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Xb12xmike
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 06, 2010 - 04:37 pm: | 
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Ceasar Milans' show still bores me. After seeing many of his shows,...I just don't like the guy. There is more than one way to achieve the same or similar results. Different situations for different Circumstances, none of the advice from either person is totally wrong. Geeze I wonder what the doggy world was like without him. Poor poochies,... it must have been terrible. |
Spatten1
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 06, 2010 - 04:41 pm: |
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I think Caesar's message is important for many people. Many people just don't get that dogs are not cute fuzzy dumb people. They are pack animals that need heirchy and discipline, as well as love and reward. |
Bads1
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 06, 2010 - 04:42 pm: |
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Hey Blake,
What does he show or tell people to do as far as peck order??? That has not been shown as far as I've seen on his show. A dog needs its leader. But a dog also wants to lead. So when I say Peck order I mean a dog can and will in many instances find the weak one of the family to either Dominate or not listen to. The Pack leader may not always be there. I think Caesar is great but there are times when I have seen that he can't show you something. I watch his show but I do not rely on it.
(Message edited by bads1 on January 06, 2010) |
Spatten1
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 06, 2010 - 05:00 pm: |
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Bads1: He does use his Pitbull as the dominant dog very often. He calls it "Daddy" I think. It is very mellow, but also extremely confident and seems to always be instantly in charge of any group of dogs Caesar puts him with. Super Alpa. I guess with another big-time alpha, things might get a little testier. |
Bads1
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 06, 2010 - 05:06 pm: |
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Thats not what I'm talking about. Not other dogs. Peck order in your family. As in your wife,son,and Daughter.Like lets say you have a daughter. Shes 7 years old. Shes not a authority figure. You can't always be there. A dog will be a dog.The tries to fill the vacant role.... the words of Caesar. |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 06, 2010 - 05:18 pm: |
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Dana,
Cesar teaches that canines should behave submissively wrt to ALL family members.
"I think Caesar is great but there are times when I have seen that he can't show you something."
I'm not sure what you mean. I've never seen him not resolve an issue with any problem dog he's decided to tackle.
ALL members of the family must learn to behave as pack leaders. It is up to the adults in charge to help reinforce that for the dog(s). Cesar demonstrated how even a toddler can be elevated to dominant status. He simply taught the dog that the baby was off-limits. If a dog is misbehaving wrt anyone in their human's presence, the onus is on the human to object to and correct the misbehavior. Cesar also advises that canine family pets be neutered. That takes the breeding/sex drive issues out of the equation.
The following may apply in your case:
http://cesarsway.com/askcesar/aggression/How-To-Ra ise-A-Balanced-Pit-Bull
That and making sure your canine family members are well exercised in a disciplined format. True, some dogs require more exercise than others, but they all require some. |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 06, 2010 - 05:34 pm: |
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To clarify, the problems that Cesar tackles are always a result of problematic behaviors by humans who want to treat their canine(s) like babies or fellow humans. If you imagine for one second that it is the dog that is the problem, you'll be unable to find a solution to the particular issue. It's always a lack of leadership or lack of exercise and discipline, discipline meaning structured formal behavior, not punishment. Cesar never uses punishment. He does use what he calls his "bite" which is really just a firm poke with the fingers, just firm enough to get the dog's attention and change their frame of mind, to de-escalate their state of energy.
Taking cues from Cesar, the results are truly amazing. People who have misbehaving dogs are amazed at how their troublesome pet somehow respects a stranger, but not them. The "no touch, no talk, no eye contact" coupled with calm assertive energy really works what seems like miracles.
When it comes to objecting to bad behavior, never become emotional, never yell at the dog, remain calm, but assertive. It really works.
I was on a walk through the neighborhood once with Michele and some friends including some small children. A neighbor's full grown male German Shepherd got away from his owner and charging at us. The owner was yelling at his dog. The dog completely ignored him running onto the street towards us.
I stepped resolutely towards the approaching threat and growled out "go away". The dog stopped in his tracks, turned and retreated back to his yard and sat down. The owner was momentarily speechless. This happened a long time ago, before I ever heard of Cesar Milan, but it jives exactly with what he teaches. That German Shepard wasn't used to seeing a human in a leadership role. When he finally did, he was totally cool with it. |
Hex
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 06, 2010 - 05:38 pm: |
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Great stuff here Blake.
Titan is not my first dog, but there is always room for improvement.
I have always enjoyed the Dog Whisperer aka Caesar.
I'm going to follow up with your links and our learning to become a better pack. Thank you.
Hex |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 06, 2010 - 05:44 pm: |
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"She's 7 years old. She's not an authority figure."
She absolutely must be when it comes to the family canines. You can teach her to be an authority figure to the dog. Cesar had an episode where a family's giant poodle ran rough-shod over the kids, jumping and bowling them over with excitement. He taught the children to remain calm and assertive and to claim their space. Within a very short time-span, the big poodle learned to be perfectly calm and well-behaved around the little folks.
Question: How do we know that our dogs view us as pack leader? |
Bads1
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 06, 2010 - 06:02 pm: |
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ALL members of the family must learn to behave as pack leaders
You cannot teach a child to be a pack leader though Blake. And you cannot always be where your gog and child are in a room or outside. A dog can be taught to respect the pack leaders but there is always a weak link in the peck order. A dog can sense that. Caesar is great but there are situations that he cannot apply. I treat my dog's with love and effection. I get it returned ten fold as do my children. Bring up my dogs I had to teach my kids to lead them yes. But when my kids were younger the dogs tended not to listen. Kids at a young age don't understand Authority. Most dogs that are highly socialized are great animal's. The ones that are not have stronger tendency to try to be aggresive over as you say lead the pack. Whether its jumping on people or worse. |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 06, 2010 - 06:04 pm: |
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Hex,
That is one gorgeous canine.
It brings back very frustratingly sad memories for me. A neighbor of ours owns/owned one very much like your Titan; it had golden eyes with a wolfish slant to them. We used to love stopping to visit on our walks; the magnificent animal was woefully neglected, chained up in a dirty little area of their back yard. It was a gift to us and hopefully to him that he at least was able to get paws up on their chain link fence nearest the street. Standing up on hind legs, front paws on fence railing, he could look me straight in the eyes.
He was a very large dog! But he had the character to match his magnificent appearance. Nothing but a pure gentleman and affectionate friend every time we met. His abusive captivity, on a short chain in a small patch of dirt was tough to take. One time his wide nylon collar (PLEASE don't use those on any dog) had become so tight that he had developed blisters and raw skin underneath. We managed to loosen it for him. Nothing we could do legally. We darn near dognapped him.
I genuinely tried to befriend the owner and his family, single father of three still living with his mother. I even offered the owner $1,000, then when that was refused I offered to take him on walks. We were in between canine companions at the time. But there was nothing but indignant refusal and baloney excuses from the dog's owner. In one friendly conversation, his mother actually retorted that I would be unable to hold onto the dog for a walk.
Trashy ignorant people SUCK! Our hearts broke for that magnificent animal. They eventually put up a privacy fence, that prevents any view of their backyard let alone access to greet the dog. I may go for another visit to see how they are doing. The dog would be in his latter years by now. I fear he's likely dead.
Irony is that the owner claims to have "rescued" the dog as a puppy. |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 06, 2010 - 06:22 pm: |
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Dana,
What exactly is the issue that you would like to be able to address with your dogs?
"You cannot teach a child to be a pack leader"
I cannot disagree more strongly.
"A dog can be taught to respect the pack leaders"
There is no need for any "teaching" whatsoever when it comes to leadership over a dog. Dogs respect leaders, period. The human(s) must simply be a leader as far as the dog is concerned. That's it.
Dana, there are plenty of highly socialized dogs that are very poorly behaving dogs. I do agree that socializing is important for dogs, so that they are used to coming in contact with strangers and other dogs, but socializing is not the answer to achieving leadership and the respect and good behavior of our dogs.
The key to a well-behaved dog is leadership 100% of the time (rules, boundaries, and limitations) reinforced with disciplined exercise, meaning exercise for the brain and the body and then and only then, affection.
Never apply affection to a dog that is acting excited or unstable. Doing so reinforces the state of mind and/or behavior.
Here's a good example. If you want to teach a dog to be afraid of thunder, simply act concerned and be affectionate to the dog any time the dog responds to thunder. That dog will soon be trying to crawl inside your skin whenever he/she hears thunder.
Leadership never rewards poor behavior, only good behavior.
(Message edited by blake on January 06, 2010) |
Bads1
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 06, 2010 - 06:34 pm: |
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Blake will just have agree to disagree. I raised to great kids that are honor children. I have zero issue's with my dogs. They are both highly trained and well mannered. They sometimes have to deal with drunk's at my bar. Not only that I have two dogs that are rare breed dogs that I can be proud to say are 2 of the possible 12 total in my State. SABT and the breeder of my animal's screened me for 30 days before approval of my first one. I'm not a Casaer but nobody can. But I am good with what I do with my animal's. Until you have raised children you cannot say that you can teach them Authority when you are trying to raise them to be upstanding young adults one day. My kids authority came as they became tween's (11-12yrs) with my dogs. Prior to that they just didn't have it yet. Not every breed is for everyones life style or there dwelling. That can also effect how a dogs emotions are. |
Bads1
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 06, 2010 - 06:39 pm: |
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Here's a good example. If you want to teach a dog to be afraid of thunder, simply act concerned and be affectionate to the dog any time the dog responds to thunder. That dog will soon be trying to crawl inside your skin whenever he/she hears thunder.
I can honestly say I could cuddle with my dogs and talk baby talk to them and it wouln't faze them. |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 06, 2010 - 10:31 pm: |
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Disagreeing is okay with me. Dana, I sure never meant to imply that you've done anything other than a stellar job parenting your children. If you didn't, I know for a fact that Andrea would have set you straight in short order. 
I wish you could see Cesar teaching small kiddos to be leaders in the eyes of the family canine. If I hadn't seen it done, I probably wouldn't believe it either.
When you say "teach kids authority", when it comes to the canine leadership issue, I don't see it that way wrt the family dog(s). We're not talking about a child commanding a dog in obedience trials, just a child who has the respect and deference of the dog, that's all.
On cuddling not affecting your canine buddies. You skipped the prerequisites, "the dog responds to thunder" and you "act concerned". Absent those, there is no issue. |
U4euh
| | Posted on Thursday, January 07, 2010 - 12:37 am: |
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For the most part I agree with what Milan says, except, from his book and a few times on his show he states that dogs do not have a personality. I say BS |
Hex
| | Posted on Thursday, January 07, 2010 - 01:39 am: |
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All sentient beings have a personality. The onus is yours to recognize it or not. |
Hex
| | Posted on Thursday, January 07, 2010 - 02:48 am: |
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Caesar's probably a Catholic, hence only Humans have personalities and souls. It's his choice and it's his show.
I'll consider what I need from what he has to offer, form my own opinions, and disregard the rest. |
Xb12xmike
| | Posted on Thursday, January 07, 2010 - 04:12 am: |
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Wow man, I am Roman catholic and never heard of that before. I guess you learn something new everyday. |
Xb12xmike
| | Posted on Thursday, January 07, 2010 - 04:15 am: |
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I guess that means I am not a very good one. |
Xb12xmike
| | Posted on Thursday, January 07, 2010 - 01:24 pm: |
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I didn't mean to change the topic or stop it dead, but I was at the least alittle annoyed, (about bringing religion into the thread) but its not a big deal. (sorry hex)
I did find some pretty cool info because of it... Do animals have a soul??
thanks Hex!! |
Hex
| | Posted on Thursday, January 07, 2010 - 01:38 pm: |
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cool Mike,
I sent you a PM earlier, check your e-mail.
I've thought more about it as well. I decided that it takes an individual to recognize an individual. But just because two individuals recognize each other does it prove individuality, personality, and soul exist?
Just because Ceasar doesn't mention the origin of his teachings, doesn't mean that HE isn't putting religious beliefs in HIS show.
It would be an interesting experiment to take twenty people out to a field, one of which is the test dog's "owner". Put the dog in a remotely opened crate, have the people randomly about motionless and expressionless, and let the dog out of the crate and see if he could find his owner.
I predict the dog would find owner every time. |
Hex
| | Posted on Thursday, January 07, 2010 - 02:46 pm: |
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentience
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentient_beings_%28Bu ddhism%29
I've always struggled with this one. I was a vegetarian for many years because of it as well.
I decided that if it has eyeballs, it has a unique and precious perspective of our Universe, worthy at lease of my sincere gratitude for it's individuality. Now when I eat animals, I take a moment to honor the meal, nobody knows what I am thinking just before the meal. That goes for shrimp too! Silly me.
This is also why when I fish, I practice fly fishing with diligent and careful catch and release techniques, and if I'm out in the wild for a few days, I will treat my party to maybe a couple fish, but I will insist a moment of consideration for each of the catch. |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, January 08, 2010 - 03:01 pm: |
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Bagging on Catholics and injecting religion in a dog thread? WTF? That is WAY out of line, arrogant, and just plain rude.
I've never heard Cesar say that dogs have no personalities. If he did, I expect he didn't mean it as some here are interpreting. In fact he often refers to the energy level of dogs. I take that as equivalent to personality. But it makes zero difference to me either way. The bottom line is that Cesar Milan never ever mistreats animals and has saved many from premature death by educating their humans on how to properly lead their pack. His success and innate understanding of the animals is truly remarkable. Astounding really.
(Message edited by blake on January 08, 2010) |
Blake
| | Posted on Sunday, February 07, 2010 - 09:49 am: |
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Jim,
I just received the following via email from Mr. Milan:
quote:Greetings,
There's no doubt in my mind that dogs have emotions. They feel joy after a job well done. They feel sad when a pack member passes away. And they feel love for their family members - their pack. However, it's important to remember that those emotions are different from our own. The feelings that dogs experience aren't connected to complex thoughts. They don't have ulterior motives or doubt. Their emotions are pure and honest. Your dog isn't lying to you when he communicates that he loves you.
Cesar Milan
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Blake
| | Posted on Sunday, February 07, 2010 - 09:53 am: |
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Some interesting stuff: The Science of Canine Behavior |
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