| Author | Message | ||
     Drkside79 |
Oh and by the way thanks for being an ass. You knew I meant Pearl Harbor. | ||
| Reindog |
We were not attacked by a county we were attacked by an organization I agree that we were not attacked by a county. A Jihad was declared against America and that made 9-11 an act of war. It is really pretty simple to understand that this is not a criminal matter. | ||
| Reindog |
You are just pointing out your level of education. Nice to see you having to resort to calling a person an "ass". You lose. | ||
| Xb12xmike |
When/if the healthcare bill passes... will it include these terrorists? Or do they already have it automatically?? Just curious. | ||
| Nevrenuf |
i know they got better than me. i have to wait a month and a half to get an appointment through the va. and this national healthcare is supposed to work how??? | ||
| Reepicheep |
Unfortunately, large organizations don't have to be recognized as formal nations before they have the capability to wage war on us. So I'm not going to get hung up on that bit before I decide how to defend ourselves. And while I am not a lawyer, I think the Geneva convention *does* explicit cover terrorist actions... it says that if you want to be protected by the Geneva conventions, here are the "fight fair" rules you have to follow (many of which are tactical disadvantages, but that help protect civilians and try and keep war as humane as possible). If you don't follow those rules, the Geneva convention says the protections of the Geneva conventions are not required. So not only do terrorists not have the US Constitutional protections that the current administration wants to give them, they don't even have the Geneva convention rights. The fact that we offer them a military tribunal at all means we are already going above and beyond what is required. You should read what we can do to spies... (military spies, not the motorcycle racer  ) | ||
| Reindog |
Can someone explain to me how the statements of the POTUS and his befuddled AG that KSM will be convicted and executed, does not taint the jury pool of NYC and EVERY American courtroom? Can someone explain to me how KSM will continue to be incarcerated in the event that the jury acquits the defendant of all charges? The befuddled AG claims that he will continue to be incarcerated. How is that possible without abrogating the US Constitution? Can someone explain to me why anyone voted for this moron who is destroying our country? Just curious. | ||
| Court |
>>>>The crime they are accused of was not committed in a war setting That's inaccurate. The destruction of the World Trade Center was an act of war in the same conflict that took a record number of United States Service personnel in Afghanistan last month. Using your logic Pearl Harbor was not part of the WWII theatre and the Japanese soldiers who bombed Hawaii, had they been captured, would be tried in a civilian court. Not even a credible argument for that scenario. | ||
| Hootowl |
The Japanese, to their credit, did not target civilians to any great degree during the attack on Pearl Harbor, so the airmen who did the bombing would not have been arrested for war crimes had they been captured. They simply would have been POWs. The people (and I use the term loosely) who killed 3000 civilians on 9/11 are war criminals. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
we were not at war with Japan until Pearl Harbor either. They are terrorists, the should be hung, shot, executed, by the lines of the appropriate Geneva convention. The only reason they werent, is because we thought they had actionable intelligence that would give us an insite into future missions. They are Detainees, NOT PRISONERS OF WAR. If it were up to me, we would have got or not got the info out of them, their head would be severed, put in a drop box and parachuted in over the caves as a clear warning. His body goes through the pork rendering plant ala pork rinds. Which is probably why they wont let me sit judgement on a case The BEST thing Obama could do with Afghanistan, is let the Russians back in on a coalition; they are still pizzed over the first time through. They will not play political correct p#ssy foot democracy building. And since we arent supplying the Muja anymore with Stingers... get them Hinds back up in the air | ||
| Madduck |
If you look through any World War II history book, you will discover that civilians were routinely targeted. The theory was that you could destroy a nations will to resist by destroying its infrastructure including civilians. Germans air raids on London and our fire bombings of Dresden and Hamburg are excellent examples of the targeting of civilian populations. The only such bombing campaigns that suceeded were Hiroshima and Nagasaki, They indeed did destroy a nations will to resist. The russians military theory follows that of the Mongols and they show no hesitancy about targeting civilian populations. The US seems to be the only nation really working at not slaughtering civilians and ours is a pretty recent conversion. Most of our enemies in the middle east think of civilians as human shields, which is a pretty effective tactic to use against an army such as ours. War is a messy business and winning is your best option. How you get there is going to be problematic for all sorts of reasons. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
When you absolutely positively need to destroy ever ground target in sight... and you dont care about political correct motives  my senior paper was on the tactics and damages that the squadrons of Hinds did on Afghanistan, and what the effectiveness of the Stinger Missile system was against them. They could and did, level entire villages on a routine basis. | ||
| Hootowl |
"If you look through any World War II history book, you will discover that civilians were routinely targeted." Absolutely correct. We killed more people when we firebombed Japanese cities than we did with nukes. We never firebombed Hiroshima...it was being saved for later. | ||
| Aesquire |
By a part of the Geneva convention that we did NOT sign, these terrorists get full protection under international law. We did NOT sign that part because it was a ploy by the Soviet Union to encourage & protect terrorists that they used, and still use, (though the country changed size, shape, name, and, in theory, nature ), to attack their enemies. ( also a few people in Congress are NOT idiots) Acts of war committed by minions are still acts of war. It is a great pity that few of our leader had the balls to say that. Regan is one of the few. ( I have my issues with Regan but that's not one of them. Besides, he's dead, so I'm not going to attack his memory, I'll save that for Teddy Kennedy ) Sept. 11 2001, the embassy bombings in africa, the U.S.S. Cole, and many other such acts of murder, destruction & mayhem against us, western civilization, and the freedom of religion, come from no single identifiable nation state. For that reason, and cowardice on the part of many politicians, we deliberately did not publicly accept that we were at war with these people. That was, and is, wrong, stupid, and insane. Most of the 9/11 murderers came from Saudi Arabia, much of the terrorism in the middle east is sponsored by Iran, and the violent sectarian religious basis for this is deeply rooted in those countries and Pakistan. Saudi Arabia is the richest home of the schools that teach death, shame, revenge, nihilism and little else. It Is a perversion of faith, a religion of murder, suicide and sadism. Those who practice it call it Islam, and intimidate those who disagree who ARE islamic. There ARE nation states behind much of the "terrorism" we face on the Afghanistan, and, especially Iraq fronts, of the SAME WAR. Iran is, as near as I can tell, the #1 player, but there are others. The bad guys know that leftist & pacifist fools will deny war between us & them exist. They count on fools to give them the edge. Do not be such a fool, please. The actual status, legally, of the detained at Gitmo, is pirate, and subject to death by hanging, preferably off a yardarm. They are NOT criminals, they wage war, ask THEM. They are not prisoners of war, since they deliberately hide behind civilians & children. Many, if not Most of the "civilians" U.S. troops are accused of killing in the last decade, are not civilians, they are murderous scum. Take a look WHERE your news comes from. The company that supplies news footage from the middle east is owned by Saudi Arabia, and their job is to put these a--holes, and islam in general in the best possible light. Don't believe me? They are based in England, look it up for yourself. You've been getting enemy propaganda with breakfast for years. Suckers. http://www.pjtv.com/video/Afterburner_with_Bill_Wh ittle/Memo_to_Obama%3A_Detainees_Are_Not_Soldiers% 2C_They_Are_the_Weapons_in_This_War/2716/ | ||
| Drkside79 |
I would like to go back to my original statement and say that i would like to see them drawn and quartered. I am trying to explain why they are not being tried by tribunal. I am not saying i agree with it. Also it is pointless to debate this topic as none of us has any say in it. | ||
| Aesquire |
Other than stuff we can afford to buy, or teach our children ourselves, what DO we have any say in? Drawn & quartered? I think we'd have to send them to England. I don't think that was ever used here after 1776, ( I could be wrong, please correct me ) but it was quite popular over there. See "Braveheart". Is it still on the books there? Will it be televised? How much will the DVD's go for? So much to debate. | ||
| Diablo1 |
Can someone explain to me why anyone voted for this moron who is destroying our country? Sure, because Bush and Cheney screwed the country up so badly, that a Republican couldn't get elected to dogcatcher. And to top it off, the Republicans put up the ticket of McCain and Palin. You remember McCain...he's the one that said the economy was strong.....when the banks were about to collapse.}} | ||
| M2me |
For example if the Klan decides to blow up a building in France does that mean the USA is at war with France. No it means that the people responsible are dealt with by the French however the Frogs see fit. That's a very good point. That's why I put "war on terror" in quotes. We can't be at war with a tactic or an idea. Who will sign the peace treaty? When will the war ever end? Was the Oklahoma City bombing an act of war? Why wasn't McVeigh shipped off to Gitmo and labeled an "unlawful combatant"? 3,000 people were murdered on 9/11. Those who were accessories to the crime must be indicted and tried in a civilian court of law. Justice must be served. If that isn't done then America isn't America anymore. | ||
| Aesquire |
McViegh was an American Citizen, who had sworn an oath to uphold the Constitution, fighting his own government in a stupid act of revolutionary protest. Civilian court, execution for mass murder makes sense there, Though if I had been his lawyer I would have insisted on insanity defense. A Foreign enemy whose goal is to enslave or murder all who are not them. Declared war on us, and how does this fit into civilian court? KSM is a foreigner who declared war on the U.S. Not alone, but in a group, ( even though said group is not a nation/state ) and waged war in a vile manner, and wishes to be a martyr to advance his cause. Giving him a forum to advance his cause seems dumb to me. I have heard some talking heads say that this is meant to be a trial for Bush & Cheney, and is ideological in nature. That's what it looks like to me too. I totally agree with the stupidity of the name "war on terror". I thought it was dumb us at the time, still do. What would you call it, M2me? Crusade? ( Bush got reamed for that one ) Anyone know what to call a war on an amorphous set of groups not on a map? | ||
| Aesquire |
Diablo1, I very nearly completely agree with you. I differ only in who put McCain up for the job, I think that was more the media ( mostly Dem ) and Dem voters in NH that, wisely, thought McCain was easier to beat. "Country Club Republicans" too, but I don't like them anyway. As to Bush & Cheney screwing the country up, Yes, as long as you share that blame with Congress, who voted to spend all that money. Want to bet the current Prez. voted to spend it too? You do have the essentials here though, Republican & independent voters, torqued at the deficits went for the hopey changey guy. ( by the time of the election Iraq was pretty settled and way down on anyones chart, Afghanistan was quiet until Obama made it his "good war" ) Hey, If it had been Lieberman, I'd have voted for him over McCain. Reindog, It is insulting to call Obama a moron, please don't. He is the president, freely elected. ( even if I do disagree with his stated goals ) Let's please leave insults to the "useful idiots" who think socialism is cool. (Message edited by aesquire on November 19, 2009) | ||
| Reindog |
OK...Obama is a maroon. | ||
| Madduck |
Lets all call Obama what he really is, ENGLISH. At birth his father was English, english law states that the son of an Englishman is also English, no matter the location of his birth. Now we have an argument worth fighting over. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
Insanity defense, What a crock of shiate. I want to personally draw and quarter the judge that made that a precedent. The lawyer defending the 'whacknut' can go next. Then the whack nut. Heres the shiat. You didnt act reasonable, you didnt act as a responsible sane citizen would have; that does not make you INSANE. It makes you an idiot that is chained to whim and emotion. If you want to use the insanity plea, you should get full boat max charge to a mental institution. At the time that sentence is up, you are then tried Criminally for the original event. Still not sane? Back you go. Have fun with the meds and the shock therapy. And while we are at it, since we are all about to have manditory health care, I would like to see one benefit from it. Mandatory Genetic Coding, Recording, Sampling and typing. Yep, your DNA is on file. (you wont hear Obama pushing anything of that sort, it might actually clear up alot of the justice system) | ||
| Thumper74 |
Sorry I'm late to the party! It took a bit to read through the entire thread, then let it digest. There's one point that I didn't see in any of the previous posts. National security. In a criminal case, I believe that the defendant has access to view all evidence against him. In this case, the evidence against the defendant may be classified information. If we follow how normal criminal prosecutions go, as far as rights, evidence collection, access to a speedy trial, etc. these guys will walk, after viewing classified information. Then they would be free to sue for wrongful imprisonment, excessive force, etc. Potentially, these guys could walk after having access to classified information and with a pocket full of cash to take back to the middle east. My view point is this: This was an act of war. Jihad. Ask them yourself. It's a Holy War. These guys are not US citizens and should not be afforded the rights of citizens. They hate our way of life and want, with every thread of their being, to destroy us. Then they get access to our system to make a mockery and twist it to their advantage... They should be subject to a military tribunal and the punishment that follows. ...but... My gut tells me that this isn't about the prisoners. | ||
| Fast1075 |
Thanks for the pic Slicker...never saw a really good pic of a Hind before...pretty cool platform....shame choppers are so vulnerable to shoulder launched missles.. | ||
| Aesquire |
You got it Thumper. Actually I didn't mention the discovery process in the first post because I thought it was Either obvious & well stated in the media, or the point of the show trial process, to further wreck the Intel community for partisan/ideological gain. Of course that's paranoid, no patriotic American A.G. would do such a thing. Why, such a piece of scum would do other shady things, like get pardons for terrorists to help elect a carpetbagger for Senator, or pardon a tax cheat for huge donations. I mean, let's not be silly.  It's not like the real point of these trials are to put the previous administration on trial & not the confessed murderers, is it? Revealing is the A.G.'s stammering comments to Sen. Graham that even if KSM is acquitted, he isn't going to be let go. So "Justice" isn't part of the package, no matter what. http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=Y2YyNzVlODFjZ DI1OGI2NWRhNzg2NzU2NGIxZTllNDM= | ||
| Brumbear |
I think they should just forgo all the hoopla drag em out in the back of the Gitmo jail tie em to a post and shoot the ••••••• and be done with it. Don't even televise it and say nothing more of it. No martyrs they simply fade away. There is no amount of justice to make up for what they have done. All it does it bring up pain and suffering all over again be done with them. | ||
| Aesquire |
I, personally would prefer hanging to firing squad, but it is not emotionally healthy to fantasize about such things. It leads to festering anger, not a good thing. There are historical examples of reducing or stopping religious war by spreading rumors of desecration. False, but widely spread stories of troops dipping their bullets in pig blood, for example, proved effective in the past, but are oh, so, NOT PC, and not acceptable today. I have sometimes said that the appropriate treatment of those who "profane the faith" of islam ( by terrorism ) is to do to them that which is unacceptable to their faith. A better strategy in Iraq, I thought, was to patrol the border with great intensity, ( developing & using such techniques on our southern border in training exercises together with the border patrol. No problem with posse comitatus in border defense, unlike the travesty of Waco ) with armed intruders from Iran caught, destroyed & burned so that the smoke from their pyres ( hygiene is important ) visible to Iranian posts. I thought it might have a useful effect. It may yet be useful. If CAIR or other islamic propaganda groups complain, confront them with the choice, either these people do not represent islam, therefor ( for example ) cremation of terrorists remains is fine, or they do represent islam, and those groups defending them are also subject to the condemnation & destruction by western civilization. ( you know, us. ) That falls under the pipe dream category, unfortunately. Pity, since these groups are fund raisers and facilitators for international terrorism & islamic fascist expansion. (Message edited by aesquire on November 21, 2009) | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
Pity, since these groups are fund raisers and facilitators for international terrorism & islamic fascist Yea, that and the Democrat Party | ||
| Cityxslicker |
I hope someone introduces him to a long upstanding tradition... The Jack Ruby Special. |
