| Author | Message | ||
     Jaimec |
Court posted a link to a blog that accurately predicted Harley shutting Buell down a month before it actually happened. What struck me (and no one else has commented on this) in the blog was a revelation that Erik was essentially FORCED to use that aging lump of a Sportster motor in his bikes, and that it wasn't by choice. I'm surprised that I haven't seen more discussion on that issue alone. It increased my respect for the man knowing that he was fully aware the bikes he was building would never be as competitive in the performance arena as the competition. I also suspect that all of the positive things he said in interviews was Erik doing his best to be a "good company man." I'm also glad we got a chance to get a glimpse of what was possible with his engineering talent AND a competitive engine in the 1125R, but I'm also wondering if using that engine was the final nail in his coffin? | ||
| 4cammer |
I love the aging lump of a (much modified and improved) Sportster motor in my XB9R.... | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
There was a thread on this about a month or so before HD dumped the company. He was using HD motors before they bought a majority. Nobody forced him to use them then. What bikes was he forced to use HD motors on? The XB's? I was told the 1125 saved him in 08. | ||
| Jaimec |
It increased his sales, but apparently also increased the animosity with the Harley executives. As has been discussed many times, those clowns don't follow business logic... they've allegedly put personal vendetta ahead of company profits. | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
That would be true IF Buell was making a profit. HD knew that Buell was going after Rotax for a motor, a motor they couldn't supply, they had to OK it just as they had to ok the change in Marketing. Why would there be a vendetta? | ||
| Court |
>>>Nobody forced him to use them then. Kinda. The Sportster motor was used, starting in 1987 (actually the XR-1000 motor) to take advantage of a loop hole in the certification process. It would cost MILLIONS (remember we are talking about a company with less than $5,000 in the bank at that time) to get a NEW motor certified. There was however a little known exemption where you could submit an affidavit that you were using an already certified motor with no material modifications. The Screaming Eagle air cleaner and SuperTrap exhaust allowed it ti slip past the feds. Harley-Davidson was one of the companies that submitted a proposal to construct the Helicon motor. Their manufacturing costs, burdened presumably by rampant overhead, made Harley absurdly high and Rotax won the contract. This effect impacts HD products as well but a $1,500 increase in the cost of the motor is easier to hide in a $25,000 bike. Someday you'll hear at least 3 fantastic stories about HD and building motors. You can bet that some folks at HD . . . . we unhappy about seeing someone design a far superior motor . . . for about 12% of what they put in the VR and about 5% of what they had in the VROD . . . that cost a fraction of what they did to build and was far superior. In some organizations having a better idea . . .doing something better and more efficiently is celebrated . . at HD it's a threat and evokes sabotage. | ||
| Patches |
He wasn't FORCED to use the Sportster Engine. He could have went with Japanese, British, or Italian Motorcycle engines just as he did with the 1125r/cr. What it was is Harley Davidson had Deep Pockets to Fund Erik Buell's dream of building Sport Bikes. | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
"You can bet that some folks at HD . . . . we unhappy about seeing someone design a far superior motor" That I know for a fact, there were some pissed off engineers and designers who really wanted that motor. Another question would have been...where the hell would they have built it? KC? | ||
| Hughlysses |
Court- I've heard that the Helicon actually costs Buell LESS than the XB engine. Based on what you say above I can believe it. | ||
| Midknyte |
I love the aging lump of a (much modified and improved) Sportster motor in my XB9R.... I dig it too. Like so much else in the bike, it just works. | ||
| Greg_e |
That aging lump would have been better if it was at least water cooled. Would have been nice to have over head cams too, and maybe 4 valves per cylinder. | ||
| Court |
>>>That I know for a fact, there were some pissed off engineers and designers who really wanted that motor. Same bunch that went 2 years over schedule and 3X budget on the XR1200R . . . they are STILL straightening it out. If you talk to one of them sometime . . . see if you can get their take on why . . . after months and months of "it's almost ready . . really it is" . . they still couldn't get that baby out the door. One thing I can say . . . . when you get a committee that big together and they are all scared of each other . . you get some really comical compromises happening. Trying designing a motorcycle sometime . . . using the criteria not of what WORKS or is RIGHT but based on what makes no one involved look like they weren't right about something or that makes sure no one is accountable. I think they should introduce a model called the "Unanimous Consensus". No one has the balls to say "I think we can do better" and they love the phrase . "that's good enough". They're cute in a away . . . I feel lucky to have been riding them in the time folks tolerated that crap. | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
"Same bunch that went 2 years over schedule and 3X budget on the XR1200R . . . they are STILL straightening it out." You mean the count down time clocks on the walls at the PDC didn't work?? | ||
| Jaimec |
I think Court already established that Buell WAS turning a profit, but their profit was a mere raindrop in an ocean of Harley bleeding. | ||
| Jaimec |
By the way, Harley's FIRST attempt at building the Helicon motor got subverted into the Revolution motor that was too damned big and heavy for Erik's purposes. | ||
| Tpoppa |
. . . using the criteria not of what WORKS or is RIGHT but based on what makes no one involved look like they weren't right about something or that makes sure no one is accountable. Isn't that the definition of Corporate Group Think? It has been used to effectively water down & homogenize innovative ideas for years. | ||
| 4cammer |
"That aging lump would have been better if it was at least water cooled. Would have been nice to have over head cams too, and maybe 4 valves per cylinder." (See 1125R/CR) Um.....no. Then it would be a Ducati. And I love Ducati bikes....but mostly the ones w/o water in them.... | ||
| Cityxslicker |
I will ride mine until the wheels fall off (again) and then I will put it in a Grand National Flat track frame and ride it until it implodes. | ||
| Davegess |
"Court- I've heard that the Helicon actually costs Buell LESS than the XB engine. Based on what you say above I can believe it" From what I know about the cost of the Sportster mill I have little trouble believing it either. “He wasn't FORCED to use the Sportster Engine. He could have went with Japanese, British, or Italian Motorcycle engines just as he did with the 1125r/cr. What it was is Harley Davidson had Deep Pockets to Fund Erik Buell's dream of building Sport Bikes” Not exactly true but not really wrong either. From his time working at Harley he had the contacts and knowledge needed to use the XR1000 engine. At the time, 1985, it was still a pretty powerful engine compared to the new inline 4s. Our book goes into great detail on this but the short version is that Erik felt strongly about American manufacturing – no news there - AND he felt in the fight chassis the engine could win Superbike races including the Daytona 200. Kevin Cameron’s Cycle story at the time lays out a lot of details about how this would be possible. You have to remember that superbikes in 1985 were nasty, ill-handling pigs that had way too much power for the tires or the chassis; lots of fun to watch as a result but not easy to ride fast. The second part of the equation was that using that engine would give Erik entry into the H-D dealer network and using many H-D parts would make supporting the bike easier than if dealers had to stock all sorts of special stuff. He also got unofficial support from within H-D. No direct financial support and it took an almighty effort to force the door open even a little; again lots of detail on this in the book. It is true to say that H-D has been hugely helpful in Buell getting to this point BUT it has always been a double edged sword. Harleys “deep pockets” did nothing to help Erik start and build this company to the point were H-D did begin to help. To top it off every infusion of money the Erik got cost him the proverbial “pound of flesh”. Nothing about H-Ds support was easy or painless. They were not so much the rich uncle as the wicked stepmother who dribbles out just enough to keep you alive but not enough to let you prosper. | ||
| Davegess |
BTW check out Dales blog today  | ||
| Tq_freak |
got a link? | ||
| Rambuell |
So there is hope, even if it is not American! | ||
| Wolfridgerider |
I can say this, however: I do know that there are a couple of people outside Milwaukee who are very interested in talking to Erik Buell about…ummm…pursuing new challenges. As soon as his 15-month non-compete agreement with H-D expires, of course Can we get a countdown calendar for that date? Kinda reminds me of Andy Dupree crawling out of the sewer pipe in Shawshank Redemption.... Put Erik in Andy's place and instead of the prison in the background its H-D's building on Juneau ave.... | ||
| Rambuell |
http://dalefranks.com/cycles/ | ||
| Eboos |
This is like crack. I have been reading these threads nonstop for the past 2 days. | ||
| Mtch |
the original blog http://dalefranks.com/cycles/?p=995 | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
"I think Court already established that Buell WAS turning a profit, but their profit was a mere raindrop in an ocean of Harley bleeding." Dave Gess said Buell came close to turning a profit ONE year. If Buell was a cash cow, HD would still be milking it. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Some of you might also be interested in the thread Dale started at sport-touring.net to go along with the original "Buell in trouble" article: http://www.sport-touring.net/forums/index.php/topi c,44119.0.html | ||
| Krassh |
"As soon as his 15-month non-compete agreement with H-D expires, of course" Unless he starts making over weight cruisers what competition? | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
I can see EB starting up again with BRP. I'm sorta surprised they didn't buy MV Agusta yet. |
