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Hex
Posted on Thursday, January 21, 2010 - 03:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Good for conservatives? Bad for America? What do you think?

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/22/us/politics/22sc otus.html?hp
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Hootowl
Posted on Thursday, January 21, 2010 - 03:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I'm torn. I don't like the idea of telling people/companies what to do with their money, but I also know that money buys politicians. Perhaps now that they don't have to funnel it through third parties we'll see who is actually doing the buying?
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Madduck
Posted on Thursday, January 21, 2010 - 03:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

This step will hopefully eliminate the biggest problem facing our electoral process: to win you have to be independently wealthy. when only the truely wealthy can afford to run we all lose. Without this restriction we should see "real people" with a chance of winning attract enough money to make a race out of every election.

It should also eliminate the huge cash advantage the unions and trial lawyers have given the democratic party.
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Drkside79
Posted on Thursday, January 21, 2010 - 03:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Great for oil an tobacco companies bad for the rest of us. Another Sad day in America.

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Hootowl
Posted on Thursday, January 21, 2010 - 03:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I'm not sure I understand how it is good for oil companies any more than it is for any other company. Unless you're only saying that because Obama just said it, and then I understand completely.
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Rocketsprink
Posted on Thursday, January 21, 2010 - 03:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

duck, are you nuts? It gives corporations the same rights as individuals. Including foreign owned companies.Unions? They're the least of the concern.
Thanks to the 5 Conservative Judges on the Supreme Court, companies will now have even MORE of an influence on elections to the point where people will be so disenfranchised that you'll see voter totals drop like a stone. America is now a truly fascist country. Mussolini called the merger of state and corporations Fascism, and that's what we have here.
We are ALL screwed. People that thought/think their vote doesn't count or matter are 100% correct now.
Corporations can now dictate legislation, and ain't a damn thing we can do about it. Did I mention that includes foreign companies?
I though Obama was the Fascist?
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Milt
Posted on Thursday, January 21, 2010 - 04:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Rocketsprink,

You hit the nail square on the head. Unfortunately, this ruling is nothing new.

Corporations have had the same rights a people since 1886. This folly is one of things the framers did not foresee, and has greatly distorted our economic, social and political systems. It it a source of tyranny they never could have foreseen.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?c ourt=US&vol=118&invol=394

And as you've probably guessed, a "fascist" is anyone the speaker doesn't agree with.
Similarly, an "activist judge" is any judge the speaker doesn't agree with.
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Blake
Posted on Thursday, January 21, 2010 - 04:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

"Corporations can now dictate legislation"

Explain please.

Then explain how the Dem special interest supporters like labor unions and trial lawyers and all the rest are of no consequence.

Explain how Wall Street was able to achieve their bailouts with the Dems in power. Your trust in them and distrust of corporations is bizarre.

Why is it automatically bad that corporations, you know, those business entities that employ a LOT of people, provide them with health insurance and the like, why is it inherently bad for them to be able to voice their views when it comes to political issues and campaigns?

Because you think that corporations are evil?

That sure is a goofed up way of thinking, not one based in reality from my perspective. Seems that labor unions and Democrats are clinging to the old view of child labor and worker oppression that existed a hundred years ago.

Darn evil corporations! Darn Microsoft! Darn Apple Computer! Darn Boeing! Darn Dell Computer! Darn Hewlett Packard! Darn Texas Instruments! Darn Anheuser-Busch! Darn Ford Motors! Darn Caterpillar! Darn IBM! Darn Exxon-Mobile! Darn Alcoa! Darn AT&T! Darn Amazon.com! Darn ebay! Darn Google! Darn all the corporations???

I'd not fear corporations as long as effective anti-trust laws remain intact and the media remains vigilant.

I'd fear the federal government, the entity which sees fit to take our hard-earned profits under threat of prison. That is what I'd be most concerned about. Yet the irrational anti-corporation cry goes out from those who would entrust their lives to the federal government.

It's an alternate universe from which such anti-corporation views seem to spring forth, pretty much straight off the propaganda sheets of our former cold war enemies, the Marxist communists of the world.
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Reepicheep
Posted on Thursday, January 21, 2010 - 04:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

How can you NOT be chilled thinking that individuals, acting together as a group with a shared interest, are legally forbidden to use their collective resources to make public statements? Corporation, Church, school, I don't care... free speech is free speech.

The previous law gave the media, which is hugely liberally slanted, a disproportionate ability to control the framework of public dialog. What was the last objective figure I saw... 80% of journalists vote democratic? So during the last two weeks of an election, where 90% of the work is done, all groups can only go through journalists filters and frameworks to state their positions.

Outrageous.

Corporations should have every bit as much freedom to make their case as the media establishment has to frame it. The deck is still often stacked against them, as witnessed by the Obama 1 hour national TV health care informercial (given to democrats free as it matched the Democrat template) while the Republicans couldn't even *buy* an hour to present a rebuttal.

The law shouldn't go any further then making things as transparent as possible. I understand this is really hard in practice, but thats where the legislation should be aimed, not at stifling free speech.

So work for transparency, work for accountability, work for "truth in advertising", and work to enforce conflict of interest rules. Don't work to pass laws to make it ***illegal*** to say what you believe.

There will still be injustices swinging both directions, but the free market will do a lot better job of sorting that out so long as free speech is really free speech, and outright falsehoods and slander are still illegal.

When I worked at GE aircraft engines, which was doing some defense work, I was not allowed to take anything worth more then a coffee cup from anyone who could be a potential supplier. And it was enforced. Otherwise, there was a VERY real chance I would be fired. I think the same standard ought to be held for Washington, and Barney Frank (who chewed out and shut down an auditor stating that Fannie Mae / Freddie Mac were taking extroidanry risks and could trigger a global financial meltdown) while he was involved in a romantic relationship with a Fannie Mae / Freddie Mac employee.

He should have recused himself immediately...
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Aeholton
Posted on Thursday, January 21, 2010 - 04:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

If government can take money away from corporations via taxes, why shouldn't they be able to support who they want in charge of those tax dollars?
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Ducxl
Posted on Thursday, January 21, 2010 - 04:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

while he was involved in a romantic relationship with a Fannie Mae / Freddie Mac employee.


What was HIS name?
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Rocketsprink
Posted on Thursday, January 21, 2010 - 04:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Sweet. Now corporations can money bomb a candidate, thus own the candidate with the "I made you and I can break you" mentality. THAT"S HOW THEY DICTATE LEGISLATION BY USING THE POLITICIAN THEY OWN.
Corporations ARE NOT INDIVIDUALS. Why is that so hard to understand?



"That sure is a goofed up way of thinking, not one based in reality from my perspective. Seems that labor unions and Democrats are clinging to the old view of child labor and worker oppression that existed a hundred years ago."

Yeah Blake. That ended 100 years ago. Open you frickin' eyes. Who do you think make all your clothes? Well paid Indonesians?
I know you're not that stupid.

Only reinforces, to me, that the Republican Party is nothing but Corporatist.

So you never agreed with McCain in his sponsoring of finance reform? About the only thing he did that made any sense to me.
IMHO,this is a sad day for America.
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Rocketsprink
Posted on Thursday, January 21, 2010 - 04:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Did I mention that foreign companies are included in this wonderful plan? Hope ya like Chinese food guys!!
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Rocketsprink
Posted on Thursday, January 21, 2010 - 04:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

And it has MORE to do with unlimited money to candidates than it does with free speech!
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Milt
Posted on Thursday, January 21, 2010 - 05:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Rocketsprink,

To be fair, both parties are corporatist. The Democrats, for the most part, almost always go along with the big corporations. Very few have any backbone at all.

The problem doesn't lie with the evil corporations. They're just going about their legal business, doing what's best for them, just like everybody else. Nor does it lie with other special interests (unions, veterans, loggers, bankers, teachers, cattle ranchers, firemen, handicapped people, cancer patients...) .

It lies with the politicians, who value power more than service.

Again, the definition of a "special interest" is an interest that the speaker does not agree with.
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Cityxslicker
Posted on Thursday, January 21, 2010 - 05:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Any finance reform that is not tied to term limits is worthless.
Why do we have an amendment for presidental term limits, but not senate/congress?

Really, Fresh meat in say 3 terms, 4th term you are out. (make those corps spend that money down the rabbit hole)
PS I got a nice not from the Dems in my state thanking me for their support.... I send them a note back thanking them for vacating their office in November, at least that will be my vote.
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Johnnymceldoo
Posted on Thursday, January 21, 2010 - 05:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I can see in some instances where this could hurt citizens but overall big businesses get to be that way because people like their products. If most people like your products or services and the gov wants to hurt a corp or business it would be a good idea to appeal to the people with advertising and campaigning.

The hypocrats in this thread crying about this ruling will not bring up this administrations use of the national endowment for the arts for pushing their agenda....paid for by us. Luckily they were caught in the act.

You hypocrats carry on with your belly aching which is only camouflaging the buyers remorse you have for a man in the back pockets of big banks, wallstreet and pharma. Mike Gravel tried to warn you in the primaries.
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Madduck
Posted on Thursday, January 21, 2010 - 05:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I might care about the outrage from the left and dems if Obama hadn't tried to reward his union backers with a 60 Billion tax break in his health plan. When politicians pay off their big supporters we all lose. Make what Obama did a felony and throw his butt in prison and I will care more about your opinion.
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Nevrenuf
Posted on Thursday, January 21, 2010 - 05:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

they should have the same term limits as the potus and not a day longer. hopefully special interest wouldn't have anytime to make a difference and it would allow the people that just want to make a difference a chance to do just that i would think. and keep the dead beats away from doing damage.
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Edgydrifter
Posted on Thursday, January 21, 2010 - 07:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Weren't 12-year term limits in the '94 Contract With America? I do believe several signers to that document are still in the House and Senate. Funny how the halls of power can cloud a person's memory. Must be something in the air there.
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Strokizator
Posted on Thursday, January 21, 2010 - 07:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Take a look at how much money is spent by evil corporations vs labor unions. Corporations tend to divide their money on both sides so they can be seen as good guys by whomever is in office.

Unions spend a lot of money of "public information" where they characterize themselves as concerned benevolent organizations while pushing their own agenda.

The teacher's union and prison guard union in California have run this state into bankruptcy. Any attempts at reforms through the initiative process have been met by an onslaught of misinformation and scare tactics. They handed Arnold's ass to him a few years ago and he's been a whipped puppy ever since.
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Aesquire
Posted on Thursday, January 21, 2010 - 07:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Am I wrong, or does this have nothing to do with actual contributions to politicians, ( bribes ) but only to advertising by non profit & for profit companies, unions & citizen groups?

Now If I understand it, ( from NPR, tonight ) what was overturned in McCain -Fiengold was the unconstitutional part, the violation of free speech rights for specific groups. That bad law meant that, say, Planned Parenthood was forbidden to place a tv ad saying "Jeb Bush will vote to hurt womens reproductive rights" and let a group like, say, Swift Boat Veterans For Truth place ads that knocked Kerry, who served in Vietnam. ( and was treasonous in France, but that's a different story )

In any event, it was BAD law. Now Congress has to go back & write a new one.

I do have issues with a company being a person. I think a lot of problems we have come from that concept, for example, the con that companies pay taxes. They don't. They just raise prices or cut wages ( both, usually ) and pass on the tax to the only real source of money a govt. has. Us. ( never mind the "print money" con, they are just borrowing it...and we get to pay it back.. how sweet. )
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Aesquire
Posted on Thursday, January 21, 2010 - 07:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Must be something in the air there
Yeah, amazing how some went from idealists to typical in just a few years.
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Sifo
Posted on Thursday, January 21, 2010 - 07:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Like the current system was working well. BO took in record amounts in small donations. He said that this was all going to be open to public scrutiny. Suddenly it became secret, never to be seen by anybody. It's anybodies guess where these donations came from but I doubt it really came from the poor folk that can't afford health insurance. Does anyone really believe that BO raised that much cash from individuals? I have serious doubts. We will never know for certain though because this was the very first campaign promise that BO broke, even before the election.
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Court
Posted on Thursday, January 21, 2010 - 08:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Boy . . . I've got to agree with Hootowl and Madduck.

Corporations, if they are prohibited from giving, would find a way. It would be easy to figure out how, they could learn from the unions who contribute much more than major corporations and have developed sophisticated ways of hiding it . . . not only from the public and regulators, but more importantly from their members.






quote:

Union Scam
Let's have full disclosure of union finances.
By Mr. Robert P. Hunter | Aug. 27, 2001

This article originally appeared in the National Review on August 22, 2001 at http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-hunt er082201.shtml.

By Robert Hunter & Shawn Miller. Robert Hunter, a member of the National Labor Relations Board under President Ronald Reagan, is director of labor policy with the Mackinac Center for Public Policy . Shawn Miller is a summer research intern with the Mackinac Center.

Have you heard the one about the union that spent none of its members' dues on political campaigns and lobbying?

Neither had most people — until last week, when the Associated Press reported on several major unions' practice of reporting zero political expenses to the IRS. No unions were identified by name in the report, but a recent tax complaint, filed by the Landmark Legal Foundation, has drawn attention to the big-spending National Education Association's claim that it has made no political expenditures since 1994.

Such patent absurdities may satisfy IRS bureaucrats, but rank-and-file workers who are forced to underwrite the frenetic activities of Big Labor know better. For their sake, Congress and the Department of Labor should strengthen federal reporting requirements for unions, thereby allowing workers the chance to take back some of their hard-earned dollars from ravenous union officials.

Unions collect an estimated $13 billion in dues each year to fund their various efforts. How much of that $13 billion is spent on collective bargaining and other core employee-representation duties and how much goes to lobbying and other peripheral activities? Since unions are not required to make any meaningful disclosures of their political expenditures, it's impossible to say.

However, in two cases where the U.S. Supreme Court examined union finances, Lehnert v. Ferris Faculty Association and Communications Workers v. Beck, it found that 90 percent and 79 percent, respectively, of union dues paid had nothing to with employee representation and everything to do with advancing the unions' political and social agenda.

Unions certainly have the right to participate in the political process, but with that right comes a responsibility: The Court ruled in both cases that unions must respect the rights of workers to know how much of their dues are being spent on politicking — and to opt out of paying for that politicking.

Despite the Supreme Court decisions, workers have had a tough time finding out just how much of their dues dollars go to fund activities unrelated to collective bargaining, and many have even suffered union retaliation just for attempting to assert their rights. The government is of little help: The Department of Labor — apparently as uncurious as the IRS — does not require unions to disclose or report any of their political spending or activity beyond a yes-or-no answer as to whether or not a given union has a political action committee fund.

In other words, the political spending of most unions — including public-sector unions like the NEA — goes largely unreported not just to the taxman but to union members and the public at large.

Now let's imagine a slightly different scenario. What if a publicly traded, billion-dollar corporation refused to supply investors with a prospectus or annual report of its financial dealings?

Such a company would not be long for this world. It would run afoul of the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC), to say nothing of failing to attract investors, and go belly up in short order.

It's long past time to treat unions as we treat corporations and require them to make meaningful disclosures of their political and other expenditures to the general public and to their dues-paying "investors."

Lawmakers should pass legislation to require annual disclosure of union financial dealings, reported through an independent, third-party auditor, using uniform accounting standards. Union disclosure, similar to SEC regulations governing corporate disclosure, should include breakdowns of a) assets and liabilities; b) salaries paid to officials and support staff; c) contributions to state or national affiliates; d) funding for organizing activities, contract negotiations, and other collective bargaining related activities; and e) funding for any political or lobbying activities, with detailed listing of candidates, organizations, political parties, or other entities receiving union dues money.

Being a member of a union is not like being a member of, for example, the Rotary Club, where individuals voluntarily join because of the values promoted by the organization. Unionization in the 21 states that lack a right-to-work law often involves at least a mandatory dues payment as a condition of employment.

If union leaders believe the political, social, and lobbying activities they are engaged in ultimately serve the interests of union workers and the labor movement as a whole, they should make that case before their members. If workers still disagree, unions should be willing to comply with the law as it stands and refund to members that portion of dues used to subsidize the union's non-workplace-related agenda.

It's unclear whether the unions' failure to report political expenditures to the IRS will trigger any government action. But if investors can voluntarily choose firms to invest in based in part upon financial information the law requires corporations to provide, shouldn't union workers be allowed the chance to choose how much money — if any — they wish to "invest" in their union's political agenda?




I would be easy to convince that there should be limits on ALL contributions. We have entered the age of the mega campaign. I served as Chairman of the Associated General Contractors Political Action Committee (AGCPAC) years ago and the things we did were absurd.

In addition unions, and I suspect (though I have no facts on this) that unions are more likely, as we did, to spread but money on both sides . . friends and foe in order to be in the good graces of whoever wins. We used to give obscene sums to assholes to ensure post election "access" if they won.

I have a GREAT story about this that I may have to share. I used to feel kind of bad about something I did in 1987 but I'm getting over it in my old age. But I am well aware how money and "persuasion" can CHANGE a billion dollar piece of legislation . . in this case a highway funding bill.

HINT: If you are going to get arrested with a hooker make certain no one knows. : ) I realize that these days about all of them do though . .
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Blake
Posted on Thursday, January 21, 2010 - 08:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Rocco,

Do you also accept the following version of your pronouncement?

Sweet. Now unions & corporations & special interest groups can money bomb a candidate, thus own the candidate with the "I made you and I can break you" mentality. THAT"S HOW THEY DICTATE LEGISLATION BY USING THE POLITICIAN THEY OWN.
Corporations & unions & special interest groups ARE NOT INDIVIDUALS. Why is that so hard to understand?

You were for "card check"?

No undue influence on politicians there?
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Blake
Posted on Thursday, January 21, 2010 - 08:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I applaud the ruling because it eliminates a gross unfairness and allows the non-union folks a voice as strong as the unions'.
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Alchemy
Posted on Thursday, January 21, 2010 - 10:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

No problem with correcting unfairness.

But that still does not make a corporation a human being.

A corporation is a legal construct nothing more. Mixing up the rights of human beings with that of legal constructs is a sign of sloppy thinking on the court. This is obvious to them and they know what will happen next.
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Hex
Posted on Thursday, January 21, 2010 - 10:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

This is obvious to them and they know what will happen next.

If you get a chance, can you expand upon your last statement? I'm interested.
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Swampy
Posted on Thursday, January 21, 2010 - 11:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Corporations(escuse me, I have had a rough day and needed some adult beverages to get me settled) are considered by the the Maritime Court system(when you go to court you will see a gold fringed flag, thus meaning maritime law) to be a ficticious individual created by the process of applying for the existance of the corporate ficticious individual and the granting of the existance of the ficticious individual by the "State" Hence the "Corporate Papers" or "birth papers" of the ficticious individual. This ficticious individual is concidered or can be thought of as "incapacitated" with no ability to make decisions by its own self and needs a board to represent it to make the necessary decisions for the corporations survival.

We as individuals are all granted existance from the "State" with birth documents. Without these documents, you DO NOT exist. Try it some day, I was just assulted today(very minor) and the person did not have I.D.(no identification) and because of that, nothing was done.

So when you go to court(not to Court) you are sworn in and if you do not have a Pennyfogger to re-present or represent you you are asked if you are waiving your right to representation, which is incorrect because you cannot(or at least should never) waive any right, as it is a right and by its own definition is impossible to be waived. Then you will be asked if you are re-presenting(or representing) yourself, which is impossible to represent yourself as you are yourself, and you are there on your own behalf.
So I told you all that to explain that the corporations are in existance for their own interests and as a "Special" class of ficticious individual they recieve special rights that give them advantage to the individuals that were granted existance from the state by way of a "Birth Certificate" The corporate individual is a special interest group requiring special rights to give it advantage over birth certificate individuals. Now, birth certificate individuals are considered corporations just like the created ficticious individuals. When you go to court you are considered a corporation and you the living being that shows its presence is a representative of that corporation. This is all done for the wellbeing and sustinance of the Barrister class of individuals called Barristers, pennyfoggers, pettifoggers, attorneys and lawyers, who will bleed every available penny from your corporate existance only to become indignant when you question their performance.

Anyways, I told you all that, to tell you this, Lawyers, pennyfoggers, pettifoggers and attornys never have your best interest in mind and only exist to obfuscate the obvious and pervert and derail justice.

If you want to see a representation of what true American court system should be watch the old John Wayne classic, "Allegany Uprising"

Drop Your weapon!

You know what I mean?
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