the shop multiple times, but not for engine or drivetrain. ( and a few times were for body work.... Vacations can be hazardous ) It gets great mileage, and the more stop & go the better, still, decent highway mileage, he claims never less than 35mpg and sometimes more than 45. In winter the gas engine is needed for heat & the AC sucks energy as well, so mileage is lower in cold or very hot weather. Fit & finish is good, it's a bit small inside, but they've driven from NY to Nebraska & Florida multiple times, and would buy another.
I got the VW TDI Sportwagen last summer. I have a 15 mile daily commute ( one way & with a big hill ) combined 2 lane country road 55mph & expressway 65-70+mph and get 30-35 on that run, depending on weather ( heated seats & blower on high make a 2-4 mpg diff. ) I run lights on most of the time. I never get much less than 30mpg no matter the run.
Best so far has been an honest 45mpg in expressway & backroad running with speeds of 55-72, almost all cruise control. ( how I avoid tickets in a car ) It routinely gets 50+mpg at any given time, and If I reset the odo at a thruway rest stop, creep up to 55mph and cruise on the level, it's pretty impressive...but not realistic. It has an instant or average mileage display, that's fun, and helps you hypermile if you want to.
Fit & finish are excellent, handling is skateboard quick ( with the 17" wheels, a bit more family car with 16"ers ) and torque is impressive. 140 quickly winded ponies...but 236 ft. lbs. of torque make it a sleeper in a drag race...up to 50+ at least. I've blown off a few surprised commuters with V8's. It does run out of steam up top...sort of like my Cyclone.
There IS turbo lag. If you had an 70-80's turbo car, It's mild. If you never drove a turbo, you'll spaz.
It is a lot like My Buell. A little quirky, great handling, incredible mileage, massive torque, but not the fastest in the crowd. Who cares? It's my daily driver.
The DSG?( automatic twin clutch trans ) if you are a stick man...get the stick. The DSG is the most impressive auto ever, IMHO. Shifts are instant, and "S" mode keeps it on the turbo & shifting at redline, HARD. Fun. My only complaint is I want the Brembo's from the GTI, I believe it has the rest of the suspension. |
Sifo
| | Posted on Friday, January 29, 2010 - 06:43 pm: |
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I just saw an Insight this afternoon. Not a car I would consider just on style points. Clearly this is a personal opinion, but wow, that is on ugly car!
(Message edited by SIFO on January 29, 2010) |
Fung
| | Posted on Friday, January 29, 2010 - 07:03 pm: |
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I have driven the 2010 Prius, i like it for a car. It has a 8 year warranty so thats when you trade. Gets good mpg . test them both. If its more about money find a 1980's vw rabbit diesel.
(Message edited by fung on January 29, 2010) |
Ccryder
| | Posted on Sunday, January 31, 2010 - 11:18 pm: |
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I'll probably wait till next fall since I can't do it in the next month or so and after that I'll just ride till November. That will give me time to drive them and shop for a deal.
I never go into car buying w/o research.
Thx all.
Neil S. |
Froggy
| | Posted on Monday, February 01, 2010 - 03:17 am: |
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Cruise control kills your gas mileage, as it increases throttle when you are going up a hill. True hypermilers don't use it at all. 
quote:I'll probably wait till next fall
There will be another contender available then, one that normal people (not you) wouldn't need gas at all
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Ccryder
| | Posted on Monday, February 01, 2010 - 05:40 am: |
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Thanks froggy, I was worried for a moment. |
Ccryder
| | Posted on Monday, February 01, 2010 - 05:12 pm: |
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Some interesting read:
Shopping for a new car on a budget is simple -- just pick the cheapest one that you can afford, right?
Not so fast. A car costs a lot more than whatever price you pay at the dealership. In fact, it’s an investment that requires you to keep paying well after your monthly payments are complete. With fuel costs, insurance fees, maintenance, repairs and even depreciation, your car can wind up costing more than twice the price you originally paid. Experts call this your car’s Total Cost of Ownership (TCO).
Though there’s no getting around it, you can minimize your TCO by choosing a car that’s cheaper on gas, more reliable or holds a higher resale value (or a clever combination of the three). Luckily, you won’t need to do a lot of complicated research. IntelliChoice, the auto industry’s leading source on TCO, forecasts and factors these costs into a single, easy-to-understand estimate that tells car shoppers how much they can expect to spend on a new car over the course of five years.
More from U.S. News & World Report
» Best Cars for the Money 2010
» This Month's Best Car Deals
Combined with analysis from U.S. News’ car rankings, we take a look at five popular affordable small cars and compare their five-year TCO estimates to class competitors. We even recommend similar alternatives that provide more overall value. In some cases, our recommended picks have slightly more expensive starting prices. In the long run, however, they prove to be the better buy.
The IntelliChoice data is based on 2009-model vehicles. However, most of these cars have changed very little since last year -- making the estimates good guides for 2010 models. In the end, what we find might shock you. Cars that seem like a bargain can often be budget busters.
Chevrolet Aveo
MSRP: $11,965 - $15,365
Those in the market for a new car but with little money to spend will like that the Aveo comes cheap. It doesn’t provide exceptional performance or a lot of cool convenience features, but it’s roomy for a small car and gets good gas milage -- netting an EPA-estimated city/highway fuel economy as high as 27/35 mpg. And while Chevy only provides three years or 36,000 miles of basic coverage, it does provide a lengthy five-year/100,000-mile powertrain warranty.
Still, the Aveo is trumped by its competitors in nearly every category. And while its MSRP starts below $12K, IntelliChoice assigns it a value rating of “Below Average” to “Average.” The Aveo’s total five-year TCO ranges from $25,570 to $28,457, depending on trim.
Better Buy: Starting at $9,900, the Nissan Versa carries an even lower sticker price than the Aveo. What’s more, IntelliChoice assigns the Versa a value rating of “Above Average” to “Excellent,” and its total five-year TCO ranges from just $21,302 to $27,106. The 2009 Versa even won IntelliChoice’s “SmartChoice” award for ownership costs.
Suzuki SX4 Crossover
MSRP: $13,359 - $19,949
The SX4 Crossover’s biggest selling point is that it comes equipped with all-wheel drive -- a rarity in the class of affordable small cars. Its wagon body style also provides a whopping 16 to 54 cubic feet of cargo room. However, drivers looking to save a few bucks won’t like its less-than-stellar city/highway fuel economy of 22/30 mpg. On the plus side, its powertrain warranty runs for seven years or 100,000 miles, which is one of the longest in its class.
Though the SX4 Crossover has a lot going for it, it doesn’t provide much value. IntelliChoice assigns it a value rating of “Below Average” and estimates that its five-year TCO ranges from $31,792 to $32,607, depending on trim.
Better Buy: Shoppers with little use for an all-wheel drivetrain can get more for their money by opting for a Honda Fit instead. Not only does it earn an IntelliChoice Value rating of “Excellent,” but in 2009 it won numerous awards -- including IntelliChoice’s “Best Overall Value of the Year” for compact vehicles priced under $17,000. Depending on what trim you buy, the Fit’s five-year TCO ranges from $23,645 to $28,332.
Mitsubishi Lancer
MSRP: $14,790 - $27,590
Critics knock the Lancer for its poor acceleration and sub-par cabin materials, but it’s arguably the best looking vehicle in the class of affordable small cars. Not surprisingly, car shoppers who prioritize image over quality flock to it. An added bonus is its relatively low sticker price and lengthy warranty -- five years or 60,000 miles of bumper-to-bumper coverage and 10-years or 100,000 miles of powertrain coverage.
Shoppers, however, shouldn’t assume that the Lancer is a great buy. With the exception of the top-of-the-line Ralliart trim level, the Lancer earns an IntelliChoice value rating of “Below Average” to “Average.” Also, its total five-year TCO ranges from $23,917 to $32,400, depending on trim.
Better Buy: Despite its less-attractive design and a recent recall regarding unintended acceleration, the Toyota Corolla is a better value. In fact, IntelliChoice gives the Corolla a value rating of “Above Average” to “Excellent,” and estimates its total five-year TCO at $21,566 to $30,426. In 2009, the Corolla was awarded IntelliChoice’s “SmartChoice” award for highest retained value.
Car shoppers, however, should take note that Toyota has halted sales on 2009-2010 Corollas until it can resolve a dangerous issue related to its acceleration pedal. Drivers unable to wait until the problem is fixed should consider the Hyundai Elantra instead. At $27,735, its base model has a higher TCO than both the Lancer and Corolla. However, it features one of the longest warranties in its class (five years/60,000 miles of basic coverage and 10 years/100,000 miles of powertrain coverage) and is a recipient of IntelliChoice’s “Smart Choice” award for lowest repair costs.
Ford Focus
MSRP: $15,995 - $18,485
The Focus attracts affordable car shoppers who want the option to add a few extra bells and whistles. It doesn’t afford much in the way of performance or cargo capacity, but features Ford’s popular Sync infotainment system -- standard on all trims but the base. Also standard is MyKey, which promotes safe driving habits in teens by allowing parents to limit their top speed to 80 mph, disable the audio system when seatbelts are not in use and sound a persistent chime when the vehicle’s speed hits 45, 55 and 65 mph.
Despite its cool gadgets, the Focus earns an IntelliChoice value rating of “Poor” to “Below Average.” And while the base model nets a total five-year TCO estimate of $29,630, the highest trim’s TCO is $34,220.
Better Buy: The Honda Civic provides more value and sacrifices little in the way of safety. With so many Civic trims and packages available, IntelliChoice offers numerous value ratings. However, most standard models earn an “Above Average” to “Excellent” Rating. While the base-model DX Coupe’s total five-year TCO is estimated at $21,190, the standard EX-L’s is pegged at $31,278. In 2009, many Civic trims received IntelliChoice’s “SmartChoice” award for retained value.
Scion tC
MSRP: $17,000 - $17,800
While the Focus appeals to parents, the tC is aimed squarely at teens and young adults. It’s not as powerful or sporty as some competitors, but it sure looks the part. Plus, Scion lets drivers customize their rides with a wide selection of tuner options. And though its three-year/36,000-mile basic warranty and five-year/60,000-mile powertrain warranty are basic for the class of affordable small cars, Scion is a product of Toyota -- which has a reputation for building reliable vehicles.
Even so, the tC’s overall value is cause for concern. Not only does it receive an IntelliChoice value rating of “Below Average,” but its total five-year TCO ranges from $26,456 to $30,972.
Better Buy: The MINI Cooper is just as appealing to young drivers and provides more value. In fact, IntelliChoice gives the Cooper and Cooper S trims a value rating of “Excellent” and estimates that their total five-year TCO ranges from $25,102 to $31,507. The MINI Cooper received numerous IntelliChoice awards in 2009 -- including “SmartChoice” for lowest maintenance costs and “Best Overall Value of the Year” for the convertible trim. |
Froggy
| | Posted on Monday, February 01, 2010 - 05:31 pm: |
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quote:While the Focus appeals to parents, the tC is aimed squarely at teens and young adults.
Why is it that I see mostly seniors driving them?
quote:Scion is a product of Toyota -- which has a reputation for building reliable vehicles.
Thats like stating "Buell is a product of Harley Davidson -- which has a reputation for building great sportbikes" |
Ccryder
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 03, 2010 - 03:54 pm: |
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quote:
Scion is a product of Toyota -- which has a reputation for building reliable vehicles
Oops, now that's fallen down the tube! NHTSA has had over 100 complaints about the Prius brakes! Something is amiss.
Honda just announced that even though their sales are down, their profits jumped six fold!! I'd like to see that business model!!
Neil S. |
Froggy
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 03, 2010 - 04:21 pm: |
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I was looking at the Honda sales figures the other day because it came up in a discussion. GM and Toyota have been neck and neck for the last few years, selling 8 or 9 million cars annually each globally, while Honda pumps out only about 3.4 million. Yet somehow, Honda sells over 15 million motorcycles and scooters a year. They also sell a healthy number of small engines (lawn mowers, generators, etc).
Even if Honda car sales tank, they still got plenty of steam from everything else they got their hands in, except Formula 1. |
Hootowl
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 03, 2010 - 04:53 pm: |
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Sifo,
The glow plugs do come on, for a period of time that is dependent on what the air temperature is. If it is above 40 degrees, the time that it takes you to go from ON to START is enough. I have started in 20 degree temps while forgetting to wait, and it starts anyway.
Mr Grumpy,
The VW TDI oil is different. Several manufactures now make oil that meets the VW 505.05 (or some such nonsense) spec now, though VW used to be the exclusive purveyor. Castrol and Valvoline are two, but there are others, though not all their oil meets that spec, in fact, I have only been able to find it at VW dealers. I carry a bottle in the trunk, just in case. The fuel pump for each cylinder is driven off a cam lobe, and since the cam has to accommodate the valves too, the lobes are fairly narrow. This is the reason for the special oil spec. Using a non VW TDI spec oil WILL violate your warranty and WILL result in damage to the fuel system.
The 2008+ VW TDIs do not have individual fuel pumps driven off cam lobes, so they may not be subject to using the 505.05 oil spec.
Aesquire,
Your DSG performs shifts in 8 milliseconds. Mine shifts as fast as I can work the lever, which is a whole lot longer than 8 milliseconds. |
Sifo
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 03, 2010 - 06:15 pm: |
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Thanks Hootowl. I also got that same answer from Aesquire via PM. |
Ccryder
| | Posted on Thursday, February 04, 2010 - 08:43 pm: |
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After all the Toyota press and now issues with the Prius, I guess I'll hold off making a decision. My Sister has an 10' Prius and was waaay bummed when I broke the news to her about the brake issue! It's her 2nd Prius. It will give some more time to let things shake out. |
Dbird29
| | Posted on Thursday, February 04, 2010 - 11:27 pm: |
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Maybe there are some Toyota bargains to be had out there. |
Cochise
| | Posted on Thursday, February 04, 2010 - 11:47 pm: |
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Prius and the Insight are similar cars. Both the same kind of Hybrid, just set up different. The Prius is a Battery powered vehicle with a gasoline engine for backup. The Insight is a gasoline powered vehicle with a battery backup. You can get a 2010 Honda Insight with Navigstion for around $23,800, or $21'ish for one without. Prius, you're looking around $26,000 for the same thing. It's gonna take you about 5-6 years to break even by the gas money you would end up spending. I think it was back in '97 when they came out with the first Insight, we have only had 2 problems with batteries going bad, and they had over 280,000 miles on them. Batteries for the new Insight are only $2500 to be replaced. 8 years/100,000 miles IS the actual warranty on the batteries. EX model comes with USB port for iPods, or flash drives of music. The batteries aren't gonna be like your cellphones or anything like that because they aren't plugged in. They charge by centrifigal(sp) force. 98 horsepower on the engine and 13 on the battery, so there's plenty of power. Consumer Reports were able to get 60 M.P.G. on the Insight. Honda Insight's come with everything you want, nothing you don't. We DID have to change one battery system on one of our Insight's because it wasn't driven in over 100 days. I love the Insight, if you can't tell. Ccryder, make the short drive to Arkansas and I'll hook you up with a new Insight....remember, Honda Insight doesn't have faulty brakes. Sorry, couldn't resist. Done take MY word for it, go to
http://www.edmunds.com/popupinfo/abouttruecosttoow n.html
Punch in the Insight and the Prius and see what you think |
Bikertrash05
| | Posted on Friday, February 05, 2010 - 01:47 am: |
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Civic or VW TDI. I personally would NEVER own a hybrid, but besides that, and as stated earlier, highway miles aren't where hybrids "shine". I had a '96 Buick Riviera for 7 years, and when gas prices went up I bought the Civic. Sure, it doesn't smoke the tires from a stop (hybrids are even slower), but it handles great and I get at least 30mpg on regular gas (and I drive "spiritedly"). I was the guy who wondered why people buy Civics, now I know after 70k trouble free and fun miles. |
Froggy
| | Posted on Friday, February 05, 2010 - 10:36 am: |
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Hybrids get great gas mileage on the highway due to great aerodynamics, as the electric motor is barley used on the highway.
The 2010 Prius has a 0-60 time of 9.8 seconds, Insight 10.5, while a normal Civic is about 9.2 seconds. The 95 Riviera does it in an amazing 7.7 seconds. |
Blake
| | Posted on Sunday, February 07, 2010 - 08:54 am: |
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Neil,
Hybrids only begin to make sense when most of your driving is stop and go city driving where brakes and accelerator are alternately vigorously exercised. In cruise mode the electric motors do not kick in, so there is no benefit to the hybrid.
The fact that your truck is getting such good fuel mileage pretty much proves that you won't benefit from a hybrid versus a top performing gasoline or diesel powered auto. |
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