| Author | Message | ||
     Ferrisbuellersdayoff |
We're mad at HD for killing off Buell? Yes. Ok. We're talking trash about the new "48" Sporty? Yes. Ok. And it looks like they threw some spare junk on the bike and rebadged it as a new idea, right? Yes. Ok. Lets look at our Buells... Differences? Not many. Remember how many frames were available for the Tubers? And how many engine options? Mostly aesthetic differences seperated them. The the XB design(s)... Theres the Ss, SST, X, XP, XT Frame, and they all came with the same engine, just little things made them different. The R, S, SX, SL, Scg frame, 2 engine options, and each model had a corresponding look. The 1125 R & CR same frame and body work, different final drive and front end. Cut down before it could be developed further. I relaize my mistake and I had cast a stone too but I see I'm not better than they. | ||
| Nillaice |
are you goin thru 'buell company cool aid' withdrawls?  BFFB! | ||
| Edgydrifter |
Yeah, but EB saw fit to change the basic design more than once every fifty years. BFFB. HD can go suck eggs. | ||
| Cyclonedon |
Ferris, you had better watch out for your weiner and rat traps. Not a whole lot of love for the former mothership here on BadWeb.  For the record, I don't have anything against either Harley-Davidson motorcycles or their workers, but I have some issues with their board of directors. If they have one more reporting loss like they did today, you might see a change at the top. Or at least you should see a change in leadership. | ||
| Americanmadexb |
If Erik would have started BMC in 1903, you bet your ass this thread wouldn't have been started! | ||
| Chrisrogers3 |
This isnt uncommon though to an extent. EVERY business in the world does similar things. Think micro.....What are the differences between coffee, mochas, lattes, espresso, frapachino, iced coffee and so on..... Think macro....Differences between the Hummer2 and trailblazers, differences between the Chevy Silverado and GMC Sierra and so on. We can also play this game with motorcycles. How many GS models are there? How many GSX and GSXR combos are there. I know these arent the best examples but this is what you get 5 beers into my evening. In the end there has to be a basic commonality of parts so that inventory can be minimalized thus keeping overhead lower. Buell did a great job with doing MORE with LESS. Harley on the other hand is doing LESS with MORE. I see what you are trying to get at, and all in all I dont disagree with you but I dont fully agree with it either. | ||
| Pkforbes87 |
Ferris, I see what you're saying, but some very small differences in wheelbase, rake, peg position, and bar location effectively make the bikes feel like different machines. Buell made improvements to both the chassis and engine designs of their models, and they made them on a regular basis. ie: 96-98 buells had lightning heads, then 98 S1W's and 99-02 bikes all had t-storm heads (i dont know jack about pre-96 buells) 99-02 tubers all got an extra brace added to the front portion of the frame to increase frame rigidity. XB's were only produced for 5 years (03-07) before a MAJOR upgrade to the timing and ignition system. (crank sensor vs. cam sensor) along with many other minor upgrades through the years that I'm simply not familiar with. How many years since HD has put serious effort into making their bikes handle or perform better? I mean the XR1200 is supposed to be their "performance model" from the XL lineup, and it's advertised as making 73.91 1ft/lbs.. while a Buell X1 made 90 ft/lbs 10 years ago with the same displacement and CR! HD is no longer in the business of selling motorcycles. They're selling a cheap, overpriced image just like Hollister, Abercrombie & Fitch, Gap, etc. | ||
| Americanmadexb |
Buell did a great job with doing MORE with LESS. Harley on the other hand is doing LESS with MORE. Heard it before, but love it!!! | ||
| Sifo |
How many years since HD has put serious effort into making their bikes handle or perform better? I hate to jump into this and really hate defending HD, but facts are facts. They just did an entirely new touring frame in '09.  Their current big twin engine is only about 10 years old, not exactly ancient. It has been incrementally improved year by year too. XL got a new frame in '05. Big change in how that rides. I really hate to point this out, but HD beat Buell to the market with 6 speed transmissions. Before you jump on me about Buell using an HD mill, keep in mind that they could have sourced a tranny from Baker, in house, or other source. None of this is meant to defend what HD did to Buell, but facts are facts. There's plenty you can point at where HD screwed the pooch, but lets not get into HD Derangement Syndrome. | ||
| Milt |
Harley's philosophy seems to be "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". From their viewpoint, it ain't broke. From our viewpoint, maybe it ain't broke - just insufficient. | ||
| Swampy |
Overly heavy beheamoths, one of the factors contributing to the excess weight is the necessity to have extra brake components to get the needed friction to stop all the weight. Lean angle? Styling from the 40's? The advancements are basicly centered around much needed engine performance. And if they are truly trying for the 40's they should have done away with the rubber mounted Sportster. All they are working towards is looks and comfort, most FAGs probably don't even know why they have a 6 speed transmission. No Thanks, I think I will stick with my delusional condition of HD Derangement Syndrome, also known as HDDS | ||
| Xb984r |
How many bikes did Buell sell last year? How many Sportsters did H-D sell last year? You tell me which brand you would concentrate on marketing? It is not H-D's fault people were not buying Buells, the sportbike customer seen Buell as an underpowered ugly looking bike. It sucks that Buell is no more, but the market has spoken. | ||
| Just_ziptab |
I would wonder how many Sportsters Waterloo sold compared to Buells when Daves was there? | ||
| Buellboiler |
"It is not H-D's fault people were not buying Buells," That may not really be the issue, a good number of those that are buying H-Ds probably won't be riding (due to age) in 10 years. Bringing young people closer to H-D through Buell makes good marketing sense. Keeping Buells a low cost alternative is required because it is unlikely that your first bike is going to be a V-rod. | ||
| Speedfreaks101 |
Sifo, I agree that they beat Buell to the punch with the six speed but in the process they screwed that up too. The sixth gear has the same final drive as the previous five speed 1:1 ratio (no overdrive) so the point was mute with no real benefit. | ||
| Sifo |
I think HD is happy to let other manufacturers have the younger market. HD wants to be the brand that they will eventually 'graduate' to when they have the means. Not saying I agree with their philosophy, just that I can understand it. | ||
| Sifo |
Sifo, I agree that they beat Buell to the punch with the six speed but in the process they screwed that up too. The sixth gear has the same final drive as the previous five speed 1:1 ratio (no overdrive) so the point was mute with no real benefit. I guess Triumph must have missed out on that too. I don't believe 6th gear in my wife's Street Triple is an overdrive either. I think you will find most 6 speeds aren't overdrives. You lose efficiency with an overdrive. | ||
| Court |
>>>>It is not H-D's fault Actually, it is Buell, the motorcycle company, had ZERO to do with marketing. Harley-Davidson, arguably one of the most sophisticated motorcycle marketing groups in the world, spent tens of millions "marketing" Buell. They failed miserably and just never got past about 12,000 per year. It's one of the topics that always comes up with business people . . . "how they hell was HD not able to move the product. I'd submit that by and large the HD commit was quite shallow and hollow. There are individuals who stand out but the "corporate culture" was don't do anything for Buell you don't have to and do just enough to keep your ass covered until you move on to your next HD assignment. Recently a company tried to buy Buell from Harley-Davidson. . . .it was all but a done deal until two folks figured out . . . . . "hey . . if these guys sell 30,000 Buell next year, we'll look like assholes". Opinions will vary. | ||
| Ustorque |
Recently a company tried to buy Buell from Harley-Davidson. . . .it was all but a done deal until two folks figured out . . . . . "hey . . if these guys sell 30,000 Buell next year, we'll look like assholes". Opinions will vary. My opinion is they already look like Assholes! | ||
| F_skinner |
HD has put a lot of money into advertising for the "younger market." HD has done some great stuff in marketing but when it comes to delivering, they fail. Look at some of the military ads they are running. Most in the military are younger than their "core market". Imagine if they pushed Buell the same way. Moot point I guess. Buell made the 2005 frame for the Sporty possible. Take a look at the frame and motor mounts for the 05 and up sporty, then look at Tuber/XB motor mounts. While your doing that look at the heads and rocker covers. Have you ever wondered why they limit the HP of the Sporty motor when the same basic design (built on the same assembly line) makes about 35 more HP? (Message edited by f_skinner on January 23, 2010) | ||
| Steve_mackay |
we'll look like assholes Too late... | ||
| Xl1200r |
Eh, everyone can say what they like about HD and the new 48... But I'm with Ferris. Harley DOES improve their products, including new frames and the like, just like Buell did. You guys need to realize that Harley isn't trying to sell you a bike... you demand performance, handling, etc. - not everyone does. I like Harleys for what they are instead of hating them for what they're not. And by the way, this is just me, but the new 48 is pretty badass and the best "parts bin rebadge" project I've seen them do in a long time. If I had the cash just laying around and already had every other bike I wanted, I'd pick one up. Shoot me. | ||
| Sifo |
Have you ever way they seemed to limit the HP of the Sporty motor when the same basic design (built on the same assembly line) makes about 35 more HP? I don't know where you get your 35 HP difference figure. We've got an '06 Buell and an '09 Sporty in our garage. After stage one modifications the HP difference was less than 10 HP at the wheel. These were both on the same dyno too. Certainly the Sporty is tuned a bit differently than the Buell given the different intended use and difference in weight. This is true with our Speed Triple vs. the Daytona too. Nothing unusual there. | ||
| Court |
Don't mistake me for saying they don't improve their product . . . I think they do. But their cheese has been moved. Those improvements come slow and at a huge price. Plus each one, not unlike the VR perhaps the most failed race project of all time, is the result of a committee that eventually all compromised on something. I don't dislike the bike. I dislike the process that resulted in the bike. I have not particular problems with the "48", not would I even be terribly interested in much more power for it. It's a cruiser pure and simple. My PERSONAL thought is that if I were . . . . and I once bought 3 Sportsters in one day . . . still in that market . . I'd look at it . . .look at that $12000, or whatever it'll be, price tag . . . reread that line about "MSRP or no sale" and I'd but the cheapest 883 I could and spend $6,000 making it the bike I really wanted. Harley used to sell about 100,000 Sportsters a year. I'll have to read the reports that came out yesterday and see what they sold in CY09. I don't so much dislike the bike as I do the process that created it. | ||
| Xl1200r |
Court, all points taken, but the "MSRP or no sale" bit is a dealer problem, not an HD Corp problem. And yes, the process may suck, but the resulting product, and least in this case, is pretty cool. The biggest styling issue the Sportster has suffered from is the too-large gas tank. And again, yes, the bike doesn't need any power or lean angle than it has. It was built for a different purpose. The 35 hp deficit on a 1200cc Sportster vs a 1200cc Buell is due to lower compression, milder, cams and visual dictations on how the intake and exhaust systems need to LOOK, not just how they perform. | ||
| Court |
>>>>The biggest styling issue the Sportster has suffered from is the too-large gas tank. I agree. That's why I have the 2.25 off my favorite Sportster race bike sitting here on my desk. Every time they've done anything to that classic shape they've eroded it. I never really minded stopping every 90 miles on a Sportster anyway.  | ||
| Gohot |
All I saw was a bunch of dudes with Willie as their little demigod. Other than the rear fender without a license plate and the fat front tire, well all that impressed me was the 'new' tank paint job, the one in the off white motif. I'll admit the tank looked good, the rest, .......so whats new? You'll have to admit, the sportster has always been a handsome bike, and now with rubber mount their finally ridable for more than a couple hours. You know.......its all pr mouth-boogie anyway. | ||
| Rocketsprink |
I don't understand the " HD wants to be the brand that they will eventually 'graduate' to when they have the means" idea stuck in peoples heads. I would rather stop riding altogether than ride a H-D. This was my philosophy YEARS before Buell was closed. H-D needs to stop think of their bikes as the pinnacle of the bike world, because they are NOT. | ||
| Sifo |
I don't understand the " HD wants to be the brand that they will eventually 'graduate' to when they have the means" idea stuck in peoples heads. I would rather stop riding altogether than ride a H-D. This was my philosophy YEARS before Buell was closed. H-D needs to stop think of their bikes as the pinnacle of the bike world, because they are NOT. I certainly don't want to give the impression that I agree with that either, but many folks do feel that way. I think a lot of it has to do with pride of riding something American made. Face it, that is part of what attracted a lot of folks to Buell. It's hard to make the case that Buell represented the pinnacle of motorcycles when I got my XB either. My XB still suites my just fine though. P.S. I don't intend to get into defining 'American made'. | ||
| Gohot |
Theres something in the colors that make it look new, falsley new, but they scored on this tank color and the graphic.....some of you will get what I'm saying, to others there may be nothing different, it's just something about how all the paint work throws this bike in your face. But no.....this little attempt will not do much, most kids want rice rockets or Ducatis, heII, most kids are still living at home. go figure......  |
