| Author | Message | ||
     Rfischer |
An interesting bit of statistical trivia recently published.....MV managed to sell a measly 700 units in its Motherland for '08. Even the line of tractors from Guzzi [sorry - I know there are a lot of Guzzi fans out there, but the truth hurts] managed 1200 bikes for the year. As for Ducati, as you would imagine they are the 800 lb. gorilla in the domestic market with a complete line of desirable products. Doesn't take a marketing genius to understand that MV can never be a viable manufacturer with its present business model. Nor does it take the business equivalent of a rocket scientist to figure out that H-D's purchase of the company, even tho' only an assumption of debt [no cash changed hands], was moronic. Once again, Claudio Castiglonni managed to sell THE pig-in-a-poke to a gullible wannabe. Now, THERE's a marketing genius for the ages. | ||
| Swordsman |
Sounds like instead of buying from him, they should have hired him! ~SM | ||
| Court |
Better be careful using the term "rocket scientist". I was admonished. Turns out it's an Oxy-Moron. We're all eagerly waiting as investors race to snatch MV up. HD washed their hands of it and dumped it on an Italian broker hoping they can move it based on national allegiance. We'll see. | ||
| Buell920 |
Umph, I thought the purchase was to "walk around" manufacturing laws. with the purchase of MV they have intern become a producer of motorcycles there, which allows them to expand, to say, build HD's over seas. they have been and continue to focus on the international market. this would have allowed them to produce bike elsewhere without all the permits and stuff that comes with setting up a production plant. Honda, Yamaha,.....all have found it much cheaper to make the stuff here then try and ship it in. | ||
| Rfischer |
Wellll....while I certainly was not privy to H-D board discussions regarding the acquisition, I was a party to the Euro side of Cagiva's financial woes leading to the divestiture of Husqvarna and MV. The H-D plan was pretty simple - take on the debt and gain a storied brand and established dealer network. However, it would seem that due diligence was sorely lacking [obfuscation is a Castiglonni specialty]. In the case of the BMW purchase of Husky, the Motorrad board twice delayed the closing while they went back for "more information". And the deal was modified in the result. I was "there" for those deliberations. However, in the spirit of full disclosure, there was a 3rd party to the Husky deal...HVA in Sweden, which still owns the brand; it was/is only on license. BMW, in its wonderfully Teutonic fashion, didn't think they should have to pay for the brand license. Moreover, they wanted the right to use the brand for all power sports products [seen the pics of the BMW ATV?]. Sweden demurred. Actually, told the Germans to 'stuff it'. In the end, they paid for and got a license for the bikes only. Seems the Germans were a good deal more clever than our fellow Americans, tho' it's still an open question whether they can make money with Husqvarna. At least the brand has a solid presence in the U.S. market, unlike MV. | ||
| Gohot |
I know my experiance in the HD showrooms with other customers, with 'tudes'. I remember once at the HD store Quade's where I was giving the current Buell a close look-over, it was obvious I was interested and ready to talk $'s. A couple of grizzeled,(one more so than the other) bastiages stood there where I was, one said to the other "you like these?", and the other said, I wouldn't fu_ _'n ride one of those pieces of $hi_!. It was a comment meant for ME personally, and it was all I could do not to confront and fire up the old ignorant duff. But I blew it off as just another (gene pool needs chlorene)episode from a Barko'loung rider, you know the type!! So anyway that brings me to my opinion about MV and HD. I just don't think that MV Agusta would of drawn customers into a Harley Davidson Store.......to many un-desireables for their (MV) taste, or simple intimidation (perceived) of Harley riders. After all the people who ride Ducati's, Aprilla's, and MV's typically are the Wicked of the eletists, the lesser civilized ones of means. never the less leagues away from the riff-raff known as leather wearing Harley ruffians, clearly un-cultured barbarians. You see the contrast that would exist in the stores trying to offer both of these opposite lifestyle enclined groups.... | ||
| Rfischer |
H-D never intended to put MV on Harley dealer floors. Ever. | ||
| Trojan |
from another web site: VW have been negotiating to buy up to 50% of Ducati and it seems likely this sale may proceed. Previously the Fiat Group were also negotiating to buy in to Ducati, however the existing owners tried to cap the sale to Fiat at not more than 20%. On that basis Fiat did not proceed. However, on the basis Ducati could potentially sell 50%, Fiat have again started negotiating with Ducati to take over up to 50% of the company. Fiat own 56% of Ferrari, and would provide a close direct link between Ducati and Ferrari. With the existing link between Rossi and Fiat / Ferrari, could that be the link for Rossi to go to Ducati in 2011. Fiat have also been negotiating to take over 100% MV Agusta and Cagiva from Harley Davison with plans for big investment in the company to increase world sales. Could this mean Agusta returning to MotoGP or WSBK, and could Rossi be tempted to front a new MotoGP program with MV Agusta (and follow the footsteps of Ago). If Fiat does buy into Ducati or Agusta, would that be the end of sponsorship of the Yamaha factory team. Fiat are effectively paying Rossi now, so surely they would have a big influence on where he goes. MV have spent the majority of 2009 restructuring and developing the new models (with significant investment from H-D), so just to state sales figures without any background info is a little misleading. At the moment it may well be that MV will be in a stronger financial position than H-D before very long  It has also been reported that Giacomo Agostini has been approached to front a new Moto2 team under the Cagiva banner. The plot thickens........ | ||
| Rfischer |
Ah...hate to throw a spanner into the spokes of this particular piece of speculative fluff, but Fiat can negotiate nothing with Ducati. Ducati is 100% owned by the Ontario Teachers Union Pension Fund. The Fund upped its minority stake to full ownership last year. And you've floated that "....stronger financial position than H-D" canard before. It was nonsense then and remains so now. | ||
| 4cammer |
"Ducati is 100% owned by the Ontario Teachers Union Pension Fund. The Fund upped its minority stake to full ownership last year. " I had to read that three times to make sure I was reading it correctly. This is one strange world. | ||
| Trojan |
Maybe Fiat are negotiating directly with the OTUPF..who knows? Ducati ownership seems to change so often that probably have a dedicated 'regime change' office at the factory. As for H-D's financial position....I don't think that I have mentioned it before, but even so I wouldn't want to bet my house on H-D right now that's for sure. | ||
| Rocketman |
(Message edited by rocketman on December 05, 2009) | ||
| Rocketman |
HD washed their hands of it and dumped it on an Italian broker hoping they can move it based on national allegiance. BNP Paribas are just a bit more than that, being one of the worlds six strongest banks. Rocket | ||
| Rocketman |
hoping they can move it based on national allegiance. You mean similar to the efforts you've been championing to fellow Americans with your letter writing campaign to save Buell? Rocket | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
As far as I'm aware, (unless I'm behind the times) Invest Industrial is still the majority shareholder in Ducati with 84.7%. I may be wrong but as of June last year when they upped their stake that was the case. | ||
| Gregtonn |
".....MV managed to sell a measly 700 units in its Motherland for '08." "MV have spent the majority of 2009 restructuring and developing the new models (with significant investment from H-D), so just to state sales figures without any background info is a little misleading." Matt, Note that the sales figures listed were for 2008. What occurred in 2009 had no effect on them. G | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
"You mean similar to the efforts you've been championing to fellow Americans with your letter writing campaign to save Buell?" No, not even close. Buell is dead trying to be revived by owners and enthusiasts loyalties. MV is alive and needing a buyer, where's their enthusiasts' and owner's letter writing campaigns? | ||
| Rocketman |
No, not even close. Buell is dead trying to be revived by owners and enthusiasts loyalties. MV is alive and needing a buyer, where's their enthusiasts' and owner's letter writing campaigns? It's ok. I'm British. I wouldn't expect you to understand I'm being provoked by someone here. Rocket (Message edited by rocketman on December 05, 2009) | ||
| Rocketman |
Ducati is 100% owned by the Ontario Teachers Union Pension Fund. The Fund upped its minority stake to full ownership last year. Wrong. Performance Motorcycles is an investment group formed of three of Ducati’s main shareholders, Investindustrial, BS Investimenti and Hospitals of Ontario Pension Plan. The group made its initial offer to absorb Ducati in May 2008 when it held a 29.9% share of the Italian OEM. In June, Performance held an 84.7% share and on Aug. 22, Performance reached a share capital equal to about 92.75% of Ducati. Investindustrial BS Investimenti HOOPP Rocket | ||
| Rocketman |
Ducati is the leading European manufacturer and distributor in the niche of high-performance sport motorcycles with a 5.5% market share in the sport segment of the high displacement road market (greater than 500 cc). Ducati is based in Bologna and has commercial subsidiaries in the United States, the United Kingdom, France, Germany, Belgium and Japan. Ducati's manufacturing operations, based in Bologna (Italy), primarily consist of engine and motorcycle assembly. In addition to motorbikes the company sells spare parts, accessories and apparel. In 2007, Ducati won the "MotoGP" World Championship in all categories (manufacturers, riders and teams). Ducati competes in the "Superbike" World Championship as well. In 2008, Ducati reported consolidated sales of approximately €470 m. The deal was completed in 2006, as a management buy-out of the publicly traded company, with BS Investimenti IV and BS Private Equity co-investing alongside the Italian private equity firm InvestIndustrial and the Canadian pension fund Hospital of Ontario Pension Plan. The consortium initially acquired a 30% less one share from the US-based private equity firm Texas Pacific Group, then launched a voluntary tender offer acquiring 100% of the shares. The investment rationale is to turn-around the company leveraging on the strong brand in Italy and abroad. Rocket | ||
| Swordsman |
Man, Fiat's gone into a buying frenzy, haven't they? Didn't they just buy a chunk of Dodge/Chrysler as well? ~SM | ||
| Cityxslicker |
It would have been so killer to have Buell get ahold of the Cagiva dirt platform, before it left to Husky, before it fled to BMW and before it got a 5k price increse just because of the label. |
