| Author | Message | ||
     Ft_bstrd |
Yeah, we tell it a little differently. What's the difference between a Catholic and a Baptist? Catholics will say hey to each other in the liquor store. My parents are teetotalers. Growing up there was NEVER a drop of alcohol in the house. I am not. I believe that the stance that the Southern Baptist Convention takes on alcohol is incorrect and not supported by the scriptures. There is a GREAT book called Velvet Elvis by the pastor of Mars Hill, Rob Bell. In it he describes the falacy of organized religion in that it tends to freeze the reading and interpretation of the scriptures and encourages the followers of one particular denomination to cease seeking new truth and interpretation of the bible. Bell likens this to painting a masterpiece and then stating that ther need not be another painting done because this painting is perfect. My parents and grand parents before me painted a "portrait" of faith. It is my generation to test that portrait or interpretation and seek God's guidance to new truth. Those who are ONLY willing to follow a worn path and are unwilling to allow the faith to become frozen risk becoming dead in their beliefs and their daily lives. Additionally, they lose the ability to relate to those who fail to share their beliefs. My mother works for the Ethics and Religious Liberties Committee. This is the group that decides which organization the Southern Baptist is going to boycott next. I liken this tactic to lobbing artillery rounds over the hill at enemies they will never see. I asked my mother how many gay people Dr. Land has ever met or talked with. She said none. I asked her how he expects to alter the hearts and minds of people he has never seen and will never meet. It is only when others see a life in us that they wish to emulate that you will cause others to seek you. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
I am not. I believe that the stance that the Southern Baptist Convention takes on alcohol is incorrect and not supported by the scriptures. +1 I may have the characters confused but I do recall a passage from the Bible where Jesus tells one of his disciples?? to drink some wine because he was not feeling well or had been ill. I don't believe Jesus would have suggested wine if it didn't contain some alcohol. | ||
| Slaughter |
Interesting - in that Dr Land has met and talked to gay people - it's just that he hasn't realized it at that time or since that time. Too bad that people on BOTH sides of this war on terror consider hate to be a virtue. Amazing how similar enemies can actually become. | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
This offers a false premise, that atheists are incapable of conflict. Apart from the communists (which is near enough a religion) I've not heard much about fundamental atheist terrorists. As I said, " The troublemakers & extremists would find other causes to transmit their rage through, but against a less dis-united population their effect would less." | ||
| Hex |
My sister is always telling me that: "They (American Christians and Middle Eastern Muslims) have taken the 'fun' out of fundamentalism." How apropos. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Apart from the communists (which is near enough a religion) I've not heard much about fundamental atheist terrorists. You do realize that communism as practiced in the last several centuries has included one of the purest forms of atheism, right? "Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." --Karl Marx-- "Atheism is a natural and inseparable part of Marxism, of the theory and practice of scientific socialism." "Religion is the opium of the people: this saying of Marx is the cornerstone of the entire ideology of Marxism about religion. All modern religions and churches, all and of every kind of religious organizations are always considered by Marxism as the organs of bourgeois reaction, used for the protection of the exploitation and the stupefaction of the working class." --Vladimir Lenin Communism, the singular largest example of pure atheism and emphasis on secular humanism, has murdered more than the combined "jihads" of every major religion in the world since the beginning of time. These folks weren't practicing a "religion" or being driven by any sort of edict from a deity. Communism, in the last two centuries, has murdered over 130,000,000 people. While bloody, the crusades resulted in one to five million deaths and the Spanish Inquisition in a mere 32,000. Conversely, we murder 1.37 million unborn children in the name of "choice". There have been an estimated 52 million abortions since Roe v. Wade. If the "religious community" has been able to prevent just one in ten abortions from taking place, more lives have been saved by Christians than were killed by Christians given the most often cited reasons for the evils of Christianity. | ||
| Ninefortheroad |
Right on Ft_bstrd! You have some very good insights and seem well studied on history! As history has proven, True Marxism is not probable (or possible?) or even the attempts called Communism or Socialism, have fallen apart fairly quickly. Lesson: We should be very leary of any government that wants to remove all traces of God from Government and Public places. You also make very clear, factual and should be very disturbing statements about abortion. History will also, no doubt, show abortion as being the Holocaust of our day! Oh yeah, here goes.... Man is the one that creates the complexity of religion and/or belief systems. My reference is Jesus and the number of times and places He references children and His contempt for the Pharisees. Let's see, we got the Ten Commandments and "Love your Neighbor,...". If we used these as our base of reference, how wrong could we be? KISS principle one more.... WHO did Jesus "pay" with his suffering and death that we might be saved? | ||
| Ninefortheroad |
On alcohol... Jesus did not turn water into grape juice but wine! Realistically, grape juice would have gone bad in the mid-east heat quickly, wine would have kept much longer and was much favored over grape juice! | ||
| Moxnix |
"They (American Christians and Middle Eastern Muslims) have taken the 'fun' out of fundamentalism." Nice quip, but just another easy and cheap insult toward American Christians, those who have chosen salvation over wholesale pleasures of the flesh. Are all Christians perfect? None that I know. Are all muslims deviant? Prolly not. Outside of faith communities, various gradients of sin is celebrated as superior to that "Way" the Christian has chosen. It really just another lifestyle choice for both sides. And how many definitions of "fun" are we allowed to offer up from each side to win any debate? Christians expect the damned to persecute them. That is just another part of living in a fallen world. | ||
| Moxnix |
My understanding of my obligation, as a Christian, is to only judge other Christians, not those who remain separated from the Body of Christ on Earth. We should always "use judgement" in every step of our walk, but the lost are more to be pitied than censored. Evangelize to them, sure, as the last will be first. There are people purporting themselves to be Christians, but by their actions I judge them as carbuncles on the butt of the Body of Christ. Then again, they may think the same of me. | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
I should just like to point out, that Atheism has been around far longer than Marxism. To to imply that the acts of communist dictators & their regimes is that of all Atheists is patently absurd. True Marxists may be Atheists, but Atheists are not necessarily Marxists. Personally I'm neither, I'm Freddist! | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I agree Grump. I was simply following your initial line of reasoning. One thing shared by Marxist and atheist alike is the idea that the one thing wrong with the world is religion. If you could rid the world of quaint superstitious beliefs there would be no conflict and the world would be an enlightened utopia. The political philosophy may be different but the view on religion isn't. There have been far fewer people killed into name of religion than killed in the course of political (non-religious) upheaval. There is no guarantee of political nirvana given the absence of religion. Probably the opposite. | ||
| Jstfrfun |
Mox, you were expressly directed by your scriptures NOT to judge! We are all Children in Christ and have no authority to opinionate or judge, leave that to the one who made the sacrifice! | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
JFF, I think Mox was referencing the following: "What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside." 1 Corinthians 5:12-13. I know you are referencing this: "Do not judge, or you too will be judged." Matthew 7:1 It's the remainder of the quote that is usually missing from that verse: For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. 3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye. " The "brother" is an internal reference to another follower of Christ rather than a reference to someone not a follower of Christ. The verse cautions someone against judging someone when their house is not in order. This is where the speck/log reference comes in. This same admonition was played out in the real life account of Jesus: 1But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 6They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him. But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." 8Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground. 9At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" 11"No one, sir," she said. "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin." John 8:1-7 The Pharisees were hypocrites. Jesus knew their sin. When brought to their attention, THEY knew their sin. Jesus reserved his harshest rebuffs for those in places of spiritual leadership who were more concerned about their status and the sins of others that in the sin in their own lives. He didn't excuse the sin of the woman. Rather, he provided the opportunity for a new beginning given that she turn from her previous life of adultry and begin a new life. The message of Christ wasn't in the condemnation of man but in the restitution of the soul. | ||
| Moxnix |
Revelation 22:15 KJV-- For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. Do I stay inside the church and avoid those outside, or go outside and work on welcoming the outside to the inside? One can go amongst those outside without becoming them, just as the outside can visit the inside without becoming us. Do I remain silent in the outside so no one is offended, or speak a truth and deal with responses? Should I encourage heresy, encourage actions of self-harm, and cave in to the displaying agreement with those who commit miscarriage of truth? The answer to the question is the question itself. 1 Cor. 5: 12-13-- is what I was relaying. Proverbs 19:25 Flog a mocker, and the simple will learn prudence; rebuke a discerning man and he will gain knowledge. I hope so, in both cases. Back to the inherently restful joy of a sabbath. Warm regards all . . . and my intention today is to gain traction with my own discernment. | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
Haynes 2057. 2-18-7 | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Sorry Grump. Can't have a discussion about the beliefs of one religion or another without going to the source material. Out working on your Yamaha FJ?  | ||
| Moxnix |
"Quel Panama!"-- an expression used in France in the early years of the 20th Century to describe an insoluble mess. | ||
| Swampy |
Social meltdown, I have been thinking alot about that a few years ago. Alot of the legal and religious "thou shalt nots" wether biblical or religious are in place to prevent sociatal meltdown, and to keep people from experiencing all the heartache of little kids running around with two sets of parents and the like. There are some I have been observant of such as not growing facial hair, bans on wire rim glasses, and women wearing skirts which are absolutly ridiculous and unfounded other than trying to broadly interpret scriptural restrictions to back up someones personal belief, usually only to bolster their own pharisitical christian beliefs and helped to develop a classed religious community, those that felt that they were "closer to God" compared to those that would not follow the broadly interpreted scriptural restrictions. (notice I didn't say wrongly, because every person has to decide just where the line they will not cross is) I realize Jesus didn't spend a whole lot of time chastizing the folks who weren't following the pharisees self rightousness. I had to paste this here also, just because.... | ||
| Blake |
"Communism, in the last two centuries, has murdered over 130,000,000 people." That is likely quite low. The starvation imposed by Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Kim Jong Il, and like has killed hundreds of millions. If you count fascist socilialists like the Nazis, who in truth were kissing cousins to the communists (read up on why the Nazi flag used a red background), then the body count grows even more horrendous. It's been fashionable for some time for the ignorant anti-religious types to try to demonize religions, especially Christianity. It's not honest. | ||
| Nik |
The Pharisees were hypocrites. Jesus knew their sin. When brought to their attention, THEY knew their sin. Jesus reserved his harshest rebuffs for those in places of spiritual leadership who were more concerned about their status and the sins of others that in the sin in their own lives. The portrayal of the Pharisees in the New Testament is at best inaccurate, and at worst slanderous anti-semitism. It goes against all independent accounts of the Pharisees. In fact their teachings were not all that different from those of Jesus himself; and given their emphasis on debate and disputation as part of finding truth, Jesus may have been one. | ||
| Ninefortheroad |
Man complicates truth. Many also want to dissect and debate what is truth. (complicate!) God (Jesus) kept it simple. This simplicity (of faith and morals) continues to confound man, especially western man | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
The portrayal of the Pharisees in the New Testament is at best inaccurate, and at worst slanderous anti-semitism. It goes against all independent accounts of the Pharisees. In fact their teachings were not all that different from those of Jesus himself; and given their emphasis on debate and disputation as part of finding truth, Jesus may have been one. You are serious or is this sarcastic? How can the account of Jesus, a Jew, and his interactions with the Pharisees, Jews, as written by Matthew, a Jew, John, a Jew, and Peter, a Jew, be considered anti-semitic? The largest contributing author to the new Testament, Saul of Tarsus (Paul), was a leading persecutor of early Christians and was himself not only a Jew but a Pharisee. I am interested in how you've come to this conclusion. Although critical of the hypocrisy of the Pharisees, I wouldn't construe the New Testament as anti-semitic in any way. | ||
| Metalrabbit |
I might know what Nik is fuzzed about. Christ came to fulfill prophecy of his own people, Matthew 15:24 "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel". But most didn't recognize him as The Christ or Deliverer. Hence the scripture, Romans 11:25 "Israel was hardened in part to allow the full number of the gentiles to come in". Jesus sent out the Apostles as The Church armed with The New Covenant for the Gentiles,, and any Jew that would receive him. His sacrifice is obviously for all mankind. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
The entire Old Testament is a historical narrative and foretelling of the coming of the Messiah. In order for the prophesies of Christ to come true, the Jews of Jesus' time MUST have rejected him. "17Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." Matthew 5:17 Jesus was stating that he was the fulfillment of the Old Testament rather than a replacement of it. | ||
| Jon |
Fatbastarday, Nice to see you are in the cleft of the rock. Never knew that. Pardon me for using your full name. It's what comes to mind whenever I see your sig | ||
| Metalrabbit |
In the same way that Jesus fulfilled our sin debt he also fulfilled the Law so that neither could condemn you. It's stuff that makes you squeeze your head it's so astounding. (Message edited by metalrabbit on January 26, 2010) | ||
| Cochise |
I heard an interesting story the other day from a pastor of a church that my church sponsors in Haiti. Our children at our church and our church raised up a bunch of money to purchase a Range Rover Diesel for the Pastor, Kennan Molme of Mole st. Nicholas. He just had gotten home, parked his new truck next to the 10-12 foot retaining wall that he uses to hide it from thieves. Anyway, he parked it there, went into his house, heard and felt the ground shake, went outside and watched his new truck bouncing about 11-16 inches off the ground across the yard. It went about 12 or so feet and right after the truck came to rest, the wall fell where the brand new truck had sat. I don't know who here believes in God/Jesus, or who doesn't, but I can guarantee you the above was no coincidence. | ||
| 4cammer |
"The entire Old Testament is a historical narrative and foretelling of the coming of the Messiah." Really? How so? | ||
| Nik |
How can the account of Jesus, a Jew, and his interactions with the Pharisees, Jews, as written by Matthew, a Jew, John, a Jew, and Peter, a Jew, be considered anti-semitic? Because most scholars date the transcription of those accounts at around 70-100 CE; AFTER Christianity had split from Judaism, when it had become clear that most Jews did not accept Jesus as the messiah (and when the Pharisees had since become the dominant form of Judaism after the destruction of the 2nd temple), when it was trying to seek converts among gentiles. You don't think then, as in now, spiritual leaders distorted those words to gain followers and punish the competition? After all, "He that is not with me is against me. " Matthew 12:30 Like I said, the characterization of the Pharisees in the New Testament is inconsistent with their own writings, and independent accounts from the Romans (specifically Josephus.) (Message edited by nik on January 26, 2010) |
